Need hydraulics tutorial

[ShaunBlake]

I'm getting ready to add some functionality to my {B6100} tractor's hydraulics. It has a FEL and I plan to add a 3rd function to that. I will need to keep the lift and curl, and expect to use the 3rd function -- let's call it squeeze, to distinguish them -- primarily with lift so I can envision levers for squeeze, lift, and curl side-by-side, and easily combine sqeeze and lift with one hand.

However (yep, always a "however" with me! <sigh>), I have an aversion to adding extra levers. I've read about controls that perform two functions (maybe they were referred to as 4-port? At the time it didn't occur to me that I might ever need such, so didn't make notes or save the links) and I've started looking for a control that would replace my lift with a lift/squeeze. (I'm envisioning a control like I've used on JD450 BHs: moving a lever front-to-back and the boom is moved in or out; swing the same lever side-to-side and the bucket curls in or out.) I'm sure that's common on lots of tractors, but isn't something I've found yet.

I may have found the type of control in a Bucher HdM 11p/4.

I found the Bucher paper on the HdM controls, but I can't read (for comprehension) the schematics or the specifications. So: is this control the type that I would use to get two functions in one control? And if the type, would it be an appropriate choice, given that this one is a 12GPM, while my loader is, I believe, at most 5GPM.

All info, suggestions, links, threads, tutorials, and sources deeply appreciated!

 

[Kennyd4110]

My suggestion is a electric diverter valve, it will effectively "split" or "divert" your dump/curl circuit into a new circuit for the new function. Your machine I assume has very low flowing hydraulics (couldn't find a spec), most likely around 3gpm so being able to control three functions at once is just not going to happen.

Brian at Fitrite Hydraulics sells them, as well as us in a DIY kit form that includes the electrics.

A search of the term "diverter" will turn up some other reading as well. This link might work: http://www.orangetractortalks.com/forums/search.php?searchid=1196853

 

[ShaunBlake]

Aw, heck! I guess I forgot you had some hydraulic products -- now I recall putting your pressure gauge on my wish list. <sigh>

Well, thanks for your response and advice. I had been thinking of going to the electric over hydro but I don't care for the either-or functionality. You're right, the pump is pretty low pressure/flow: 6 GPM at 2700 RPM (and IIRC, 2000 PSI). that being said, it seems that using lift+squeeze (IOW, both ports in one spool) would work fairly well because the lift+curl currently works well under load. (A SCUT load, not a loader load, or even a skid steer load!) I wouldn't expect to be able to perform all three functions simultaneously with full power and speed; I'm just looking to add the third as seamlessly as possible.

Hope that makes sense. If it does, does it change the picture?

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Here is another option:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-SPOOL-25-...736?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f362e5120

 

[Kennyd4110]

Those valves are nice, but they are HUGE!. You'd be at $500 just getting the boot and adapting those large ports down to something a small sCUT can use.

 

[ShaunBlake]

Here is another option:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-SPOOL-25-...736?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f362e5120

That monster is awesome!

Those valves are nice, but they are HUGE!. You'd be at $500 just getting the boot and adapting those large ports down to something a small sCUT can use.

And it's a Prince. (With Surplus Center's warranty, but...) And would break the bank.

But thank you both for your continued guidance!

So, is my idea workable? Would this type of control permit me to keep the current functions and add a third one without adding a third lever, or having to choose one spool or the other?

Wouldn't the Bucher let me lift-and-sqeeze (or curl-and-squeeze)?

 

[Kennyd4110]

That valve you linked is just two regular 2-spool joystick valves married together, much like you'd see on a backhoe. I adds a second lever that you said you don't want so I am unclear as to what your asking.

It is also not stated if this valve is Open or Closed center, you'll need Open.

Do you have a joystick now for your FEL, or is a two-lever control?

Let me be pointed if I may: If $500 will "break the bank" as you stated, then you should just give up now. Any solution to add a third function will easily cost that once you add in all the fittings, hoses, QD's, switches-wire-fuses (if going electric) ect that will be needed to make it all work.
There is simply no way of getting around the fact the only thing cheap about hydraulics are o-rings and advice here.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Let me be pointed if I may: If $500 will "break the bank" as you stated, then you should just give up now. Any solution to add a third function will easily cost that once you add in all the fittings, hoses, QD's, switches-wire-fuses (if going electric) ect that will be needed to make it all work.
There is simply no way of getting around the fact the only thing cheap about hydraulics are o-rings and advice here.

I 100% second that statement!

 

[bxray]

According to the flow schematic on page 8 the valve is open flow from 'P' to 'T' in the center position.
'T' will have to be plumbed the the power beyond.

It does not have a float position.

One stick can control lift/curl and the second stick can control the squish function, you will have to plug the unused ports.
Do you have two sticks now?

So you will have to use both levers at once to lift/squish or curl/squish.

Plus as stated costs would add up quick.
So you will have to plan out the whole project to get the close to total cost. Because there will be unseen parts.


Ray

 

[ShaunBlake]

That valve you linked is just two regular 2-spool joystick valves married together, much like you'd see on a backhoe. I adds a second lever that you said you don't want so I am unclear as to what your asking.

It is also not stated if this valve is Open or Closed center, you'll need Open.

Do you have a joystick now for your FEL, or is a two-lever control?

Let me be pointed if I may: If $500 will "break the bank" as you stated, then you should just give up now. Any solution to add a third function will easily cost that once you add in all the fittings, hoses, QD's, switches-wire-fuses (if going electric) ect that will be needed to make it all work.
There is simply no way of getting around the fact the only thing cheap about hydraulics are o-rings and advice here.

Kennyd4110, thanks for your explanations, you're helping me understand this simple (!) issue. Sadly, the more I understand, the greater my confusion.

I'm sorry that I've also confused you. I hope that I wouldn't be doing that if I knew the correct names/terms for the controls I think I want. My FEL has a two-spool block with two leavers. No joystick. What I hope to do is change the existing setup to one that would provide lift, and squeeze, with one leaver, and curl with a second lever. (Or combine squeeze with curl <shrug>)

It seems that your control would add a third leaver for the third function. If I can't get the "married together" ability that you describe (exactly what I'm seeking), I would prefer to use a switch/solenoid than another spool and leaver. So, after all those words, my objective: to get three bi-directional functions controlled by two leavers. Have I made it more clear, or is this objective still unclear -- I realize it ignores mechanisms, of which I am totally ignorant.

And let me say that I am very grateful for your pointed comment: I would much prefer a little discomfort now than a painful awakening later.

 

[ShaunBlake]

According to the flow schematic on page 8 the valve is open flow from 'P' to 'T' in the center position.
'T' will have to be plumbed the the power beyond.

Thank you; although I don't understand what you are saying, I get your point, and appreciate the information.

It does not have a float position.

I gathered that I would have to give up float but since it doesn't work the way I'd like, it's not really a sacrifice.

Do you have two sticks now?

Yes.

Because there will be unseen parts.


Just kidding! The 'unseen parts' part is my norm.

Thanks, Ray, that helps a lot!

 

[bxray]

You have one pump and it suplies all hydraulic functions.So when the fel is not using it the power will be passed on to the next item like 3ph.
Think of it as a series circuit.

Not including the cylinder hoses you will have three hoses.
1 from pump
1 to 3ph ( power beyond)
1 return to the tank ( used for the float funtion)

So it will take some planning and most likley o shucks I got the hose in the wrong place.

Yoi may want to. Supply some pictures and maybe a circuit drawing so those with al little more edumakation can help you ciffer it!

Ray

 

[Kennyd4110]

I'm sorry that I've also confused you. I hope that I wouldn't be doing that if I knew the correct names/terms for the controls I think I want. My FEL has a two-spool block with two leavers. No joystick. What I hope to do is change the existing setup to one that would provide lift, and squeeze, with one leaver, and curl with a second lever. (Or combine squeeze with curl <shrug>)

No worries, I got it now...
What you want is completely non-standard, and quite honestly a bad way to setup for a FEL/grapple or 3rd function combo. From where I sit, you have two good options:

1) One modernizes your machine so it's like all sCUT's and CUT's sold today, it also adds functionality and ergonomics with a joystick control, but unfortunately at a higher cost. This would involve adding a joystick like HIW linked below, or a smaller one and then add a diverter or true 3rd function solenoid valve into the main hydraulic flow of the machine.

2) The other option just adds to what you have, keeping the antiquated but functional two-lever FEL control you have but adding a electric diverter as I mentioned above. This diverter is simple, cost effective, and could easily be transferred onto a new machine should you ever upgrade in the future. A diverter does not plumb into the tractors main system, but rather it plumbs in AFTER your FEL valve and simply splits the dump/curl function into a separate one like the open/"squeeze" of a grapple.

More "pointed" reality here, is that your working with a 30+ year old machine with very limited lift capacities, not sure what the loader is rated for but the 3PH is only 400lbs according to tractordata. Also, if its not a HST machine than the added usefulness of a grapple will work you to death with the clutch and gear changes, while steering with no power assist, and operating two levers for the FEL. Every heard the expression "one arm paper hanger"? (Sorry, just having a little fun at your expense, I mean no harm)

It seems that your control would add a third leaver for the third function.

Not sure what you mean here, I sell a custom diverter setup, nothing with levers?