MS5660 Hydraulic Pump

[Slick75]

I have a 2017 MS5660 tractor that I bought new and now has around 950 hours.

One piece of equipment I bought at the same time is a Lane Shark mower that mounts on the loader and is hydraulic driven. If you've never heard of them I highly recommend looking into them. And no, I have no financial ties to them, they're just awesome assets if you do any kind of property maintenance.

So anyhow, the Lane Shark has its own plumbing to the tractor hydraulics independent of the the grapple hydraulics. The grapple runs of an electric solenoid valve with open/close, the Lane Shark gets its pressure supply from the rear hydraulic remote and returns straight to the hydraulic sump- kind of a high-flow arrangement.

When I first bought everything if the Lane Shark blades got bound it would automatically kick out the hydraulic handle. However, it no longer does this. You can literally stall the blades completely and it will just keep pumping until you manually disengage the hydraulic handle.

I'm also experiencing a loss of power on the mower. It is normally capable of chewing up to 4" trees into toothpicks, now a thick patch of weeds will slow the blades and eventually stall them.

I've been trying to troubleshoot but I've just about exhausted the extent of my knowledge. I've changed the hydraulic oil and filters with no change.

I'm down to either blown seals in the Lane Shark motor not allowing the pressure to reach normal levels before bypassing. The other thought is the tractor hydraulic pump. So far I have not had any issues with other hydraulic attachments or systems. The grapple functions normally except for bleeding pressure (I expect a leaking load hold block), the 3-point hitch lifts and holds my 7ft bush hog and 10 ft disc with no issues and will hold them for days.

So the big question... WHERE IS THE HYRAULIC PUMP!! I would love to be able to do some light poking and prodding on the pump but I'm not even 100% sure where to look for it. I found what I THINK is it near the hydraulic filters on the right hand side of the transmission, but I don't know for sure if that is the pump or something transmission related.

I'm not eager to take thectractor to the shop, been told it could be 2 to 3 weeks before anyone can even charge me to check pressures, much less order and install parts and I'm looking at a minimum of $1500 just for the pump, I shutter to even think about labor. If the pump is accessible without dismantling half the tractor I can remove and install it but I have to know what I'm looking for before I can make that determination.

 

[TheOldHokie]

I have a 2017 MS5660 tractor that I bought new and now has around 950 hours.

One piece of equipment I bought at the same time is a Lane Shark mower that mounts on the loader and is hydraulic driven. If you've never heard of them I highly recommend looking into them. And no, I have no financial ties to them, they're just awesome assets if you do any kind of property maintenance.

So anyhow, the Lane Shark has its own plumbing to the tractor hydraulics independent of the the grapple hydraulics. The grapple runs of an electric solenoid valve with open/close, the Lane Shark gets its pressure supply from the rear hydraulic remote and returns straight to the hydraulic sump- kind of a high-flow arrangement.

When I first bought everything if the Lane Shark blades got bound it would automatically kick out the hydraulic handle. However, it no longer does this. You can literally stall the blades completely and it will just keep pumping until you manually disengage the hydraulic handle.

I'm also experiencing a loss of power on the mower. It is normally capable of chewing up to 4" trees into toothpicks, now a thick patch of weeds will slow the blades and eventually stall them.

I've been trying to troubleshoot but I've just about exhausted the extent of my knowledge. I've changed the hydraulic oil and filters with no change.

I'm down to either blown seals in the Lane Shark motor not allowing the pressure to reach normal levels before bypassing. The other thought is the tractor hydraulic pump. So far I have not had any issues with other hydraulic attachments or systems. The grapple functions normally except for bleeding pressure (I expect a leaking load hold block), the 3-point hitch lifts and holds my 7ft bush hog and 10 ft disc with no issues and will hold them for days.

So the big question... WHERE IS THE HYRAULIC PUMP!! I would love to be able to do some light poking and prodding on the pump but I'm not even 100% sure where to look for it. I found what I THINK is it near the hydraulic filters on the right hand side of the transmission, but I don't know for sure if that is the pump or something transmission related.

I'm not eager to take thectractor to the shop, been told it could be 2 to 3 weeks before anyone can even charge me to check pressures, much less order and install parts and I'm looking at a minimum of $1500 just for the pump, I shutter to even think about labor. If the pump is accessible without dismantling half the tractor I can remove and install it but I have to know what I'm looking for before I can make that determination.

I have no idea where the pump is located. But it sounds like you suspect the Lane Shark circuit is not generating full pressure but the others are. That sounds very consistent with the self canceling valve not kicking out.

Since only one circuit seems to be having pressure problems I would suggest you start your pressure testing on the motor end of that circuit and work backwards in the circuit towards the pump. That is all essily accesible and I suspect you will find the problem pretty early on in that circuit.

If the Lane Shark is connected with quick couplers just disconnect it and see if the valve cancels when you shift it. If it does the problem is in the Lane Shark. If not its in the tractor hydraulics.

Dan

 

[Slick75]

I have no idea where the pump is located. But it sounds like you suspect the Lane Shark circuit is not generating full pressure but the others are. That sounds very consistent with the self canceling valve not kicking out.

Since only one circuit seems to be having pressure problems I would suggest you start your pressure testing on the motor end of that circuit and work backwards in the circuit towards the pump. That is all essily accesible and I suspect you will find the problem pretty early on in that circuit.

If the Lane Shark is connected with quick couplers just disconnect it and see if the valve cancels when you shift it. If it does the problem is in the Lane Shark. If not its in the tractor hydraulics.

Dan

Well as complicated as it sounds the circuit itself is pretty simple.

I have 2 QD blocks mounted by the right hand loader frame. One is the elect solenoid for the grapple, the other is for the mower, both lead to the attachment QDs on the front of the loader. I simply have to move the hoses from one block to the other depending on what I'm using.

Unfortunately the grapple and loader are my only two hydraulic atta

I have no idea where the pump is located. But it sounds like you suspect the Lane Shark circuit is not generating full pressure but the others are. That sounds very consistent with the self canceling valve not kicking out.

Since only one circuit seems to be having pressure problems I would suggest you start your pressure testing on the motor end of that circuit and work backwards in the circuit towards the pump. That is all essily accesible and I suspect you will find the problem pretty early on in that circuit.

If the Lane Shark is connected with quick couplers just disconnect it and see if the valve cancels when you shift it. If it does the problem is in the Lane Shark. If not its in the tractor hydraulics.

Dan

Actually I have tried that... in an accidental sort of way. It took me a little while to remember to move the hoses between the 2 QD blocks when I first got the tractor and it was usually when connecting the Lane Shark. Unfortunately, even brand new it wouldn't kick out. Oddly enough it only kicked out when the Lane Shark was properly hooked up and in a stall situation. Still scratch my head over that too.

I know the tractor flow rate is supposed to be 11 gpm (Lane Shark requires 9 gpm), do you happen to know what the pressure is supposed to be? I don't remember seeing pressure in my manual and it's gone missing during a recent move. Still stashed in a box somewhere.

 

[Slick75]

Sorry, don't know how that partial post appeared. I had started it and scrapped it.... I thought. Just disregard that.

 

[lugbolt]

couple things

On the mower, are the blades any good? Dull blades take a TON more torque to cut through stuff. If they're new/ok then look further.

Here is my take on the whole "lane shark" thing. These tractors as well as most of the smaller Kubota L and MX series and even some of the M series tractors, they are not designed to run a continuous hydraulic motor. They are designed with normal implements in mind, loaders, backhoes, that kind of thing--stuff that doesn't use a hydraulic motor. They're designed around those most common attachments and implements such that the oil cooler (if it has one....some don't) will sufficiently cool the hydraulic fluid to run those attachments or implements. With a hydraulic motor, you are effectively shearing the fluid constantly and even moreso under a load, which means heat-and lots of it-has to be dealt with. With that in mind the hyd motor attachments such as Lane Shark will never tell you that you will need to cut your hyd fluid change interval in HALF, unless you have an aux oil cooler. Very similar to the SVL series guys running them with forestry mulchers continuosly, they heat the oil so much that the oil is junk-unless they put an aux cooler on (and most guys dont). Without the cooler valves stick, components overheat, etc--and I don't know if you're aware, but hydraulic components are super expensive and a lot of times it takes an engineer to figure them out meaning $$$$. BTDT.

So with all that said, you will want to do two things. Perform a hydraulic flow test and a hydraulic pressure test at the lines that are used for your lane shark. If within spec, you will then know that your lane shark's motor is probably failing and I can just about bet you that Lane Shark will deny it's possibility--though I had to replace two of those motors when I was at the dealer. They fought both of them and they were both obvious defects that made it out the door through QC. Now the problem is, not everyone has a flowmeter and to get one, is really expensive. Thus, you have to generally pay someone to do it--if you can find someone who will. The place I worked at didn't have a flowmeter which was a joke I mean you work on tractors but ain't got the tools to diagnose them? So the next thing to do without a flowmeter is to replace parts which almost any owner can do on their own without paying $100+ an hour. That was a big deal, IMO.

 

[TheOldHokie]

Well as complicated as it sounds the circuit itself is pretty simple.

I have 2 QD blocks mounted by the right hand loader frame. One is the elect solenoid for the grapple, the other is for the mower, both lead to the attachment QDs on the front of the loader. I simply have to move the hoses from one block to the other depending on what I'm using.

Unfortunately the grapple and loader are my only two hydraulic atta

Actually I have tried that... in an accidental sort of way. It took me a little while to remember to move the hoses between the 2 QD blocks when I first got the tractor and it was usually when connecting the Lane Shark. Unfortunately, even brand new it wouldn't kick out. Oddly enough it only kicked out when the Lane Shark was properly hooked up and in a stall situation. Still scratch my head over that too.

I know the tractor flow rate is supposed to be 11 gpm (Lane Shark requires 9 gpm), do you happen to know what the pressure is supposed to be? I don't remember seeing pressure in my manual and it's gone missing during a recent move. Still stashed in a box somewhere.

It sounded simple and I thought I understood your hookup but now 9I am confused. You said the Lane Shark runs off the rear hydraulic valve ????

Everything works except the Lane Shark. There is no reason to think its the pump. System pressure on the trsctor is 2190 PSI. Purchase an inexpensive 3000/5000 PSI hydraulic pressure gauge and connect it to the outlet that supplies the LS. Operate the valve and measure outlet pressure. If it is close to that number your pump is fine.

Dan

 

[mcfarmall]

On my 2020 M5660, the hydraulic pump is on the right side of the transmission housing near the filters and it sticks out at a 90⁰ angle. It's driven by a bevel gearset.

 

[GeoHorn]

…
It is normally capable of chewing up to 4" trees into toothpicks,…..
…

I wonder if that statement might not be part of the problem? Here’s what Lane-Shark says about their product:

What can I expect from a Lane Shark brush cutter?
Lane Shark USA guarantees that your unit will easily cut 2-3” diameter limbs, brush, saplings, and underbrush. Our product is not designed to be used as a land clearing unit, it is a land maintaining unit.

I've been trying to troubleshoot but I've just about exhausted the extent of my knowledge..

So the big question... WHERE IS THE HYRAULIC PUMP!! I would love to be able to do some light poking and prodding on the pump but I'm not even 100% sure where to look for it….

I'm not eager to take thectractor to the shop, been told it could be 2 to 3 weeks before anyone can even charge me to check pressures, much less order and install parts and I'm looking at a minimum of $1500 just for the pump, I shutter to even think about labor. If the pump is accessible without dismantling half the tractor I can remove and install it but I have to know what I'm looking for before I can make that determination.

What are you really saying? …that you’re willing to take a chance on spending $1500 on a pump that may not solve a problem you don’t know you have..?? …but you’re not willing to spend a $100 or two for someone knowlegeable and with the equipment to test the system for proper pressures and flows?
Even if you do this yourself you’re going to be down for two weeks either way….
I admire your courage and willingness to dive-in,… but at the level of capability you indicate you have, I’d recommend you take it to the dealer or call another tractor shop, maybe a mobile mechanic.

Here’s a pic of where your pump is located… item 050.
Hope this helps.

 

[Slick75]

couple things

On the mower, are the blades any good? Dull blades take a TON more torque to cut through stuff. If they're new/ok then look further.

Here is my take on the whole "lane shark" thing. These tractors as well as most of the smaller Kubota L and MX series and even some of the M series tractors, they are not designed to run a continuous hydraulic motor. They are designed with normal implements in mind, loaders, backhoes, that kind of thing--stuff that doesn't use a hydraulic motor. They're designed around those most common attachments and implements such that the oil cooler (if it has one....some don't) will sufficiently cool the hydraulic fluid to run those attachments or implements. With a hydraulic motor, you are effectively shearing the fluid constantly and even moreso under a load, which means heat-and lots of it-has to be dealt with. With that in mind the hyd motor attachments such as Lane Shark will never tell you that you will need to cut your hyd fluid change interval in HALF, unless you have an aux oil cooler. Very similar to the SVL series guys running them with forestry mulchers continuosly, they heat the oil so much that the oil is junk-unless they put an aux cooler on (and most guys dont). Without the cooler valves stick, components overheat, etc--and I don't know if you're aware, but hydraulic components are super expensive and a lot of times it takes an engineer to figure them out meaning $$$$. BTDT.

So with all that said, you will want to do two things. Perform a hydraulic flow test and a hydraulic pressure test at the lines that are used for your lane shark. If within spec, you will then know that your lane shark's motor is probably failing and I can just about bet you that Lane Shark will deny it's possibility--though I had to replace two of those motors when I was at the dealer. They fought both of them and they were both obvious defects that made it out the door through QC. Now the problem is, not everyone has a flowmeter and to get one, is really expensive. Thus, you have to generally pay someone to do it--if you can find someone who will. The place I worked at didn't have a flowmeter which was a joke I mean you work on tractors but ain't got the tools to diagnose them? So the next thing to do without a flowmeter is to replace parts which almost any owner can do on their own without paying $100+ an hour. That was a big deal, IMO.

Blades were changed about 2 weeks (8-12 working hours) prior to the issue showing up. They are much heavier blades than the originals. Lane Shark has upgraded blades and carriers twice since I originally bought it.

You hit the nail on the head with the hydraulic fluid, the Lane Shark definitely creates the heat and I probably use it more than it was ever intended, as a matter of fact, I KNOW I do because I am fortunate enough be close enough to the owner's house that I've actually taken to him a couple of times for repairs (my son bent the swing arm then he installed the first blade carrier upgrade for me). That's why I dumped $400 on hydraulic oil change first. Now I'm at a point where it looks like I'm going to spend a minimum of $1500, be it on a new motor or a new hydraulic pump, both are about the same cost. I just want to make sure $1500 doesn't turn into $3000 on a gamble.

On the bright side, I reached out to Lane Shark's support (he didn't even have a support team to start with) last month and after several messages the owner himself got involved and has offered to come to me himself and help me troubleshoot, unfortunately my bout with Covid torpedoed that. Between that and the other repairs he has never given me any problems That's not to say I got free repairs, in fact the only thing I haven't paid for was the first blade upgrade in 2019, but I didn't feel like he charged unreasonable prices. That says a lot to me, but I also realize not everyone gets the same experience. I feel like some of the blames falls on dealers. The salesman nor service techs that I got my tractor from never mentioned the heat issue, they just sold a product. Heck, Lane Shark was so new when I bought it that they didn't even have a manual, theyre were building 5 a week out of his garage. LOL

Anyway, enough of me being an unpaid salesman, I've got to fix my tractor. LOL

So it looks like I'm either giving up my tractor for 2 to 3 weeks for pressure and flow tests or I'm in the market for meters. Much appreciated for the advice.

 

[Slick75]

It sounded simple and I thought I understood your hookup but now 9I am confused. You said the Lane Shark runs off the rear hydraulic valve ????

Everything works except the Lane Shark. There is no reason to think its the pump. System pressure on the trsctor is 2190 PSI. Purchase an inexpensive 3000/5000 PSI hydraulic pressure gauge and connect it to the outlet that supplies the LS. Operate the valve and measure outlet pressure. If it is close to that number your pump is fine.

Dan

Yes, LS gets supply from one of the rear hydraulic ports.

Thanks, those pressures help, now I know what size gauge I need.

 

[TheOldHokie]

Blades were changed about 2 weeks (8-12 working hours) prior to the issue showing up. They are much heavier blades than the originals. Lane Shark has upgraded blades and carriers twice since I originally bought it.

You hit the nail on the head with the hydraulic fluid, the Lane Shark definitely creates the heat and I probably use it more than it was ever intended, as a matter of fact, I KNOW I do because I am fortunate enough be close enough to the owner's house that I've actually taken to him a couple of times for repairs (my son bent the swing arm then he installed the first blade carrier upgrade for me). That's why I dumped $400 on hydraulic oil change first. Now I'm at a point where it looks like I'm going to spend a minimum of $1500, be it on a new motor or a new hydraulic pump, both are about the same cost. I just want to make sure $1500 doesn't turn into $3000 on a gamble.

On the bright side, I reached out to Lane Shark's support (he didn't even have a support team to start with) last month and after several messages the owner himself got involved and has offered to come to me himself and help me troubleshoot, unfortunately my bout with Covid torpedoed that. Between that and the other repairs he has never given me any problems That's not to say I got free repairs, in fact the only thing I haven't paid for was the first blade upgrade in 2019, but I didn't feel like he charged unreasonable prices. That says a lot to me, but I also realize not everyone gets the same experience. I feel like some of the blames falls on dealers. The salesman nor service techs that I got my tractor from never mentioned the heat issue, they just sold a product. Heck, Lane Shark was so new when I bought it that they didn't even have a manual, theyre were building 5 a week out of his garage. LOL

Anyway, enough of me being an unpaid salesman, I've got to fix my tractor. LOL

So it looks like I'm either giving up my tractor for 2 to 3 weeks for pressure and flow tests or I'm in the market for meters. Much appreciated for the advice.

I have a couple nice new glycerkn filled pressure gauges on the shelf - cheap with or without a hose and adapters. An empty 5 gallon bucket and a stop watch is my poor man's flow meter.

Dan

 

[Slick75]

I wonder if that statement might not be part of the problem? Here’s what Lane-Shark says about their product:

What can I expect from a Lane Shark brush cutter?
Lane Shark USA guarantees that your unit will easily cut 2-3” diameter limbs, brush, saplings, and underbrush. Our product is not designed to be used as a land clearing unit, it is a land maintaining unit.



What are you really saying? …that you’re willing to take a chance on spending $1500 on a pump that may not solve a problem you don’t know you have..?? …but you’re not willing to spend a $100 or two for someone knowlegeable and with the equipment to test the system for proper pressures and flows?
Even if you do this yourself you’re going to be down for two weeks either way….
I admire your courage and willingness to dive-in,… but at the level of capability you indicate you have, I’d recommend you take it to the dealer or call another tractor shop, maybe a mobile mechanic.

Here’s a pic of where your pump is located… item 050.
Hope this helps.

No, what I'm saying is I can't afford to drop my tractor off to sit in a yard at one of a half dozen shops that are backed up on work when I have my own farm that needs constant maintenance as well as clients who I also do property maintenance for.

Without getting into my full resume, it's safe to say I have experience operating, maintaining, and repairing hydraulic equipment, a lot of it much bigger than a compact tractor. I just haven't ever changed a hydraulic pump on a Kobota tractor. That doesn't mean I haven't drank and worn my fair share of hydraulic oil.

I wonder if that statement might not be part of the problem? Here’s what Lane-Shark says about their product:

What can I expect from a Lane Shark brush cutter?
Lane Shark USA guarantees that your unit will easily cut 2-3” diameter limbs, brush, saplings, and underbrush. Our product is not designed to be used as a land clearing unit, it is a land maintaining unit.



What are you really saying? …that you’re willing to take a chance on spending $1500 on a pump that may not solve a problem you don’t know you have..?? …but you’re not willing to spend a $100 or two for someone knowlegeable and with the equipment to test the system for proper pressures and flows?
Even if you do this yourself you’re going to be down for two weeks either way….
I admire your courage and willingness to dive-in,… but at the level of capability you indicate you have, I’d recommend you take it to the dealer or call another tractor shop, maybe a mobile mechanic.

Here’s a pic of where your pump is located… item 050.
Hope this helps.

Thanks for the diagram, that's exactly what I was

I have a couple nice new glycerkn filled pressure gauges on the shelf - cheap with or without a hose and adapters. An empty 5 gallon bucket and a stop watch is my poor man's flow meter.

Dan

Thats kind of where I was going. My rig mechanic at work pointed me toward the Parker site for gauges, I just haven't made it over there to see how proud they are of them. He also mentioned glycerin gauges but my bout of Covid has prevented me from getting to town to go shopping until now.

 

[TheOldHokie]

No, what I'm saying is I can't afford to drop my tractor off to sit in a yard at one of a half dozen shops that are backed up on work when I have my own farm that needs constant maintenance as well as clients who I also do property maintenance for.

Without getting into my full resume, it's safe to say I have experience operating, maintaining, and repairing hydraulic equipment, a lot of it much bigger than a compact tractor. I just haven't ever changed a hydraulic pump on a Kobota tractor. That doesn't mean I haven't drank and worn my fair share of hydraulic oil.
Thanks for the diagram, that's exactly what I was

Thats kind of where I was going. My rig mechanic at work pointed me toward the Parker site for gauges, I just haven't made it over there to see how proud they are of them. He also mentioned glycerin gauges but my bout of Covid has prevented me from getting to town to go shopping until now.

A 2.5" 5000 PSI gauge should be about $15. - the fittings and hose will be as much as if not more than the gauge. That will give you mid scale readings with roughly 100 PSI resolution and plenty of head room.

I was serious - I have several new ones and the ability to make/provide whatever you need in the way of hose and fittings. I am no where near as proud as Parker. Grainger also sells Hedland test kits with a 15 GPM flow meter, 3500 PSI pressure gauge and adjustable loading valve all manifolded together for $120. Personally I haver had the need for that kind of flow measurements on a agricultural tractor but if you are a tool junky like me its a nice looking gadget at an affordable price.

Dan

 

[Slick75]

A 2.5" 5000 PSI gauge should be about $15. - the fittings and hose will be as much as if not more than the gauge. That will give you mid scale readings with roughly 100 PSI resolution and plenty of head room.

I was serious - I have several new ones and the ability to make/provide whatever you need in the way of hose and fittings. I am no where near as proud as Parker. Grainger also sells Hedland test kits with a 15 GPM flow meter, 3500 PSI pressure gauge and adjustable loading valve all manifolded together for $120. Personally I haver had the need for that kind of flow measurements on a agricultural tractor but if you are a tool junky like me its a nice looking gadget at an affordable price.

Dan

I might get with you on one. My rig mechanic has some nice digital gauges down to fractional bar he hooks to my cranes occasionally but I don't have a $20k/month maintenance tool budget. LOL

 

[randall47]

will the4 bolt cipr hydraulic motor fit a lane shark ls2 It carrries a 15-20 gpm' if not what will convert to it.My old one doesn't have a number on it