MIG welding question. (CO2 canister)

[joekimtkd]

One of youtube video guy said we could use Paint ball's CO2 canister for MIG welding. Is it true?
I'm studying MIG welding a lot right now. but this Paint balling CO2 canister makes me quite interested. 'cause, I have 3 of 20 oz tank with full of CO2 right now.

Is there any one using it right now?

Since I'm not a welder, I don't weld much at all. Maybe once a month, or once a year like... So, buying the CO2 gas tank or leasing doesn't make much sense for me. even renting the tank. also those tank has expiry date too, Don't they?

I'm just using Flux core welding right now but it gives me dirty looks~
So, If I could use this CO2 canister, I wouldn't mind to try it though.

I don't know much about this Paint balling CO2 canister but when I was leasing Paint balling CO2 tank, it was $100/year and I had to use siphon style CO2 tank. so those siphoning style tank could be a problem on MIG welding, I think..., Doesn't it?

I know this is very weird, stupid question but~ I had to ask~!

Joe.

 

[traildust]

One of youtube video guy said we could use Paint ball's CO2 canister for MIG welding. Is it true?
I'm studying MIG welding a lot right now. but this Paint balling CO2 canister makes me quite interested. 'cause, I have 3 of 20 oz tank with full of CO2 right now.

Is there any one using it right now?

Since I'm not a welder, I don't weld much at all. Maybe once a month, or once a year like... So, buying the CO2 gas tank or leasing doesn't make much sense for me. even renting the tank. also those tank has expiry date too, Don't they?

I'm just using Flux core welding right now but it gives me dirty looks~
So, If I could use this CO2 canister, I wouldn't mind to try it though.

I don't know much about this Paint balling CO2 canister but when I was leasing Paint balling CO2 tank, it was $100/year and I had to use siphon style CO2 tank. so those siphoning style tank could be a problem on MIG welding, I think..., Doesn't it?

I know this is very weird, stupid question but~ I had to ask~!

Joe.

Joe,

I Mig weld also but it sounds like we are at about the same level. I only flux and after four years still haven't used the gas.

Do paint ball people buy new tanks every time or do they get there tanks recharged? Would there gas have impurities in it?
If they get there tanks recharged, would we still have our own tank to have them fill.
I obviously know nothing about the paint ball stuff other than it hurts.

Scott

 

[Theekillerbee]

I've never looked at the adapter on the end of a CO2 cannister for paint ball guns, but you do need a regulator in the line somewhere, so if a standard regulator will fit on the tank, it would work fine. While MIG welding you need a steady flow of low pressure inert gas flowing over the liquid metal while it is cooling, otherwise, the contaminants in the air will do bad things to the liquid metal.

FCAW (Flux Core Arc Weld) for a wire feed gives an acceptable weld, but they are still ugly. I can get a much nicer weld from a stick welder than a FCAW wire feed.

I've never seen an expiration date on any gas cylinder, so I think they are good as long as there is gas in the tank. An inert gas wont react with anything, so it really can't go bad.

As a personal note, I like the looks of the weld when done with an argon mixture vs the plain CO2.

 

[joekimtkd]

Joe,

I Mig weld also but it sounds like we are at about the same level. I only flux and after four years still haven't used the gas.

Do paint ball people buy new tanks every time or do they get there tanks recharged? Would there gas have impurities in it?
If they get there tanks recharged, would we still have our own tank to have them fill.
I obviously know nothing about the paint ball stuff other than it hurts.

Scott

ha ha ha~ It hurts alright~!!!
Once I've been hit by one of my student, it was hurting soooooo bad. Especially got hit on my nuts and it was winter time~

I'm not sure about impurities but it should be pure CO2, I think.
Those CO2 canisters you buy your own and refill it at almost anywhere for around $5.00. and it is multi-purpose~!

I've been using Flux core welding only so far. but I start getting a bit of temptation on GAS MIG Welding too~~!!!
If my wife finds out that I bought another welding machine, she will welds my fingers together~ and buying another gas tank, she will find too quick.

Joe.

 

[joekimtkd]

I've never looked at the adapter on the end of a CO2 cannister for paint ball guns, but you do need a regulator in the line somewhere, so if a standard regulator will fit on the tank, it would work fine. While MIG welding you need a steady flow of low pressure inert gas flowing over the liquid metal while it is cooling, otherwise, the contaminants in the air will do bad things to the liquid metal.

FCAW (Flux Core Arc Weld) for a wire feed gives an acceptable weld, but they are still ugly. I can get a much nicer weld from a stick welder than a FCAW wire feed.

I've never seen an expiration date on any gas cylinder, so I think they are good as long as there is gas in the tank. An inert gas wont react with anything, so it really can't go bad.

As a personal note, I like the looks of the weld when done with an argon mixture vs the plain CO2.

Have you bought a Gas cylinder? or lease them? How much are they?
And 75% Argon and 25% CO2 mixture are you talking about?

I've noticed Argon and CO2 are two different metals to weld but What about the mixture you are talking about?
I thought I had to get Argon cylinder and CO2 cylinder for two different welding materials...
So I thought it would be too much~!

Joe.

 

[Theekillerbee]

I own a small CO2 cylinder, and lease a mixed bottle. We have access to a pretty good local online classified site, so I picked it up for 50 bucks. The lease cylinder I believe was about 100 bucks...this is a one time fee, then just pay to have an exchange. It's been about 3 years since I've picked up the cylinder, so the exact figure escapes my aging mind! I even recall there is a refund of about 1/2 of the lease price when the bottle is returned in good condition.

The 75/25 is a good mixture, and the welds come out lookin really nice, with minimal spatter. When I weld aluminum (rarely) I use 100% argon gas. CO2 is the most affordable, and will do just fine for any steel welds. If you use a mixture, it is all in one cylinder, so you do not have to buy 2.

 

[gmtinker]

I used to teach basic welding, and we used a few different welding methods. I agree that flux core arc welding (FCAW) is a bit messier and has more spatter than a clean gas metal arc weld (GMAW, aka metal inert gas or MIG) weld. However I would not recommend the use of straight CO2 as a shielding gas. If you look at any major supplier of welding gases you will find that almost all welding-purpose gas has at least one other gas added to the mix and proportion of CO2 if CO2 is used. The mix that I preferred was 75% Argon/25% CO2, but we were primarily welding mild steel up to 3/8" thick.

The other issue, as mentioned, is the plumbing/regulation of said gas to deliver it to the nozzle. By the time you get the stuff to do it properly, you're well on your way to making it simplest to just get the proper gas mix in a commercial bottle. There are various sizes available, depending on the amount of welding you do, and aren't really all that expensive. This is especially true when you consider the hassle and possible safety issues with trying to adapt non-standard cylinders.

As for the one comment about stick welding (SMAW or shielded metal arc welding) being cleaner than FCAW, I do agree to a point. If you use a rod like an E7014 with clean metal fitting together well, you can do beautiful work. I really like E7014 for its good penetration, ease of use, clean slag chipping, and nice puddle. In fact, I prefer SMAW over GMAW for anything 1/4" or thicker if I have the choice, and it is even quite effective on 1/8" thick material if you use a 3/32" rod instead of 1/8" rod.

All that being said, we built many good, solid projects and pieces using FCAW, it just took a bit longer to clean them up before prepping and painting.

 

[traildust]

ha ha ha~ It hurts alright~!!!
Once I've been hit by one of my student, it was hurting soooooo bad. Especially got hit on my nuts and it was winter time~

I'm not sure about impurities but it should be pure CO2, I think.
Those CO2 canisters you buy your own and refill it at almost anywhere for around $5.00. and it is multi-purpose~!

I've been using Flux core welding only so far. but I start getting a bit of temptation on GAS MIG Welding too~~!!!
If my wife finds out that I bought another welding machine, she will welds my fingers together~ and buying another gas tank, she will find too quick.

Joe.

Joe,
That sounds absolutely brutal, a shot to the jewels in the winter
I am also right there with you when it come to buying new tools, especially the pricey ones and playing dumb with the wife. "Oh that? Ya I've had that in the shop for quite a while, you just haven't seen it." Sometimes that works until she looks at the bankaccount

Maybe you should wear a cup to keep from getting hit in the jewels again..

Scott

 

[traildust]

Theekillerbee and gmtinker,
Thank you for helping us make a little since of the welds, I'm picking up a lot from you two.

For using the gas, would that be mostly for doing thinner metals or is it good for thicker also. I have the Lincoln 175 220v and have only used the flux and it is a pain always having to clean up the splatter. Seems there is more time doing that than the actual welds. I also didn't know that using the gas whould help stop that, or reduce it.
I love this little machine, but then I have nothing to compare to because I haven't used anything else.

gmtinker, you must be cringing at my lack of proper terminology since you were an instructor. To bad I don't live next door to somebody like you

Scott

 

[Rust Addict]

Try a gas bottle just once on your MIG, and you may never run that flux core spool again. Well at least until the bottle goes out and you just gotta finish that welding job at 2am. Running shield gas its the only way to weld the thin stuff.

 

[gmtinker]

Theekillerbee and gmtinker,
Thank you for helping us make a little since of the welds, I'm picking up a lot from you two.

For using the gas, would that be mostly for doing thinner metals or is it good for thicker also. I have the Lincoln 175 220v and have only used the flux and it is a pain always having to clean up the splatter. I love this little machine, but then I have nothing to compare to because I haven't used anything else.
Seems there is more time doing that than the actual welds. I also didn't know that using the gas whould help stop that, or reduce it.

gmtinker, you must be cringing at my lack of proper terminology since you were an instructor. To bad I don't live next door to somebody like you

Scott

I don't cringe. We are all at different stages of learning in various areas of our lives, and this is what coming together and learning from each other is all about. It's what "community" is all about. Hey, on another thread I learned that the proper term for something I described was "clevis hitch!"

For welding thinner sizes of steel, at least with the "average joe" type equipment, GMAW/MIG is the cat's pajamas. The thinnest I've seen welded properly with a stick is 1/8". As for using gas with FCAW, solid wire is cheaper by the 10-lb spool than flux wire, and if you're using the gas anyway, you might as well weld GMAW. I looked up Lincoln 175's and if I can assume that you have the Pro-MIG 175, it looks like all you have to do is add a bottle and reverse the polarity between the gun and clamp and you're in business. It actually looks like quite a good little home machine according to the book.

 

[Randyj]

Argon / mix is the ONLY way to mig weld, in my opinion. I do a lot of mig welding. I also stick weld, and gas weld ( oxy / acc ) or as some say "hammer weld", on occasion. I'd like to have a nice tig welder in my shop, but it would
not be cost efective for me. Tig welds are the cream of the crop.

Never tried the flux core with mig welding. I went staight to the bottle, right from the start. Flux core is dirty.

 

[traildust]

Try a gas bottle just once on your MIG, and you may never run that flux core spool again. Well at least until the bottle goes out and you just gotta finish that welding job at 2am. Running shield gas its the only way to weld the thin stuff.

Hey thanks Rust and it sounds like you have been down that road with an empty bottle. Here is a stupid question, but when you are in the welding mode is it obvious when the gas runs out?

Scott

I don't cringe. We are all at different stages of learning in various areas of our lives, and this is what coming together and learning from each other is all about. It's what "community" is all about. Hey, on another thread I learned that the proper term for something I described was "clevis hitch!"

For welding thinner sizes of steel, at least with the "average joe" type equipment, GMAW/MIG is the cat's pajamas. The thinnest I've seen welded properly with a stick is 1/8". As for using gas with FCAW, solid wire is cheaper by the 10-lb spool than flux wire, and if you're using the gas anyway, you might as well weld GMAW. I looked up Lincoln 175's and if I can assume that you have the Pro-MIG 175, it looks like all you have to do is add a bottle and reverse the polarity between the gun and clamp and you're in business. It actually looks like quite a good little home machine according to the book.

gmtinker,
you are absolutely correct about different stages of learning and this great community jumping in to help. I remember quite well the schooling I got on how the 3 point actually operates. I needed it though because I was dead wrong.

For the welder, you are also correct that it is the Pro-Mig 175. It came with the regulator and a hose for connection. Also they included a hand held shield instead of a helmet. The shield is worthless and impossible for a beginner to use. It's already at the darkest level so you can't see anything until it's too late. I also found it extremely difficult to hold the shield in one hand and keep my other hand nice and steady with the welder. An auto darkening helmet was the first thing I purchased.

The helmet is another issue. The one I have is only solar and does not have a battery for backup. I just have to remember to place the helmet in the sun or under a light while I get stuff ready. Do most people use the kind with battery backup? Every time I'm about to buy one I walk away with the $100.00 still in my pocket

This next question might be a little too deep, but why is it necessary to move the wires to switch polarity for using the gas?

Thank you Rust and gmtinker for your help
Scott

P.S. - Joe, it just occured to me I'm hijacking your thread. I'm sorry.

 

[joekimtkd]

This next question might be a little too deep, but why is it necessary to move the wires to switch polarity for using the gas?

Thank you Rust and gmtinker for your help
Scott

P.S. - Joe, it just occured to me I'm hijacking your thread. I'm sorry.

Hey, hijacked or not~ we are on same boat, same community. Don't forget. I'm the Master instructor in Tae Kwon Do. I could kick those chip munk's nuts very easily~ ha ha ha... We will share everything here.

I was going to buy 10 pound spool of Flux wire. but now I should buy the mixed gas tank first.

If I use gas MIG welding, Is there a limit for the thickness of the metal to weld? Can it be weld 1/4 inch metal with gas?
I have MIG-Pak 140. 110 volts.

For Helmet? I have very cheap version of auto darkening helmet and it never needed to charge by the sun or anything. No battery either...

Thank you guys.

Joe.

 

[traildust]

Hey, hijacked or not~ we are on same boat, same community. Don't forget. I'm the Master instructor in Tae Kwon Do. I could kick those chip munk's nuts very easily~ ha ha ha... We will share everything here.

I was going to buy 10 pound spool of Flux wire. but now I should buy the mixed gas tank first.

If I use gas MIG welding, Is there a limit for the thickness of the metal to weld? Can it be weld 1/4 inch metal with gas?
I have MIG-Pak 140. 110 volts.

For Helmet? I have very cheap version of auto darkening helmet and it never needed to charge by the sun or anything. No battery either...

Thank you guys.

Joe.

Joe, your a good man! And I'm not just saying that becaue you're a Tae Kwon Do instructor

Qiute possibly that little chipmunk might need a swift kick in the nads. He looks a little "cocky".

You are lucky with your helmet. Mine is a bottom of the line also and it sucks. I got what I payed for. Sometimes it will hang up on the darkest setting and I will have to hold it up to a bright light to snap it back. It is extremely annoying at the very least. Each time it does it I swear I'm gonna buy a better one but a better one is about $100.00 and that's one of those things I'd have to get by my wife Remember we already covered the wife thing earlier in the thread

I just purchased a new spool of flux a couple of weeks ago after I did a bunch of welding for my neighbor. From what these guys are saying I'm gonna look into using the gas on the next weld. Now's the debate of buy or lease a tank. I'm not going there with this post as it can go on an on, Ill just judge the cost myself.

If I use gas MIG welding, Is there a limit for the thickness of the metal to weld? Can it be weld 1/4 inch metal with gas?

I like that question since I'm drawing up some plans to make a trailer for my tractor and there is 1/4 inch in it.

When the welding guys come back I'll be printing this thread for referance.

Scott

 

[JWB]

Hi guys,
let me see if I can help answer your questions. Yes you can use your paintball co2 cartridge. Miller makes a suitcase welder called the passport that uses paintball cylinders. It is designed for repair work inside plants, WWW.millerwelds.com.

Fluxcore welding will give you the most heat(because of the polarity being different the electrons flow differently) but, this is a messy weld. Straight co2 will splatter a lot also but not like flux welding. Straight argon will have a "wandering" arc but more penetration than straight co2 and very little splatter. The best all around for most applications is with a mix of 75% argon and 25% co2. Mixes vary but that is the most common. You can shield the arc with most Noble gasses but cost and density make ( helium wants to float away) them more difficult to use.

The reason for the polarity change when you switch to gas has to with electron flow and where the heat needs to originate from as the filler metal ( wire ) melts and is transferred to the weldment. If you want to know more check out WWW.lincolnelectric.com and look under knowledge. They have great videos and animations. Hopes this helps if you need to know more ill try to help.

 

[Theekillerbee]

The thickness of the steel is limited by your available welding amperage. I think the 175 is about maxed at 1/4 inch. You can tell if you are getting good penetration if you weld on the top of some scrap steel, then look at the bottom to see if there is good discoloration of the steel. I like to see the color change about 2-3 times the size of my initial weld. This is purely a rule of thumb, as I'm not a certified welder, more of just a tinkerer.

Welding is a tricky art, and it takes a lot of time/practice to get reasonable good at it. It may sound/look simple, but I've blown a lot of holes in metals through the years, and I'm sure I'll continue to do it more. It is frustrating, so practice on a bunch of scrap pieces first before you tackle the final project.

One other note, it is very obvious when you run out of shield gas! The weld looks like pure garbage! Full of bubbles, and it doesn't flow very well. Just for fun, test it out on a scrap piece. Just turn off the tank and see the difference. FWIW those tanks will last you a very long time, so don't worry about having to buy a bunch of expensive shield gas.

 

[JWB]

Hi all,
Sorry for the confusion, I said earlier that straight argon gave more penetration.....What I MENT to say was less....I responded before the coffee had started to work. Straight CO2 will give more penetration for a given Voltage setting than argon. It will splatter more than blended gasses though.

I agree with theekillerbee though a 175 is probably limited to 1/4" mild carbon steel. Unless you preheat or do multiple passes. A weld pack 140 110 volt would need to make multiple passes and/or preheat before trying to weld a QUALITY 1/4" weld. In a pinch or for short welds it could be done though.

On the issue of the electric shield....Be careful of buying them if you want to TIG weld in the future. The electric eye won't trigger when TIG welding in DC at lower current ranges. Or it will flicker when trying to TIG in AC ( aluminum welding ) it's like trying to weld while looking into a strobe light. Also be sure that the lense will protect you from UV light if the lense doesn't trigger (get dark). Trust me you don't want welder's flash.
JWB

 

[traildust]

JWB and Theekillerbee,
Thank you to the two of you for information that can only come from those "that have been there". I am getting some really great information that is literally priceless. I will be printing this thread, there is no doubt about that.

I had also been wondering about the bottles running out of gas and glad to see it will be very obvious. My concern about how fast the bottles will be depleted is also answered!

The tip for looking at the opposite side of the metal for change in color and how far it goes out is great.

There is just so much wonderful information I can't list it all and that's why I'm printing!

Ok, with every answer brings up another question. Sorry.

But with the switch of polarity and going gas I'm getting the feeling that it makes cooler welds. If I am correct, that will help a lot as the fear of warping the metal should be less. Am I right with this?
If that is the case I will never go flux again. Until like Rust mentioned when you run out of gas at 2am!

What is welders flash? I have an idea, but is it permanent? I can never understand why they show people welding on the reality tv welding and not using protective gear, such as a helmet, or anything for that matter. Granted people that would imulate that are going to do dumb stuff anyway, but I just don't see the point of it.

Thank you guys for taking the time to help a rookie and I know that when Joe logs back on he will be happy too.

Scott

 

[joekimtkd]

Thank you all for great answers.
and thanks to Scott for asking more questions that I forgot about too.

I've checked RONA for mixed gas cylinder.
They want $213 for cylinder to purchase, $49 for refill. What do you think about the price? and that is LD size cylinder (whatever that is...), 70 cubic feet. and Do you think that cylinder will last at least 10 pounds wire spool to weld?

My MIg-Pak 140 will weld upto 5/16 inches. that is 1/16 inch more than 1/4 inches. and that is 110 volts.

Attached pictures are my welding cart that made out of dolly.
I installed two small swivel wheels at the front too. and used mail box for sundries. and Rubbermaid was perfect for dust cover...

I've welding yesterday for my snow blade for more support. and that was 3/16 angle iron. and I tried straight bead to weld, zig zag to weld and it still not good looking. (remind you that I'm totally new to welding...)
but when I start try to circling, it looked better. Is it okay to welding like that? (circling means, when you drawing spring... that kind circling moves)
I never seen anyone doing that way. but my case it worked better.

Thank you again and looking forward to get some more answers here.

Joe.