Denied for having more than one wife, no,,,, seeking mental help for having more than one wife YES
Making choices...
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At the same time…??
Why can’t they be happy with what the rest of the world does…. mistresses and fornication…
That's exactly correct!
There are too many folks looking to make a point about their beliefs. If someone is wanting a "cake" for their wedding and the baker doesn't want to deal with the customer (for whatever reason) why would the customer want to deal with the baker?
Just go somewhere else that will do what you want!
It's like raising a fuss over a resturant meal that doesn't suit the customer. Customer calls the waiter over and complains, needs something changed. When the plate gets sent back to the kitchen who knows what changes (other than the requested one) is made? Like Hagrid said, maybe they added salt. Or maybe they just spit on the plate!!!
A local hamburger joint next town over went out of business when it was found out the cook used his armpit to shape the patty for the deputy-sherriff.
It seems the cook had an attitude for law enforcement due to a recent encounter…so he decided to satisfy himself with the silly act.
Forrest Gump: “My Momma always said ‘Stupid is as stupid does’..”
Seems the co-worker thought it funny and told a friend…who told a friend…. the story eventually getting around to the Sheriffs’ Dept…. who knew the owner …who had a security camera in the cash-register area …and the kitchen. While the penalty towards the employee wasn’t what shut down the restaurant…. the subsequent news-story made the locals question whether THEY wanted to eat there. The business shut down and property sold-off.
When I flew for the state of Tx there was a “coffee-kitty” which was supposed to buy the coffee for state aviation employees. (Unlike a private or commercial operation state funds cannot be used for “perks”…so we all “chipped-in”.)
It was sometimes “lightened” to the point it became obvious.
The idiot employee failed to think about the fact that our airport operations Security person ..who participated in the coffee-pot-fund….was a Dept of Public Safety Officer (Hwy Patrolman assigned to airport ops)…. with access to sophisticated resources…
A “pin-hole” camera was installed in the overhead acoustic-tile ceiling…. and the employee lost a valuable and hard-to-get desirable state job working with influential people.
It seems the cook had an attitude for law enforcement due to a recent encounter…so he decided to satisfy himself with the silly act.
Forrest Gump: “My Momma always said ‘Stupid is as stupid does’..”
Seems the co-worker thought it funny and told a friend…who told a friend…. the story eventually getting around to the Sheriffs’ Dept…. who knew the owner …who had a security camera in the cash-register area …and the kitchen. While the penalty towards the employee wasn’t what shut down the restaurant…. the subsequent news-story made the locals question whether THEY wanted to eat there. The business shut down and property sold-off.
When I flew for the state of Tx there was a “coffee-kitty” which was supposed to buy the coffee for state aviation employees. (Unlike a private or commercial operation state funds cannot be used for “perks”…so we all “chipped-in”.)
It was sometimes “lightened” to the point it became obvious.
The idiot employee failed to think about the fact that our airport operations Security person ..who participated in the coffee-pot-fund….was a Dept of Public Safety Officer (Hwy Patrolman assigned to airport ops)…. with access to sophisticated resources…
A “pin-hole” camera was installed in the overhead acoustic-tile ceiling…. and the employee lost a valuable and hard-to-get desirable state job working with influential people.
You may be missing a tremendous advantage of that. Then we know who doesn't get our business. If that were legal here, and I saw a sign like that, it would be the last time I spent a dime in there, and the second to the last time I entered. I would walk in one more time to tell them why they lost my business.
But your question about where we draw the line is legitimate. This country exists, in large measure, due to a desire for religious freedom, and it is one of the most fundamental rights we have. It is important enough to be specifically mentioned in our Constitution.
Jefferson said,
"To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical. "
How much more to force a man to participate in something he believes is immoral?
Black or white or yellow or green is not a matter of religion, and so cannot be classified as a matter of freedom of religion. Other than the Mormons, I am not aware of any historic religion which has condemned people based on their color, and they (officially) renounced that position quite a while ago.
NCL4701
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It may not be obvious from my prior posts, but personally I am more sympathetic to the baker’s side of the argument. Religious freedom is a strongly compelling argument. Religious freedom was one of the primary motives for the first European colonists moving to America and it remains a basic tenet of our society today.
I do not believe a private business should be legally compelled to participate in an activity clearly prohibited by their religion, whether that religion is mine or some other religion. I also believe there are a plethora of means for businesses to avoid customers and still stay out of trouble.
I have lived in a time and place where open racism was the norm. Businesses that didn’t serve blacks or provided a lower level of service in a separate area did just fine. Maybe they wouldn’t now.
The racial discrimination issue may or may not be on point, but whether it is or not is actually part of the question, as the civil rights movement is the root of the arguments of the homosexual couple.
My only real points in all this are: 1. The bakery could have done as many other businesses do and avoided the job without getting in legal trouble. 2. This isn’t really as simple as it may appear at first impression.
I think the bakery should sell the cake without question to ANY buyer who pays for the product. It's a standard product, you pay, you get.
The customization service should be optional provided the vendor doesn't advertise "free cake decorations" without any qualifications.
Example: if a vendor posts "all sales final no refunds no exchanges" clearly at the till then the buyer has no recourse under my jurisdiction. If the vendor fails to post this notice then refunds or exchanges falls under the retail sales laws and the vendor is up the creek.
If the vendor posts "cake customization may or may not be available and is at the discretion of the vendor depending on availability of materials and labour" then the purchaser doesn't have recourse. The vendor can rightfully decline the customization service.
hmmm. . .
Christian conservative group denied service at Virginia restaurant as staff felt 'unsafe'
By
Asher Notheis, Breaking News Reporter
December 06, 2022 02:42 PM
A Christian and conservative nonprofit organization based in Richmond, Virginia , was rejected service at a restaurant due to its political beliefs.
The Family Foundation had scheduled an event at the Metzger Bar and Butchery on Wednesday but had its reservation canceled by the restaurant less than two hours before the scheduled time. The organization found out that its reservation had been canceled after a restaurant employee looked up the organization, and the restaurant's waitstaff refused to serve it, according to the Family Foundation.
"Are they planning to ask all customers what they believe and where they send their donations before allowing them to enter?" Family Foundation of Virginia President Victoria Cobb told the Washington Examiner . "Americans expect that we can hold differing views and even champion different causes while still dining at the same establishment."
The reservation was for an event with supporters to inform them further about the Family Foundation, Cobb said. A total of 15-20 people, consisting of the guests and some staff members, were meant to be in attendance.
Without mentioning the Family Foundation by name, the restaurant claims it canceled a scheduled event after the restaurant owners found out "it was a group of donors to a political organization that seeks to deprive women and LGBTQ+ persons of their basic human rights in Virginia."
"We have always refused service to anyone for making our staff uncomfortable or unsafe and this was the driving force behind our decision," read a statement the restaurant posted on social media. "Many of our staff are women and/or members of the LGBTQ+ community. All of our staff are people with rights who deserve dignity and a safe work environment."
Christian conservative group denied service at Virginia restaurant as staff felt 'unsafe'
By
Asher Notheis, Breaking News Reporter
December 06, 2022 02:42 PM
A Christian and conservative nonprofit organization based in Richmond, Virginia , was rejected service at a restaurant due to its political beliefs.
The Family Foundation had scheduled an event at the Metzger Bar and Butchery on Wednesday but had its reservation canceled by the restaurant less than two hours before the scheduled time. The organization found out that its reservation had been canceled after a restaurant employee looked up the organization, and the restaurant's waitstaff refused to serve it, according to the Family Foundation.
"Are they planning to ask all customers what they believe and where they send their donations before allowing them to enter?" Family Foundation of Virginia President Victoria Cobb told the Washington Examiner . "Americans expect that we can hold differing views and even champion different causes while still dining at the same establishment."
The reservation was for an event with supporters to inform them further about the Family Foundation, Cobb said. A total of 15-20 people, consisting of the guests and some staff members, were meant to be in attendance.
Without mentioning the Family Foundation by name, the restaurant claims it canceled a scheduled event after the restaurant owners found out "it was a group of donors to a political organization that seeks to deprive women and LGBTQ+ persons of their basic human rights in Virginia."
"We have always refused service to anyone for making our staff uncomfortable or unsafe and this was the driving force behind our decision," read a statement the restaurant posted on social media. "Many of our staff are women and/or members of the LGBTQ+ community. All of our staff are people with rights who deserve dignity and a safe work environment."
fried1765
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bmblank
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Not necessarily directed at you, NCL, but to the thread in general, along this vein. People seem to have different feelings about "sincerely held religious beliefs" and other beliefs that may or may not be religious in nature. Bottom line is you can't police what's going on in somebody's head. If one baker is allowed to turn somebody down saying he doesn't want to take part in celebrating something against his sincerely held religious beliefs, why can another be punished for turning somebody down? Are his beliefs sincerely religious? I don't know, you don't know... Nobody can say.
Some people would say since that's the case, the original baker should be punished also, regardless of beliefs. I find that to lead down the road of fascism/socialism - compelling people to use their talents in ways they don't want to. Imagine telling a journalist that what they believe is wrong and this is how you need to tell the story. It would be a horrible future.
The logical conclusion is that the gov't should keep their mitts off of things like that. The gov't has no say in what my beliefs are, religious or otherwise, and therefore cannot dictate whom I choose to associate with.
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I've had people I've refused to do work for. Got over there to look at the job and they immediately started treating me like a second hand citizen. Figured that I would never be able to do the job to there satisfaction. So I declined the job and said I wasn't interested in it. The hissy fit they through at that point confirmed my suspicions.
Daren Todd
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I'm compelled by my employer to refuse to do something I deem to be unsafe. I've refused to let someone leave my yard without properly securing a load.
I've also refused to change a hitch on piece of equipment to a smaller hitch because the customer was to cheap to purchase the correct ball.
The customer was requesting I switch the hitch to a 2" ball (7,000lb rated) because that was the ball they had. The equipment weighed 9,000lbs. He got mad because his truck was more than enough to pull his load (F250). I replied "yes sir, but you want to use a hitch that's only rated for 6,000lbs to pull something that weighs 9,000lbs!!!".
NCL4701
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And that is part of the quandary. I may have a personal opinion that, even if valid, may not translate to equitable enforceable law.
Let's flip the tables for a minute and see what result we get.
Let's say a trump hater owns a bakery. And a trump supporteer wants a trump cake to celebrate the 2016 election. Do you think that cake would be made?
What next, people are going to sue Chik-fil-a and Hobby Lobby for not serving them on Sundays. That's exactly the same thing...forcing people to disregard their religious beliefs to accommodate someone. Maybe congress can pass the "My beliefs are more important than your beliefs act". That way instead of going to church on Sunday you can go to work and make more chicken sandwiches.
Let's say a trump hater owns a bakery. And a trump supporteer wants a trump cake to celebrate the 2016 election. Do you think that cake would be made?
That's the problem with this lawsuit. The SCOTUS should not even have taken this case. This is a 1st amendment right and the government has no business forcing people to do things that violate their religious beliefs, so long as it does not endanger others.
What next, people are going to sue Chik-fil-a and Hobby Lobby for not serving them on Sundays. That's exactly the same thing...forcing people to disregard their religious beliefs to accommodate someone. Maybe congress can pass the "My beliefs are more important than your beliefs act". That way instead of going to church on Sunday you can go to work and make more chicken sandwiches.
The law sometimes over-corrects in an effort to eliminate disparities and illegalities.
The rights of one person end where it imposes on the rights of another.
If a bus company refuses to carry black people or demands they sit in the back of the bus… even if the general population agrees with that policy… the taxes and fares paid by black people should have equal status as that of whites…. So the law steps-in and regulates the matter.
If a small business receives a Small Business Loan…or a Minority-Owned grant or compensatory treatment… or a local tax-deferment as a small business employer… or other…. then it has accepted the responsibility to serve ALL people (I.E. payers of local and sales taxes) …Equally. The business cannot discriminate for the owner who thinks HIS religious-beliefs cancel-out the LGBTQ persons’ right to believe what they consider valid.
We don’t have to like what each other believes. But we have the legal obligation to be fair to others and to respect their legal choices.
I am pretty tired of the television advertisement that shows two gay guys pick each other up at the subway station and have a passionate kiss on my TV screen to sell some anti-viral drug.
I don’t feel I should have someone else‘s off-center beliefs…whether legal or not… shoved into my face… which is why I don’t appreciate gay-pride events/parades held in public streets that are shut-down and policed by law enforcement at my taxpayer-expense…. because I don’t recall seeing any gov’t approval of the heterosexual- parades I’d be fond of …. but which the local Baptists would revolt over. …
so while I don’t attend gay parades… I also don’t approve of people who drive cars thru them injuring and killing anyone participating. At some point you have to decide which of the behaviors deserve restrictions and gov’t intrusion. If the gay parade pays the permit fees…. I guess they should have the same rights as veterans or motorcycle clubs do.… and if I want to be true to the American Ideal… I have to respect that.
As a small businessman I don’t have the “right” to refuse service simply on the basis of what someone else might believe. I’ll take your money and donate it to a cause that fights your group legally.
The rights of one person end where it imposes on the rights of another.
If a bus company refuses to carry black people or demands they sit in the back of the bus… even if the general population agrees with that policy… the taxes and fares paid by black people should have equal status as that of whites…. So the law steps-in and regulates the matter.
If a small business receives a Small Business Loan…or a Minority-Owned grant or compensatory treatment… or a local tax-deferment as a small business employer… or other…. then it has accepted the responsibility to serve ALL people (I.E. payers of local and sales taxes) …Equally. The business cannot discriminate for the owner who thinks HIS religious-beliefs cancel-out the LGBTQ persons’ right to believe what they consider valid.
We don’t have to like what each other believes. But we have the legal obligation to be fair to others and to respect their legal choices.
I am pretty tired of the television advertisement that shows two gay guys pick each other up at the subway station and have a passionate kiss on my TV screen to sell some anti-viral drug.
I don’t feel I should have someone else‘s off-center beliefs…whether legal or not… shoved into my face… which is why I don’t appreciate gay-pride events/parades held in public streets that are shut-down and policed by law enforcement at my taxpayer-expense…. because I don’t recall seeing any gov’t approval of the heterosexual- parades I’d be fond of …. but which the local Baptists would revolt over. …
so while I don’t attend gay parades… I also don’t approve of people who drive cars thru them injuring and killing anyone participating. At some point you have to decide which of the behaviors deserve restrictions and gov’t intrusion. If the gay parade pays the permit fees…. I guess they should have the same rights as veterans or motorcycle clubs do.… and if I want to be true to the American Ideal… I have to respect that.
As a small businessman I don’t have the “right” to refuse service simply on the basis of what someone else might believe. I’ll take your money and donate it to a cause that fights your group legally.
I don't think you fully understand what is going on here. This is not about "beliefs", this is about constitutional rights. You have a constitutional right to freedom of religion, and free speech. I refer you to the 1st amendment. Please refer me to the constitutional right that forces someone to bake a cake they do not want to bake.
So, instead of baking a cake let's suppose this gay couple was demanding to be married in a church that didn't think people of the same sex should be married. Should the church also be forced to accommodate this gay couple
Your example mixes apples and oranges.
YOUR beliefs cannot be allowed to prevent ME from having equal access to the marketplace. If you are baking cakes for the public…you cannot decide who gets a cake and who doesn’t simply because they have different beliefs than you.
As for the wedding scenario…. you use a church for the example. A church has members and has requirements for membership in it’s congregation. That church can have religious policies that determine weddings, funerals, and other ceremonies that must meet certain religious requirements.
If you used a commercial “wedding chapel” as the place for the ceremony instead of a church…then it would be a more equivalent comparison. A commercial wedding chapel offering services to the public can not discriminate based upon the wedded-couples beliefs.
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