Making a buck or two

NCL4701

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L4701, T2290, WC68, grapple, BB1572, Farmi W50R, Howes 500, 16kW IMD gen, WG24
Apr 27, 2020
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I have been asked several times by 'summer' residents to move gravel or stone for them. They drive up my drive while I am on the tractor. Each time I gave them the business card of a friend who does lawn maintenance and fire wood for a living.
Even he has been sued by property owners that insisted on work to be done after being told of the possible damages that could be incurred by his equipment on soft ground.
Good point. While a clear discussion of possible collateral damage should be had, it should be followed by the customer signing a waiver of liability for collateral damage.
 
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Biker1mike

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Jan 11, 2022
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Good point. While a clear discussion of possible collateral damage should be had, it should be followed by the customer signing a waiver of liability for collateral damage.
The problem is that a lawsuit can be filed with or without that waiver. It takes time and money to fight the suit.
 

fried1765

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Kubota L48 TLB, Ford 1920 FEL, Ford 8N, SCAG Liberty Z, Gravely Pro.
Nov 14, 2019
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Eastham, Ma
I have been asked several times by 'summer' residents to move gravel or stone for them. They drive up my drive while I am on the tractor. Each time I gave them the business card of a friend who does lawn maintenance and fire wood for a living.
Even he has been sued by property owners that insisted on work to be done after being told of the possible damages that could be incurred by his equipment on soft ground.
Yup!
My point exactly!
The appropriate descriptive phrase is: "No good deed goes unpunished"!
 
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ctfjr

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Good point. While a clear discussion of possible collateral damage should be had, it should be followed by the customer signing a waiver of liability for collateral damage.
worthless - a negligence claim negates that pretty easily
 

ctfjr

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You really want to protect yourself against a lawsuit. Make yourself 'judgement proof'. Have no assets, zero.
Some of our customers are experts at that but we then require a personal guarantee from the wife.
 

NHSleddog

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B2650
Dec 19, 2019
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You are apparently a lot more trusting of insurance companies than I am.
If you should ever have a large claim against you....look out!
Your insurance company very likely will be looking for a loophole, and they will often find one.
No, just a guy out there getting things done.

If you are prone to those types of problems and suits, you should not do that type of work.

If you are afraid of any kind of litigation in life, don't leave the house (that you DON'T own).

I worry just enough to purchase the insurances I need; and then no further.

Again, I have over a 25 year successful track record so don't go by me. My current tractor still doesn't have dent or ding on it with over 1000 hours on the meter and my latest truck (60,000mi+) doesn't have a scratch on it and it tows over 80% of the time. Some are simply more prone than others.

But still, regardless of all that I will never discourage a guy from going out and working.
 
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NCL4701

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L4701, T2290, WC68, grapple, BB1572, Farmi W50R, Howes 500, 16kW IMD gen, WG24
Apr 27, 2020
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Central Piedmont, NC
worthless - a negligence claim negates that pretty easily
I don’t have expertise outside of the state I live in. Here, liability waivers are routinely used by contractors and upheld by our courts.
 

NCL4701

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L4701, T2290, WC68, grapple, BB1572, Farmi W50R, Howes 500, 16kW IMD gen, WG24
Apr 27, 2020
2,840
4,341
113
Central Piedmont, NC
The problem is that a lawsuit can be filed with or without that waiver. It takes time and money to fight the suit.
That’s one of the two reasons for liability insurance. The one most people consider is it pays for stuff and people you negligently damage. The other is it pays for defense of liability lawsuits where you’re not liable. Either can be quite expensive so both functions are quite important.
 

fried1765

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Kubota L48 TLB, Ford 1920 FEL, Ford 8N, SCAG Liberty Z, Gravely Pro.
Nov 14, 2019
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Eastham, Ma
No, just a guy out there getting things done.

If you are prone to those types of problems and suits, you should not do that type of work.

If you are afraid of any kind of litigation in life, don't leave the house (that you DON'T own).

I worry just enough to purchase the insurances I need; and then no further.

Again, I have over a 25 year successful track record so don't go by me. My current tractor still doesn't have dent or ding on it with over 1000 hours on the meter and my latest truck (60,000mi+) doesn't have a scratch on it and it tows over 80% of the time. Some are simply more prone than others.

But still, regardless of all that I will never discourage a guy from going out and working.
I am 81 years old, and have had three cars totaled.
NONE of the accidents were my fault!
My car was hit each time.

My house was destroyed by fire in 1987 (no one was at home).
Went through Cancer treatment 26 years ago,
Divorced after 34 year marriage,.... 25 years ago.

May your good luck continue!
Apparently,.... I am,...."simply more accident prone than others".
 
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NHSleddog

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I am 81 years old, and have had three cars totaled.
NONE of the accidents were my fault!
My car was hit each time.

My house was destroyed by fire in 1987 (no one was at home).
Went through Cancer treatment 26 years ago,
Divorced after 34 year marriage,.... 25 years ago.

May your good luck continue!
Apparently,.... I am,...."simply more prone than others".
Amen, your lips to Gods ears. I hope I still have a lot of years of work left in me.
 

jyoutz

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MX6000 HST open station, FEL, 6’ cutter, forks, 8’ rear blade, 7’ cultivator
Jan 14, 2019
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Edgewood, New Mexico
Hello everyone,

I am just curious to see what others are charging to do odd jobs to make some extra cash with their tractors. Jobs such as garden tilling, driveway grading and repairs, and stump grinding. Iv found lots of info on what people charge for stump grinding services but I would still like to hear what you guys do. Also what do you charge for transport fees or minimum charges and why. Any info at all lay it on me or point me in the right direction if this has been gone over before in the forums.

Thanks in advance!

Cheers
My neighbor and I take turns plowing each other’s roads when it snows. No charge just a few beers between friends.
 

Elliott in GA

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LX 2610SU w/535,LP RCR1860,FDR1660,SGC0554,FSP500, DD BBX60005
Mar 10, 2021
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North Georgia
I don’t have expertise outside of the state I live in. Here, liability waivers are routinely used by contractors and upheld by our courts.
FWIW, liability waivers might offer some protection against ordinary negligence in some/many places. However, gross negligence, recklessness and intentional acts trump any waiver in just about any US jurisdiction.

The issue then becomes the level of negligence or whether something was reckless, and intentional is self explanatory.
 

NCL4701

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L4701, T2290, WC68, grapple, BB1572, Farmi W50R, Howes 500, 16kW IMD gen, WG24
Apr 27, 2020
2,840
4,341
113
Central Piedmont, NC
FWIW, liability waivers might offer some protection against ordinary negligence in some/many places. However, gross negligence, recklessness and intentional acts trump any waiver in just about any US jurisdiction.

The issue then becomes the level of negligence or whether something was reckless, and intentional is self explanatory.
Certainly. In the case of collateral damage reasonably anticipated as an unavoidable part of the job, such as ruts in a yard from running equipment on it (which was the issue my response was directed to) or relying on the property owner’s representation that there isn’t a septic tank 2” under the grass in the work area, liability waivers are an appropriate tool.

A liability waiver obviously doesn’t give the right for a driveway grading contractor to intentionally ram through nearby building walls and willy nilly wreak destruction with total immunity. A waiver also doesn’t protect the contractor from a breach of contract action for failing to complete the job properly. Liability waivers, at least the type commonly used by contractors, normally address a potential issue both parties are aware of beforehand such as yard damage from felling a large tree.

A typical waiver here would specify that the property owner understands the job requires running heavy equipment on a paved driveway, yard, etc., the property owner understands the risks involved in doing so, and waives any liability for damage to the driveway, yard, or whatever else is specified.

If I somehow implied any and all liability for anything period could be waived by a land owner/customer signing a blanket waiver of some sort, my apologies. That was not my intent at all.

Several on this thread have pointed out a variety of real risks to a business such as that contemplated by the OP. Some also have suggested those risks are of such magnitude that using a tractor for any business use is too risky to be reasonable and strategies to mitigate those risks are either cost prohibitive or non-existent.

My point was, and remains, there are insurance products and legal tools available to mitigate the risks to the contractor. While the general principles of appropriate risk mitigation (appropriate being defined by the risk tolerance of the contractor) are similar across the US and Canada, the details of exactly what is available, how much it costs, what specific forms to use for contracts, waivers, etc. are all specific to the area where the work is being performed so someone contemplating a business of this sort REALLY needs to consult with experts (insurance agent, attorney, accountant) in their locale. Without consulting those local experts, how much risk mitigation is needed, how much is available, and how much it costs are all unknowns.

Ignoring real risks is not advisable, but abandoning the idea of starting a small business based on an assumption that it’s far too risky and there’s no way around that other than prohibitively priced insurance and/or no viable defenses to frivolous lawsuits prior to researching the actual costs and available legal tools is, IMO, also not advisable.
 
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Elliott in GA

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LX 2610SU w/535,LP RCR1860,FDR1660,SGC0554,FSP500, DD BBX60005
Mar 10, 2021
750
734
93
North Georgia
Certainly. In the case of collateral damage reasonably anticipated as an unavoidable part of the job, such as ruts in a yard from running equipment on it (which was the issue my response was directed to) or relying on the property owner’s representation that there isn’t a septic tank 2” under the grass in the work area, liability waivers are an appropriate tool.

A liability waiver obviously doesn’t give the right for a driveway grading contractor to intentionally ram through nearby building walls and willy nilly wreak destruction with total immunity. A waiver also doesn’t protect the contractor from a breach of contract action for failing to complete the job properly. Liability waivers, at least the type commonly used by contractors, normally address a potential issue both parties are aware of beforehand such as yard damage from felling a large tree.

A typical waiver here would specify that the property owner understands the job requires running heavy equipment on a paved driveway, yard, etc., the property owner understands the risks involved in doing so, and waives any liability for damage to the driveway, yard, or whatever else is specified.

If I somehow implied any and all liability for anything period could be waived by a land owner/customer signing a blanket waiver of some sort, my apologies. That was not my intent at all.

Several on this thread have pointed out a variety of real risks to a business such as that contemplated by the OP. Some also have suggested those risks are of such magnitude that using a tractor for any business use is too risky to be reasonable and strategies to mitigate those risks are either cost prohibitive or non-existent.

My point was, and remains, there are insurance products and legal tools available to mitigate the risks to the contractor. While the general principles of appropriate risk mitigation (appropriate being defined by the risk tolerance of the contractor) are similar across the US and Canada, the details of exactly what is available, how much it costs, what specific forms to use for contracts, waivers, etc. are all specific to the area where the work is being performed so someone contemplating a business of this sort REALLY needs to consult with experts (insurance agent, attorney, accountant) in their locale. Without consulting those local experts, how much risk mitigation is needed, how much is available, and how much it costs are all unknowns.

Ignoring real risks is not advisable, but abandoning the idea of starting a small business based on an assumption that it’s far too risky and there’s no way around that other than prohibitively priced insurance and/or no viable defenses to frivolous lawsuits prior to researching the actual costs and available legal tools is, IMO, also not advisable.
I do not think that we are in disagreement; I was merely pointing out the limitations of waivers.

A waiver might well be effective in fending off a claim regarding typical/minor ruts in a yard from equipment transit, but it will not limit liability in many/or even most situations. Even with something as simple as ruts, it will come down to how bad are the ruts. To stop a suit, a judge would have to dismiss it (before trial)/issue a directed verdict (at trial) based on the claim being invalid as a matter of law (so clear to the judge - a very high threshold). Otherwise, it is a matter for a jury to decide.

As one whose soul bears the stain (an attorney), I would want people to understand what protections a waiver does and does not offer. I would have the same advice about forming an LLC, which is a frequent suggestion.

FWIW, my general advice is to have sufficient insurance for any business or activity in your life. Often the most important part of insurance coverage is their obligation to defend you; winning a law suit can often be an expensive process.
 
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NHSleddog

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B2650
Dec 19, 2019
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Southern, NH
... REALLY needs to consult with experts (insurance agent, attorney, accountant) in their locale. ....
Bingo.

In NH we use the RSA system of laws and our judges have a lot of leeway based on that. At the same time they throw out cases all the time. Injury lawyers up here actually earn their money - lol. The same cases in CA would be awarded millions I'm sure.
 
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bird dogger

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Kubota B2650 and lots of other equipment
Feb 24, 2019
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North Dakota
I’ve always jumped at the chance to help my neighbors out if it’s within my comfort zone, whether it's on their property or mine. Never any mention of fees but we do first discuss any hazards and make use of the “call before you dig” if there’s even a remote chance of a utility buried nearby. I’m by far the most “equipped” person in the neighborhood and also older than the new development neighbors. I consider it “paying it forward”, as it won’t be too many more years and it will be their turn to reciprocate for the old fart that’s been helping them over the years.

The one neighbor that is older has been slowly downsizing for a move into town from his 5 acre parcel. I’ve always tilled their garden, ground stumps, etc. for them over the years and they’ve helped me where they could. A few years ago, he was gifting some firearms to his grand daughters but didn’t dare to give them his semi-auto rifle. He called me over and said “Here, this is for you!”
Winchester 63.JPG

A 1930s model Winchester model 63! He said he still kept one other .22 for varmints around the yard.


Just the other day I did some welding for his project and he said he won’t be needing this in their townhome in a couple of months. He wouldn’t take a dime for it and insisted I have it!!
Winchester 9422.JPG

A 1974 Winchester model 9422!

I can hardly wait for spring and warm weather to do some target shooting!! Might have to sew up a leather scabbard for the B2650! Dang!! I hate being overpaid!!
 
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ctfjr

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L3800HST
Dec 7, 2009
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central ct
I have to admit I have done some gratis work for neighbors / friends. In thinking back I remember digging a 4x4x6 hole for a friend. I had to drive my tractor about a mile to his house with only an SMV and hazard lights. I had asked him to call 'call before you dig' and he told me he had. Afterwards he admitted he asked his wife to and she forgot.
After that whenever I did some digging for the neighbors I called my self.
Between driving there (I wasn't comfortable doing it) and the call before you dig issue it left me with a bad feeling. Now I happily clear the piles of snow the plow leaves in front of their mailboxes but would have to think seriously if one of them asked me to till their garden. . .
 

GeoHorn

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May 18, 2018
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Texas
I’ve always jumped at the chance to help my neighbors out if it’s within my comfort zone, whether it's on their property or mine. Never any mention of fees but we do first discuss any hazards and make use of the “call before you dig” if there’s even a remote chance of a utility buried nearby. I’m by far the most “equipped” person in the neighborhood and also older than the new development neighbors. I consider it “paying it forward”, as it won’t be too many more years and it will be their turn to reciprocate for the old fart that’s been helping them over the years.

The one neighbor that is older has been slowly downsizing for a move into town from his 5 acre parcel. I’ve always tilled their garden, ground stumps, etc. for them over the years and they’ve helped me where they could. A few years ago, he was gifting some firearms to his grand daughters but didn’t dare to give them his semi-auto rifle. He called me over and said “Here, this is for you!”
View attachment 76348
A 1930s model Winchester model 63! He said he still kept one other .22 for varmints around the yard.


Just the other day I did some welding for his project and he said he won’t be needing this in their townhome in a couple of months. He wouldn’t take a dime for it and insisted I have it!!
View attachment 76349
A 1974 Winchester model 9422!

I can hardly wait for spring and warm weather to do some target shooting!! Might have to sew up a leather scabbard for the B2650! Dang!! I hate being overpaid!!
That Win 9422 is a sweet rifle. I have one in .22 Mag and it is purely a joy. In 1976 I paid $175 for it at a Gibson‘s store in Copperas Cove, Tx. (That’s it, third from left.) Those models trade today for over $1,000….IF…BIG IF… you can find one anybody’ll sell. (Let me know if you decide to let it go.) ;)

28627F61-057F-40CE-B408-18D1CB1F54B2.jpeg