M4500DT cleaning oil galleries

[Fishfarmer]

I have the engine stripped, pistons out, cam shaft out but the mains are left in because the engine is still on the tractor and it is staying there. I don’t want to go as far as remove the block. I am hoping the mains are okay, the rod bearings have some wear and some contaminant scoring, they are not shot or spun but new ones are going in. I would like to run a cleaner through the crank and through the mains and flush it out of the rod journals. What’s the consensus on cleaning through with kerosene then I have hot water detergent flush, final rinse hot water, blow air and run oil through passages? All other galleries and components I have brushes for, tappet guides, rockers and cam can be cleaned with brake cleaner then oiled.

I have read to use X prime pump to run cleaner through, then using it to prime oil pump with new oil and prime until oil pressure is showing on gauge and running out of the rockers.

Other method suggests to use the oil pump itself on a drill and feed oil through before cranking.

I could also use the oil pump to run kerosene through the system first to clean it, the pump has had some wear and I am installing a new oil pump anyway. I thought a better way would be to back flush kerosene/cleaner through the rod journal holes backwards through the mains, this would push any contaminant through the center of the mains and back up the oil feed line, but I can’t think of a practical way to do it. Also what’s the Recommended assembly lube for start-up?



Second I have some ridge on one of the cylinder liners about 1/3 way around the cylinder at the combustion side which doesn’t pass fingernail test. I am to understand It is bore taper from detonation. All other cylinders have some ridge which can hardly be felt with fingers, passes fingernail test and I think will hone out. All cylinders measure within manual allowance limits, including the bore tapered liner. My question is does the ridge need to be removed on the bad cylinder? Old rings are pretty worn and I am replacing with new ones. I was always told to remove ridges putting new rings in because they can break or damage the ring lands?

 

[Pau7220]

the engine is still on the tractor and it is staying there

It’s your choice to do any or all of the above as long as you have disposable finances and don’t mind doing the job over when you don’t get the expected results. You really need to get a WSM and do the proper measurements, then face the facts it’s time to visit a machine shop.

 

[Fishfarmer]

It’s your choice to do any or all of the above as long as you have disposable finances and don’t mind doing the job over when you don’t get the expected results. You really need to get a WSM and do the proper measurements, then face the facts it’s time to visit a machine shop.

I have a workshop manual and the measurements are within tolerances.

 

[Fishfarmer]

I have a workshop manual and the measurements are within tolerances.

It’s your choice to do any or all of the above as long as you have disposable finances and don’t mind doing the job over when you don’t get the expected results. You really need to get a WSM and do the proper measurements, then face the facts it’s time to visit a machine shop.

Do you have any conclusions what I could be doing wrong and why I might to have to do everything again?
It is very expensive and very time consuming to completely recondition an old tractor like this. I am spending about $1000 on needed parts. Complete reconditioning would cost over $3000 and a great deal more time to remove the engine from tractor and the added costs of machine shop work would go over the 3k

 

[Mark_BX25D]

It’s your choice to do any or all of the above as long as you have disposable finances and don’t mind doing the job over when you don’t get the expected results. You really need to get a WSM and do the proper measurements, then face the facts it’s time to visit a machine shop.

Bingo. Do it right the first time, and cry once.

Or not. Your choice.

 

[hagrid]

If contaminants scored your big end bearings then your mains are just as bad or worse.

 

[Fishfarmer]

If contaminants scored your big end bearings then your mains are just as bad or worse.

This is the scored one and wear on the combustion force end. All other 6 like this. 40 years of wear. I wouldn't think mains would be as bad because they rotate and don't have to stand explosive forces. I am no scientific engineer but I reason the mains would be no where near perfect but wouldn't think they could be worse than the big ends, why would you think they would be worse? I don't expect the engine to last 20 more years but if i get a few years of little use slashing 3 times a year I would be happy if I done have a catastrophic failure?

 

[hagrid]

OK... not worse. But any damage from contamination will be common to any force lubricated part. If all you're looking for is another three years then you might get them.

 

[Pau7220]

Do you have any conclusions what I could be doing wrong and why I might to have to do everything again?

I don’t understand how you can have a ridge half way down a cylinder “which doesn‘t pass the fingernail test” with bore taper and still measure within tolerance. You can make them look pretty with a ball hone but it won’t make them square and concentric. If you have contamination scoring on the rod bearings, I’m sure the mains will show the same. If you have that much contamination in the lube system of that engine, there’s really no way to efficiently clean it without a hot dip tank.

Seriously, I hate to see anyone make a 1k mistake.

 

[Fishfarmer]

OK... not worse. But any damage from contamination will be common to any force lubricated part. If all you're looking for is another three years then you might get them.

Yes I see you have a BMW high performance engine which would have very little tolerances. The bearing oil clearance tolerances on these are .00138- .00366 with wearable limit up to .0079" so up to 4 thou over. These are an old push-rod tappet diesel engine which often can run for years even with blowby and piston slap. My pistons are good no scuffing so just replacing rings wrist pins and rod ends. So much more work to pull the engine from the tractor and is a bit too worn out to be worth a refurbish. 1978 model. Thanks for you advice.

 

[Fishfarmer]

I don’t understand how you can have a ridge half way down a cylinder “which doesn‘t pass the fingernail test” with bore taper and still measure within tolerance. You can make them look pretty with a ball hone but it won’t make them square and concentric. If you have contamination scoring on the rod bearings, I’m sure the mains will show the same. If you have that much contamination in the lube system of that engine, there’s really no way to efficiently clean it without a hot dip tank.

Seriously, I hate to see anyone make a 1k mistake.

This ridge is not half way down the cylinder. It is only 5/16"-3/8" down the cylinder where the top compression ring has been at its maximum height at TDC. Its common for an old engine to wear a thin ridge around this area as the bore wears. There is what is called a ridge removal tool which reams the top part of this ridge. Its old engines that can have this ridge, they have fixed these problems in newer engines. What I said is a third of the way around the cylinder not down the cylinder like a crescent moon and its only 3/8" down where the piston ring doesn't go further up. It is a little more on the detonation side due to the compression forces uneven on the combustion side of the piston. The cylinder liner is 3.22835"-3.22921" and has allowable wear tolerance of .0059" My one poor cylinder measures about 3-4 thou over the standard size of 3.22921" although this is in bore taper, it is still within allowable limit of wear. I don't expect to put it back together and its like new but I only use it a few times a year brush cutting my 5 acre property. I thought I might get a few more years out of it because its not worth hot dipping and reconditioning the engine. The tractor is not good enough to be worth that and all the extra work. This has been a much easier approach to leave it on the tractor. The one cylinder might be down on compression a little because it wont be perfect but with new rings and a deglaze hone, it should come up a bit ( I know not to get junk in the journals). Thanks for your concern I might be making a 1k mistake and maybe so. If I get a catastrophic failure I will let you know.

 

[Pau7220]

have a ridge half way down the cylinder

Sorry, that auto-corrected from half way around. (Gotta watch this new iPad)
My machine shop training was ridge removal before removing pistons to prevent breaking the ring lands during piston removal, of course those were the days of piston knurling.
The point I was trying to make was a ridge reamer will remove material from the entire circumference leaving a recess in the remaining 2/3 of the cylinder. If you remove 3/8” depth X .010” - .015” to remove the ridge on only one cylinder, you will change the compression ratio on that one cylinder, affecting balance and performance. Catastrophic failure is unlikely if assembled properly. Full performance and longevity is also unlikely. If you’re set on doing it this way, I would avoid the flushing attempt.

 

[Fishfarmer]

Sorry, that auto-corrected. (Gotta watch this new iPad)
My machine shop training was ridge removal before removing pistons to prevent breaking the ring lands during piston removal, of course those were the days of piston knurling.
The point I was trying to make was a 3 bladed ridge remover will remove material from the entire circumference leaving a recess in the remaining 2/3 of the cylinder. If you remove 3/8” depth X .010” - .015” to remove the ridge on only one cylinder, you will change the compression ratio on that one cylinder, affecting balance and performance. Catastrophic failure is unlikely if assembled properly. Full performance and longevity is also unlikely. If you’re set on doing it this way, I would avoid the flushing attempt.

Thanks Paul I will take note of that. There is very little contaminant I found in the sump oil filter etc so maybe just keep up the oil changes is a good idea. There obviously has been some contamination over the years so I will clean where I can without trying to run anything through the crank. The ridge tool is a Lisle one blade scraper with rollers to center on the cylinder. I have used one many years ago but from what I read it will only take off the protruding edge and remove the protruding ridge? It supposed to stay parallel to the cylinder, but yes I don't want it digging in to the cylinder liner on the opposite side? What concerned me is the rings were worn down in gap and thickness so my original question was if I don't remove the ridge can it damage the new rings or ring lands at startup? The pistons came out fine with no damage to the ring-lands. I think because the rings were worn they came out easy. There is no scuffing on the pistons and the crown edge and ring lands look fine. They measure to the manual spec and have no wear on the top edge heat dissipation grooves around the piston crown.

 

[Pau7220]

so my original question was if I don't remove the ridge can it damage the new rings or ring lands at startup? The pistons came out fine with no damage

Yes it can. Will it? Unknown ... it's a crap shoot. At the very least it will immediately start to wear the upper edge of that new, sharp top compression ring affecting the longevity of the work you are doing.