What is an acceptable rate of drop for loader buckets, backhoe buckets and outriggers? My new B2601 with a BH70 backhoe leaked down to where the backhoe bucket was dragging on the ground after driving just 200 yards. Messick's rebuilt the cylinder and I haven't had a chance to use it yet, but the bucket drops down about half way in about two hours parked in the unheated barn. The outriggers drop just an inch in days. I suspect that the leak down will increase considerably when the oil is warmed by use or weather. I have suspected the valve was leaking, but Messick's found a considerable leak when they tested the cylinder. The service manager said that Kubota uses a rate that is unbelievably high for warranty purposes. Any feedback would be appreciated.
Leak Down Rate
- Thread starter lynnmor
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TheOldHokie
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85Hokie
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I too noticed that time and age and weather are ALL factors in the droop!
In the cold - it seems that my backhoe bucket will drop faster ( when parked and off) then when warm.
Then again - it could be my imagination too - I walk out to the shed a lot MORE in the warm than the cold, so it might be the same droop over time.
The outriggers will also fall to the ground - it never happens when running however.
I am like Dan - it should take DAYS not hours to fall - and never with the machine running!
In the cold - it seems that my backhoe bucket will drop faster ( when parked and off) then when warm.
Then again - it could be my imagination too - I walk out to the shed a lot MORE in the warm than the cold, so it might be the same droop over time.
The outriggers will also fall to the ground - it never happens when running however.
I am like Dan - it should take DAYS not hours to fall - and never with the machine running!
I would not spend ANY time OR money on a system that would remain raised for more than 15-20 minutes with the engine off…as long as it remained in-position with the engine at idle. After-all….no implement should be left in a raised condition while unattended anyway….it should be placed upon the ground or jack-stand.
If that bothers anyone…. they don’t have enough things to keep themselves occupied in life and should find another task to keep them busy. IMO
If that bothers anyone…. they don’t have enough things to keep themselves occupied in life and should find another task to keep them busy. IMO
TheOldHokie
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I think you need to revist your analysis. You might want to start with why you think engine running matters.
Dan
The engine running matters, but probably not in the way you think. A running engine keeps the hydraulic oil warm and if anything, increases the rate of droop.
My response was in the belief he was speaking of implements other than only the FEL since he named multiple implements.…for example the 3-pt hitch…which was specifically what I was thinking of.… of course, the FEL bucket is a different matter.
Thanks for pointing out my error/oversight. I still would not worry myself too much about a FEL bucket that held position for up for 15-20 minutes.
Here’s one way I’ve used my bucket with the engine not running:
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TheOldHokie
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The way I think is it doesn't matter what state the engine is in period.
Which brings us back to 15-20 minute leakdown. There are many legitimate scenarios where a loader cylinder has to hold for far longer than 20 minutes. When working I routinely have a load in the bucket far longer than that. I expect my new LA525 loader and bucket to hold its load with very minimal leakage for hours if not days and it does. The three point on that tractor will also hold the 750# Woods mower up over night - I know because I have forgotten to let it down when I finished. In fact I am pretty sure it has been up for days.
Even the 40 year old loader and valve on the B7200 will hold for hours. Of course it did get 4 new cylinders when it started leaking down in your 15-20 minute range, The 3pt on that tractor is a different matter. Even during operation the 3pt on it is on the ground in 15 minutes if I don't keep bumping it back up. That is annoying as heck, totally unacceptable, and needs to be fixed.
Dan
Dan, I didn’t mean to imply that I am satisfied that my equipment leaks down only in 15-20 mins…
I’m actually a maintenance-nut and my FEL & 3-pt will not leak down any detectable amount for hours on-end! …. but I do not leave the equipment in raised position overnight or unattended for safety reasons. (I actually did leave the 3-pt up overnight once by oversight and the next day it had dropped only about 2-inches from full Up.….but that was an “accident” …at-risk of waiting for someone or some pet to be seriously injured.)
When I work beneath my raised FEL or 3-pt I always use jackstands. The high jackstand is only about $90 and I consider it good insurance.
I’m actually a maintenance-nut and my FEL & 3-pt will not leak down any detectable amount for hours on-end! …. but I do not leave the equipment in raised position overnight or unattended for safety reasons. (I actually did leave the 3-pt up overnight once by oversight and the next day it had dropped only about 2-inches from full Up.….but that was an “accident” …at-risk of waiting for someone or some pet to be seriously injured.)
When I work beneath my raised FEL or 3-pt I always use jackstands. The high jackstand is only about $90 and I consider it good insurance.
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GreensvilleJay
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There is no way a NEW machine should 'leak down' ANY of the cylinders in hours let alone minutes. If it does either seals or spools ain't working right,period. Any leakdown means oil is moving,somehow, somewhere. Could be dirty oil,bad seal,spoolvalve mishomed.
I've got a '57 D-14 that STILL leaves the rockshaft up for days with 350# on it.Only repair in my 20 years has been the hydraulic hose to the cylinder.
I agree though that ALL 'things' should be touching the ground at the end of the shift,and proper supports under 'things' while working on them.
I've got a '57 D-14 that STILL leaves the rockshaft up for days with 350# on it.Only repair in my 20 years has been the hydraulic hose to the cylinder.
I agree though that ALL 'things' should be touching the ground at the end of the shift,and proper supports under 'things' while working on them.
TheOldHokie
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99,99999% agreement. I would simply say any machine, new or other wise, that leaks down in 15 minutes is defective and needs to be repaired.
Dan
I am not happy with the rate of leak down of the backhoe bucket, that is why I started this thread hoping to gather thoughts of others. I bought the unit new and had several issues with the backhoe. The selling dealer picked up the unit and held it hostage for six weeks, then said they replaced the cylinder in question. I have my doubts about that replacement, there were no signs of work. For some reason the cylinder held when I picked it up, so I brought it home with none of the other issues fixed. Once home, the leak down resumed.
I took it to another dealer (Messick's) where they rebuilt the cylinder and saw no obvious internal problems with it. They did say that oil was bypassing when tested but maybe they still had the spool involved. They weren't able to get parts to fix the other problems blaming a lost shipment. Once again I took it home after two weeks and the leak down resumed, but not as fast. I haven't timed the leak down yet, my iPhone sent the photos to iCloud purgatory along with the embedded times. My guess from the beginning is that there is debris or other issue with the spool involved.
I'll time the leak down under various conditions as I get a chance.
So your issue is the backhoe bucket rotating and not the boom dropping? This is interesting to me because I have noticed with my backhoe, the boom is more likely to drop faster than the bucket does, simply because of the amount of weight the boom cylinder feels, as compared to the bucket cylinder, when the backhoe is at rest.
Seems (if the general circuit is intact without leaks that would show up on the ground) the issue is likely either the control valve or internal cylinder leakage.
Since you had the cylinder rebuilt, you seem to be on track suspecting the control valve.
Just to satisfy my curiosity though, will you verify you are talking about the bucket rotating downward, rather than the boom falling downward over time. In my case, it was the boom, but I just took five seconds to put the boom lock in place and it was never an issue. BUT also in my case, the boom stayed in place for a pretty long time before it fell enough to be noticed. Probably at least an hour, but I never timed it.
Bucket rotation due to gravity pull on the bucket? Probably days, not hours or minutes...
TheOldHokie
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You can easily eliminate the spool - curl the bucket and set it on something to support and hold it in that position. Remove the hoses from the valve and plug them. Try not to loose much fluid in the process. You can to it on the cylinder ports if that is easier. If the bucket leaks down with the circuit plugged/capped its bypassing in the cylinder.
Dan
Still would like to know for sure what we are talking about. Is it the bucket dropping, or the boom dropping?
May be clear to others by not to me...but I am not the sharpest tool in the box...
I didn't state the problem clearly, it is the boom cylinder that is the problem. Locking the boom every time I want to move the tractor a bit is unacceptable to me. I hope that someone can direct me to Kubota's standard as to what the maximum leak down rate might be.
TheOldHokie
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I doubt there is such a number. But 15 minutes is not even close to acceptable by any reasonable standard.
Dan
2 inches per hour is (or was) the "acceptable" rate. That is measured at the ram. Mark your ram with it at normal extension (up), about 6" or so from the cylinder body. Then go drive around, or whatever (don't use the hoe). After one hour, measure how close the line you marked is to the cylinder body. If closer than 4", you have a case.
if under warranty (1 year on backhoes), let the dealer handle it-and advise them of your measurements that were taken. They will have to verify it, then they'll have to isolate whether it's a valve leak (rare) or a cylinder. More likely a cylinder problem.
if out of warranty, you can either pay them or you can fix it yourself.
When I had to rebuild a cylinder, I did more than just swap seals. Always measure the bore for egg and taper; also inspect well for scratching. Then measure the piston for egg. Inspect it for scratching, cracking, etc. Lastly, the ram rod. Have to measure it for bend as they are often bent (especially boom cylinders and then bucket cylinders on loaders). A bent ram will never work properly. The tolerance is little, different cylinders have different tolerances, but the small-ish ones were just a few thousandths.
GreensvilleJay
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