LAYING 1" POLY PIPE WITH A SUBSOILER

[Flintknapper]

My 1HP Goulds shallow well pump produces 10 gal per minute from a 2" well.
That is 14,400 gals per day.
Hardly a "veritable creek"

Yes, I have a shallow well drilled just above our Fish Pond (about 1 acre). It pumps 12 gpm and I use it to help keep the pond level where I want it in the summer months. It pumps just about what the OP states his 'spring' produces per day.

I suppose we need to consider where one lives when defining 'Spring or creek'. Where I live (Texas) a spring is typically ground water seepage. A spring 'branch' is gently flowing water from a spring source or collection of springs (generally not more than 3' ft. across and a foot deep). A creek is flowing water that can be any width or depth and typically feeds a larger body of water (river or impoundment).

I've been places in New Mexico where what they call a 'River' I could step across in spots and wasn't holding as much water as I had melted ice in an igloo cooler.

To me.....12 gallons a minute is a pretty good flow of ground water. Sometimes folks use the word spring synonymous with a 'brook' or small 'creek' also. Different parts of the country we get different interpretations.

 

[flyidaho]

I know how much flow my spring has when water lever is high underground somewhere, and 5 GPM is flowing. The picture of that tub you showed in the post above sure surprised me.

I would have expected to see a bit of a water fall coming over the edge, rather than just a little bit on the side of the tank...

Are you sure you got the 12 GPM figure right, rather than 1.2 GPM?

My "water history." Moved onto my first piece 5 acres of raw ground, with no debt and no mortgage loan, so roughed it for a while, like 10 years using nothing but rain water, in semi desert high Idaho! Hauled my drinking water, rain gutters on the shop and hangar, and buried tanks made it doable. Drilled a well, 425' deep, 1 GPM, so my buried tanks continued in use, a separate pressure pump being used. 40 + years later, on 40, soon to be 70 acres (still no loans or mortgage) I purposely put a small (1/3) pump in my 187' deep well, guesstimated by the driller @8 GPM, as I have a 900 gallon plastic tank in my hangar, besides the usual pressure tank, so I would not "out pump" the well. So yeah, I am sure it's 12 GPM! Few will have a greater appreciation of this spring, except a buddy in Prescott AZ, whose well puts out 200 GPD, and who has to BUY a tanker load from time to time.

$350.00 for a CAT skidsteer with hydraulic trencher, for 24 hrs., cheaper than I thought. That usually doesn't happen dealing with them!

 

[JohnDB]

"A Grundfos SQ Flex pump and about 650 watts of solar will handle that just fine" I like the sound of your system. I installed a SQFlex about 7 years ago and it's been brilliant.

In case of interest: 5 x 250W panels feed it, probably oversized but I wanted to make sure it worked well for cattle water in winter overcast days with a bit of extra delivery to the header tanks in case one of the 4-legged hooligans busted something. Highest tank is about 50m (150 ft? in old money) head, use differential floats in the tanks and Square D pressure switch. Had to clean the solar panels only 2 or 3 times - sharp edges on the aluminium framing the panels are uncomfortable for the birds to perch on, so they don't crap on the panels.

 

[D2Cat]

You mentioned renting a skid steer with trenching attachment. You would be more productive with a trencher with a backhoe. Probably dig any depth you need at 10-15' per/min. Have the hoe for larger holes (if needed) for hydrant connections including drains and a backfill blade to quickly get crumbs back in trench.

From your picture is doesn't look like moisture is going to be a problem but when digging narrow trenches if one picks up a hand full of dirt from the dig, squeezes it in their hand, then opens the hand to let the dirt fall, if it clumps you will have a challenge getting it back in the slot!

Good luck with your project.

 

[flyidaho]

"A Grundfos SQ Flex pump and about 650 watts of solar will handle that just fine" I like the sound of your system. I installed a SQFlex about 7 years ago and it's been brilliant.

In case of interest: 5 x 250W panels feed it, probably oversized but I wanted to make sure it worked well for cattle water in winter overcast days with a bit of extra delivery to the header tanks in case one of the 4-legged hooligans busted something. Highest tank is about 50m (150 ft? in old money) head, use differential floats in the tanks and Square D pressure switch. Had to clean the solar panels only 2 or 3 times - sharp edges on the aluminium framing the panels are uncomfortable for the birds to perch on, so they don't crap on the panels.

Back in my solar work days, I installed a bunch of the Grundfos pumps, including the fabbing the mounts for the solar, they work great and are still the best choice for serious water moving. Cheaper diaphram type pumps don't compare. MORE solar is always better, the pump can't be hurt by it, and now that I'm not a dealer and can't take advantage of pallet quanities at wholesale prices, I will be buying used panels from a seller near enough for me to drive there to pick them up, as the larger panels have to ship motor freight, and I have a Prius. I'll actually be able to pump 7-8 GPM, I found a better SQ Flex model for my needs, they are all the same price so why not. My new water line will run right past my 4 KW grid tied solar array, I will put a yard hydrant there, and take advantage of the 64 PSI (at that elevation) to hose them off once a week during this time of year, with no rain for weeks they get a bit dusty.

 

[flyidaho]

You mentioned renting a skid steer with trenching attachment. You would be more productive with a trencher with a backhoe. Probably dig any depth you need at 10-15' per/min. Have the hoe for larger holes (if needed) for hydrant connections including drains and a backfill blade to quickly get crumbs back in trench.

From your picture is doesn't look like moisture is going to be a problem but when digging narrow trenches if one picks up a hand full of dirt from the dig, squeezes it in their hand, then opens the hand to let the dirt fall, if it clumps you will have a challenge getting it back in the slot!

Good luck with your project.

My CAT dealer doesn't have a trencher, just the skidsteer trencher, thus that decision was made for me. The 2 or 3 tees for hydrants, and the needed couplers, will all be assembled while the line is above ground, so no big holes needed, just a narrow slot. The only thing holding me up now is I'm waiting on the racnsher seller to get the paperwork in order, the land isn't mine yet! Plus he's out of state.

 

[D2Cat]

With that equipment I'd determine before starting where you want the hydrants, then go there and cut a trench perpendicular to your water line about 6-8' long and the a bit deeper then you''re burying the water line. Then when you come with the water line you'll just have to shovel out the crumbs to have the drain for the hydrants.

Also, to reduce labor, when you get to the run for the drain slow down the digging speed of the trencher (stop movement of the skid steer) just past the "T" intersection and use a sharp shooter to push the crumbs that are now in the ditch over to the moving trencher teeth CAREFULLY.

 

[flyidaho]

The rancher is still two weeks away from making the trip up from Florida to finalize the deal, and meanwhile his cousin has turned his cattle out into the property. Even though he gave me the go ahead to start the project before we officially close on the deal, he also said that he promised the cousin one last year of grazing rights. I also have a possible 25 K crane repair (day job) come up, that and the hard ground this time of year makes me want to put off the project until next spring. Right after the frost comes out of the ground, MUCH easier digging/trenching.

 

[PoTreeBoy]

The rancher is still two weeks away from making the trip up from Florida to finalize the deal, and meanwhile his cousin has turned his cattle out into the property. Even though he gave me the go ahead to start the project before we officially close on the deal, he also said that he promised the cousin one last year of grazing rights. I also have a possible 25 K crane repair (day job) come up, that and the hard ground this time of year makes me want to put off the project until next spring. Right after the frost comes out of the ground, MUCH easier digging/trenching.

I guess you're okay with the grazing thing? You may want to make the deal contingent on a $1 lease with the cousin or something so you don't inadvertently get into a liability issue due to the cousin's activities.

I've developed sensitivity to potential liability on my older years

 

[flyidaho]

I got my "Heavy Hitch" brand sub soiler, just what I wanted and seems to be heavy where it needs to be, and of course it fits in my existing trailer hitch attachment. It hasn't rained in over a month here, but somewhat to me surprise the L3301 buried it to 12-14" and, in low range, motored right along like it almost wasn't there. I won't be using it to lay my 2100' length of pipe directly, I'll rent a skidsteer/trencher combo for that. But, since I need to take the slope out of the hillside where I'll be setting a 10' diameter metal stock tank, it has occured to me that breaking the ground up with the ripper by making multiple passes should make it easy enough (no rocks!) to then use the scraper and/or the front end bucket.

Some here may remember I used to have a mini excavator , a Kubota U25, but I sold it for what I paid for it, after completing several major projects and then just letting it sit unused for almost a year, taking up room. Little did I know I'd be buying this additional 30 acres and then dreaming up this "spring moving" project. So, I will try not to think how handy the mini would be, while making do with what implements I do have. I brfeifly consdered getting a Woods backhoe attachment, but after running a mini x I think/know I'd be underwhelmed by it's performance. My first K tractor had one, better than nothing but not even close to the utility of a mini x.

 

[fried1765]

I got my "Heavy Hitch" brand sub soiler, just what I wanted and seems to be heavy where it needs to be, and of course it fits in my existing trailer hitch attachment. It hasn't rained in over a month here, but somewhat to me surprise the L3301 buried it to 12-14" and, in low range, motored right along like it almost wasn't there. I won't be using it to lay my 2100' length of pipe directly, I'll rent a skidsteer/trencher combo for that. But, since I need to take the slope out of the hillside where I'll be setting a 10' diameter metal stock tank, it has occured to me that breaking the ground up with the ripper by making multiple passes should make it easy enough (no rocks!) to then use the scraper and/or the front end bucket.

Some here may remember I used to have a mini excavator , a Kubota U25, but I sold it for what I paid for it, after completing several major projects and then just letting it sit unused for almost a year, taking up room. Little did I know I'd be buying this additional 30 acres and then dreaming up this "spring moving" project. So, I will try not to think how handy the mini would be, while making do with what implements I do have. I brfeifly consdered getting a Woods backhoe attachment, but after running a mini x I think/know I'd be underwhelmed by it's performance. My first K tractor had one, better than nothing but not even close to the utility of a mini x.

Mini's are absolutely the best, but a dedicated Kubota backhoe is far more robust than a tractor BH attachment..
Kubota M62/M59/L48/L47

 

[flyidaho]

After making two passes with my ripper, it occured to me that shoveling out the trench by hand with a trench shovel would be easy. It was, for the first 100' and until the temperture hit 90+. That got me thinking, so I made up a 2" 90 degree elbow ( bought it actually, a standard 90 of 2" EMT/metal conduit, and devised a secure connection to the ripper, while still allowing it's removal with just two bolts.

The issue I'm having in operation though, is that it keeps floating up, the bottom of the 90 has more "float" (riding up on the dirt) then the downward force of the ripper. Plus the bit of friction of the tubing going thru the 90 doesn't help. What I seem to need, is a way to lock in the down position on my three point. I guess I could try adding weight back there, maybe a couple hundred pounds would be all it needs. I assume there is no way to lock it into postion?

 

[Elliott in GA]

You could chain or strap the 3 point arms to a clevis on the drawbar. It might hold them in place, but you are risking putting forces on things in ways that they were not designed to do.

You have to assess the risk/amount of force.

 

[D2Cat]

After making two passes with my ripper, it occured to me that shoveling out the trench by hand with a trench shovel would be easy. It was, for the first 100' and until the temperture hit 90+. That got me thinking, so I made up a 2" 90 degree elbow ( bought it actually, a standard 90 of 2" EMT/metal conduit, and devised a secure connection to the ripper, while still allowing it's removal with just two bolts.

The issue I'm having in operation though, is that it keeps floating up, the bottom of the 90 has more "float" (riding up on the dirt) then the downward force of the ripper. Plus the bit of friction of the tubing going thru the 90 doesn't help. What I seem to need, is a way to lock in the down position on my three point. I guess I could try adding weight back there, maybe a couple hundred pounds would be all it needs. I assume there is no way to lock it into postion?

If you're using a sub-soiler (or that type of implement) the adjustment of the toe is what keeps it in the ground and wanting to go DOWN. As long as your tubing is securely attached to the bar in front of it and set just above the heel it should stay there. Sounds like you need to shorten your top link a bit to get the toe going down.

 

[flyidaho]

If you're using a sub-soiler (or that type of implement) the adjustment of the toe is what keeps it in the ground and wanting to go DOWN. As long as your tubing is securely attached to the bar in front of it and set just above the heel it should stay there. Sounds like you need to shorten your top link a bit to get the toe going down.

I got it done, all it took was about 240 pounds of scrap iron on the hitch, that and I shortened up the 90 a bit, more a 70 degree sweep now, but still enough to get the tubing to curve just right. I never thought of using the drawbar to rig off of, that would obviously work and would have been easier and quicker than hauling the iron down from the shop!

BUT...., now that I have it fine tuned, it is working so good, I will not rent a trencher as it's doing the job just fine, I laid 900' after posting here earlier, whining about it floating up. I'll be done with all 2000' by tomorrow. It does not seem to pull the pipe already laid at all (my big fear) , or put any stress on my couplers, and all I have to do is walk back with a rake and center the scree over the trench, and then run the tractor over it a couple times, and you can't hardly tell it's been ripped up! This is 200 PSI poly, not the thin wall stuff. When I come to the end of a 300' roll I take the attachment off (two bolts) the ripper, feed the pipe thru it, then put it back on, and then wrestle with it until I get the compression coupler lined up and tightened down. The EMT 2 " 90 was $24.00, and the ripper $90.00, I already had the hitch attachment.

 

[flyidaho]

If you're using a sub-soiler (or that type of implement) the adjustment of the toe is what keeps it in the ground and wanting to go DOWN. As long as your tubing is securely attached to the bar in front of it and set just above the heel it should stay there. Sounds like you need to shorten your top link a bit to get the toe going down.
[/QUOTE

Excellent point, especially as I did the opposite, lengthened the link at one stage, in an effort to get more down, before I figured out what was going on. I could probably get by with less weight if I messed with the top link a bit more, but it's working so good now I'm not touching anything. I did shorten it back up earlier, that and the bit of weight was the key

 

[PoTreeBoy]

I got it done, all it took was about 240 pounds of scrap iron on the hitch, that and I shortened up the 90 a bit, more a 70 degree sweep now, but still enough to get the tubing to curve just right. I never thought of using the drawbar to rig off of, that would obviously work and would have been easier and quicker than hauling the iron down from the shop!

BUT...., now that I have it fine tuned, it is working so good, I will not rent a trencher as it's doing the job just fine, I laid 900' after posting here earlier, whining about it floating up. I'll be done with all 2000' by tomorrow. It does not seem to pull the pipe already laid at all (my big fear) , or put any stress on my couplers, and all I have to do is walk back with a rake and center the scree over the trench, and then run the tractor over it a couple times, and you can't hardly tell it's been ripped up! This is 200 PSI poly, not the thin wall stuff. When I come to the end of a 300' roll I take the attachment off (two bolts) the ripper, feed the pipe thru it, then put it back on, and then wrestle with it until I get the compression coupler lined up and tightened down. The EMT 2 " 90 was $24.00, and the ripper $90.00, I already had the hitch attachment.

Good deal. I'm impressed my that straight trench, you must have laid out a field before!

 

[flyidaho]

It's hotter then blazes outside and I am throwing water out like a spendthrift! No leaks in the line, all 2100' of it, now I'm just waiting for my 2100 gallon (odd, same as the pipe run, just noticed that) storage tank, plus a 500 gallon "header" tank for the bottom pump to live in, now it's in a open horse trough. The spring is STILL at 12 GPM, and with a 1040 watt solar array (used panels, four 260 watt panels at $79.00 each, a great deal, and that's coming from a guy who sold new solar gear for decades: https://santansolar.com/) after all the pipe friction and distance, I'm getting almost 7 GPM up top. The bottom line will be once the 2100 g tank is installed, then I'll have a handle on GPD. I may add a bit more solar also, bought 5 panels, racked 4. It won't raise the max per minute pumped any, just continue it longer and start it early. Starts at a dribble, maxes out for hours, 5 or 6, then dribbles again, thus the storage tank.