L3901: problem with cold start

[MarkL]

Hi Everyone and Happy New Year.
I am a newcomer to the forum and having recently purchased a new L3901 last summer, I'm seeking some advice.
My HST 3901 has a land pride snow blade, 9 hours of operating time, parked in a covered barn which is open at the front.
The temps upstate NY have been pretty harsh and I haven't used the tractor for 6 days or so.
Yesterday I turned the ignition, after waiting for the 'glow plug' light to go off - the tractor would not start. Fair enough it's been cold, but I was surprised, only 9 hours on the clock.
I jump started and let the engine run at 1000 revs for 15 minutes.
Put the HST to 'M', increased the revs to 3k and started to clear the snow. After 5 minutes the engine died. I turned it over, started first time and began again. The engine spluttered and died. This time I left the tractor idling at 1.5k revs for 20 mins.
I continued to clear the snow, not raising the revs above 2k - quite frankly I was too frightened to go above this and was concerned with any damage I may have done to the engine.
Can someone please explain why the engine died on me and why the battery was flat. What am I doing wrong?
Thanks.. and don't hold back on the advise.

 

[85Hokie]

do you have treatment in your fuel? Sounds as if you have enough to run, but not enough to be under load or higher RPM's..... Might look at fuel filters too - may be gummed up with frozen moisture or algae.

add some water removal / algae-side in the fuel, as for the battery - cold days will suck the life out of a battery in a quick hurry - most use a battery tender to keep the battery in top tip shape.

 

[mdhughes]

Were you leaning to the right when the tractor died? The reason I ask is when I first got my L3901DT the engine kept dying on me and it turned out to be the seat safety switch.

When I started my L3901DT Saturday, it was about 10F, I waited for the glow plug light to go out and started it. It raised the RPMs by itself to around 1,100 RPMs.

 

[Yooper]

If it shut off like you turned the key its probably the seat switch. If it died by slowing down and sputtering its probably the fuel filter plugged from possible gelling. Might be summer blend fuel?

I suspect your battery has an issue. If the terminals are tight at the battery and no sign of them getting hot at the starter, either test it with a voltmeter (should read 12.6 volts for how new it is) or get it tested at an auto parts store.

 

[bluelou212]

Hi Everyone and Happy New Year.
I am a newcomer to the forum and having recently purchased a new L3901 last summer, I'm seeking some advice.
My HST 3901 has a land pride snow blade, 9 hours of operating time, parked in a covered barn which is open at the front.
The temps upstate NY have been pretty harsh and I haven't used the tractor for 6 days or so.
Yesterday I turned the ignition, after waiting for the 'glow plug' light to go off - the tractor would not start. Fair enough it's been cold, but I was surprised, only 9 hours on the clock.
I jump started and let the engine run at 1000 revs for 15 minutes.
Put the HST to 'M', increased the revs to 3k and started to clear the snow. After 5 minutes the engine died. I turned it over, started first time and began again. The engine spluttered and died. This time I left the tractor idling at 1.5k revs for 20 mins.
I continued to clear the snow, not raising the revs above 2k - quite frankly I was too frightened to go above this and was concerned with any damage I may have done to the engine.
Can someone please explain why the engine died on me and why the battery was flat. What am I doing wrong?
Thanks.. and don't hold back on the advise.

This is the diesel antigel/winterizer my kubota dealer sold me. I put some in a few weeks ago. Starts have been slow but no issues otherwise. BTW, also in NY state, Catskills region.

http://powerservice.com/psp_product/diesel-fuel-supplement-cetane-boost/

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

 

[Rdrett]

This is not my video but did you check and see if your fuel was gelled?
https://youtu.be/gBBrj8LfF8c

 

[Dave_eng]

This is the diesel antigel/winterizer my kubota dealer sold me. I put some in a few weeks ago. Starts have been slow but no issues otherwise. BTW, also in NY state, Catskills region.

http://powerservice.com/psp_product/diesel-fuel-supplement-cetane-boost/

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

How about the history of the diesel you added the power service to.
Was it fuel bought in warmer weather?

There have been many tractor owners on this forum who have experienced gelled up fuel. Some swear by power service. Others claim it make the most modern diesels with emission system regen much more often.

My advice is to get the tractor somewhere warm and let it sit overnight. Then drain all fuel, buy new diesel from a large volume truck stop and add the Power Service to that new fuel on the first try at getting the machine going.

If you cannot get the tractor inside, some owners have built a tarp enclosure and add heat (carefully) to allow the fluid gell to go away. Then drain etc as stated above.

You have not done any damage.

Since this is a brand new machine, you should be making its low/weak battery and no start their problem.

Dave

 

[alleyyooper]

I have a L3301 gear tractor delivered in Oct.. It has started except one morning when it was 16below zero here. I will tell you that the CCA (550) of the battery that came in mine SUCKS. I also cycle my key at least twice per dealers advice before trying to start the tractor in this cold.

Stupid seat safety switch on mine was set for a 300 pound gorilla, I know this because i weight 255 pounds and couldn't even turn in the seat to check the load behind the tractor with out it quitting. That crap lasted two days before I was ready to do some thing about it.

With this fix I can check the load benind me, stand on the running borads for a better view ahead and behind even.

click to enlarge view.


After reading your post I am betting it is the seat saftey switch.
Another benifit of my mod is you can start the tractor and allow it to idle while you go set in the house and have a cup of coffee.

For nearly 100 years tractors didn't have seat safety switches.

Also if your a cititoit do now make this mod.

Al

 

[alleyyooper]

_8f here with a -21f wind chill. go to start my L3301(same engine as the L3901) cycle the key twice and it turns over and when I was about to think it would not start it does.

I let it set go in the house and change out my lite gloves for some heavy ones and change my stocking cap for a heavy Baclava that covers most of my face.

Go back out to the tractor and it has warmed a fair amount and the regen light is on and the power up light is flashing. Still I am not going to power it up till it warms more.

Go up front and scrape the snow from the turn around. Now the heat is in the middle of the gauge so I power it up to about 2800 RPM's Start gradeing up my 400 foot drive way and in front of my mail box. go to turn around and the trctor quit like I had turned the key off.

Cranked it a few times and nothing. So it sat about 15 minutes, I try again and it starts. I am sure it is a fuel problem as I have not added any thing to the fuel. I drive it back to the shop and I have a jug of fuel addtive supplement and added a pint to 3/4 tank of fuel. Go back up to thew front drive and get almost to the end of the 400 foot drive and it quit again so I say to hell with it and go get my snow blower and finish the drive way. then go back to the tractor and it starts. Get it back almost to the garage and it quit again and won't start.
Still sitting there. sunday we are going to have a warm up.


I think I am going to not only add a engine block heater come spring/summer I will look into a fuel filter heater like my cummins has.


Al

 

[MarkL]

Update: 3901: problem with cold start

Hi Everyone and thanks the responses.

So, here's what I've found:-
The diesel that is in the tank is from last summer. There's about a fifth or less of a tank left.
The fuel filter is gelled. I used a saucepan of hot water, immersed the filter and that de-gelled the filter.
I cycled the ignition key twice.. 2nd time the engine fired and died. Tried several times again - the engine would not fire.
The battery is flat now.

In summer time I added 'ocean spray' diesel supplement to 15 gallons of diesel fuel in canisters. I tried to pour these into the tank and it was flowing very slowly. So, I added some PS 911 to the canisters and will leave that inside the warm house for a bit.
A guy is coming around with a plow, once the access to the barn is cleared, I'll immerse the fuel filter in hot water for a min or 2, I'll jump start the engine and hopefully it will run on low revs. Then, I'll add the treated diesel to the tank.

Can't tell you how pissed I am with myself in not seeing the cold weather as an issue with diesels. I had an air-cooled JD gas mower with a front mounted snow blower - sure I treated the gasoline; now with a 26k Bota, you'd think I would know better! Talk about live and learn.

 

[JerryMT]

Re: Update: 3901: problem with cold start

Hi Everyone and thanks the responses.

So, here's what I've found:-
The diesel that is in the tank is from last summer. There's about a fifth or less of a tank left.
The fuel filter is gelled. I used a saucepan of hot water, immersed the filter and that de-gelled the filter.
I cycled the ignition key twice.. 2nd time the engine fired and died. Tried several times again - the engine would not fire.
The battery is flat now.

In summer time I added 'ocean spray' diesel supplement to 15 gallons of diesel fuel in canisters. I tried to pour these into the tank and it was flowing very slowly. So, I added some PS 911 to the canisters and will leave that inside the warm house for a bit.
A guy is coming around with a plow, once the access to the barn is cleared, I'll immerse the fuel filter in hot water for a min or 2, I'll jump start the engine and hopefully it will run on low revs. Then, I'll add the treated diesel to the tank.

Can't tell you how pissed I am with myself in not seeing the cold weather as an issue with diesels. I had an air-cooled JD gas mower with a front mounted snow blower - sure I treated the gasoline; now with a 26k Bota, you'd think I would know better! Talk about live and learn.

You're not the first person to have this happen.

Any time the temperature gets below freezing, you can get "jelling" and /or icing of condensed water. To determine which., Use a blow drier on the filter and then open the filter drain and catch the drainage in a suitable clear container. Look for water under the fuel. If there is none, then you most likely have wax precipitating out of the fuel.
To minimize water condensation, try to always keep the tank as full as possible. Use the drain and check the drainage for water. if you find some drain before every start until you don't find any more water. Then check ever 4-5 starts
Next time you get caught with summer fuel, add #1 diesel to the tank so you end up with a 50/50 mixture of #1/#2. Treat with a suitable winter treatment per label.
Always keep a spare fuel filter on hand and consider changing the fuel filter before winter.

 

[Thorny]

I like the idea of immersing the filter in hot water, but if the gelled fuel is also in the fuel lines then the filter won't be enough. If she won't start, maybe you can tow the tractor into a garage that's above freezing, or maybe drape a tarp over the tractor and run an electric heater underneath to heat the whole engine compartment and get those lines to free up.

 

[twomany]

I got the Hurlimann 435 out to blow some snow today.
It's been cold, and the coolant heater was barely enough to get things going. I had to blow hot air from a heat gun into the air cleaner to get the thing to fire off.

I was concerned about fuel jelling, so played the heat gun on the filter and lift pump a bit also.

After starting and a five minute warm up the tractor was backed out of the open shed and the pto engaged. After two heavy passses blowing snow over the bank, the engine lost power and died. It started right up however. but then died again after less then a minute. With lots of repeats of starting and dieing, it was obvious there was a fuel issue. I coaxed the rig back to the yard and splashed an ounce or two of Power Service into the nearly full fuel tank.
The engine started right off, and sounded good. But there were still power loss "episodes" where I needed to release the PTO clutch and let the engine come back. After about 10 minutes of this, Everything cleared , the engine ran smoothly, and lots of snow went over the bank and into the woods.

I'm sure there was fuel gelling, and it took a bit of running to get the Power Service (white bottle) to do it's thing.

If I didn't have to ski tomorrow when the temperature is supposed to be 30 instead of the high of 8 degrees we had today, I'm sure there would have been no issue.

Those additives really work. It's been cold here, but that is changing this week.

 

[vsport]

Having the same problem here in Indiana. Tractor runs daily and has its own shed. When temps are over 25-30 runs like a top. 18 degrees and even after an hour of idle to mid operating temp no soap. Runs, starts right up but the minute you push the hydrostat to go forward or backward it dies. New fuel...plus anti gel additive in the last week from a busy station. Seat switch operating just fine. New tractor bought over this last summer...all service performed. Really really frustrated as wife cannot get her barn clean....It needs to run and dont mind idling to warm for 20 minutes but an hour and still no run seems bad...worked fine yesterday temps in the 30s.

 

[Dchemphill1]

I have a L3901 HST and have had no problems through 108 Hrs. I use winter blend diesel and put a diesel treatment in the fuel to keep from gelling. I also have a block heater which runs for at least 2 hours before starting in cold weather. You should keep it on a battery tender when not using it....I pretty much do this from October through March...tractor fires up and works well. Used it yesterday with 12 degree F day.

I understand the need for the safety switch on the seat but being short I lean out to see how the bucket is angled and the tractor starts to die...pain in the butt. I suppose I could get bucket level gauge but money...money ....money.

 

[SidecarFlip]

Re: Update: 3901: problem with cold start

Hi Everyone and thanks the responses.

So, here's what I've found:-
The diesel that is in the tank is from last summer. There's about a fifth or less of a tank left.
The fuel filter is gelled. I used a saucepan of hot water, immersed the filter and that de-gelled the filter.
I cycled the ignition key twice.. 2nd time the engine fired and died. Tried several times again - the engine would not fire.
The battery is flat now.

In summer time I added 'ocean spray' diesel supplement to 15 gallons of diesel fuel in canisters. I tried to pour these into the tank and it was flowing very slowly. So, I added some PS 911 to the canisters and will leave that inside the warm house for a bit.
A guy is coming around with a plow, once the access to the barn is cleared, I'll immerse the fuel filter in hot water for a min or 2, I'll jump start the engine and hopefully it will run on low revs. Then, I'll add the treated diesel to the tank.

Can't tell you how pissed I am with myself in not seeing the cold weather as an issue with diesels. I had an air-cooled JD gas mower with a front mounted snow blower - sure I treated the gasoline; now with a 26k Bota, you'd think I would know better! Talk about live and learn.

Ocean spray.. Isn't that cranberry sauce? I think you mean 'Sea Foam'....lol

 

[SidecarFlip]

do you have treatment in your fuel? Sounds as if you have enough to run, but not enough to be under load or higher RPM's..... Might look at fuel filters too - may be gummed up with frozen moisture or algae.

add some water removal / algae-side in the fuel, as for the battery - cold days will suck the life out of a battery in a quick hurry - most use a battery tender to keep the battery in top tip shape.

I agree with the first part, one needs to add an ant-gel supplement to ULSD fuel today and it don't matter if it's 'on road' or 'off road red dyed' fuel, all the same stuff except off road is exempt from road tax (or should be at least).

Having said that I disagree on the battery. A flooded cell battery, properly charged, will retain that charge a long time so long as there is no parasitic drain. Why I have master disconnects on both my tractors to completely isolate the batteries. can leave my 105 sit all winter and in the spring, close the disconnect and she will start right up after sitting for 3 or 4 months in an unheated barn.

I have no idea about the newer Tier 4 units, if they have any parasitic drains (like the ECM) for instance but a master disconnect would insure the starting battery will start the tractor (so long as the battery is fully charged and in good shape). Neither of mine draw any amperage when shut down but I use a mechanical disconnect anyway. Just a little insurance so I know it will start when I need it (them) too.

I have never used a 'battery tender' and interestingly, I sell them. No need so long as the battery is in good shape, passes a load test and is fully charges (and isolated) when taken out of service.

Never had a fuel wax issue but then I tend to use additive and algaecide year around, not just in the winter.

The farm bulk tank's fuel is pre-treated by my fuel supplier plus I add Bio-Kleen algaecide to it.

 

[baronetm]

I like the idea of immersing the filter in hot water, but if the gelled fuel is also in the fuel lines then the filter won't be enough. If she won't start, maybe you can tow the tractor into a garage that's above freezing, or maybe drape a tarp over the tractor and run an electric heater underneath to heat the whole engine compartment and get those lines to free up.

Anyone please correct me if I'm wrong, my understanding is if you are fortunate enough to be able to thaw the paraffin wax build up in your fuel lines or filter with the fore mentioned hot water or PS 911 and get the vehicle running, you had better before the next freeze replace the filters with new ones. Why, once they have been clogged with wax they are more prone to repeat the waxing process at a higher temperature.

I have been unfortunate enough to have my truck gel and need to tarp it and run a salamander under it for 12 hours to thaw the lines even with a full container of PS 911 dumped into the tank and filling the fuel filter with 911. I have also had it gel and go into limp mode at 5 miles per hour even with PS White and 911 added to the tank and filters replaced. Not a pleasant experiences at 20 below zero F. and miles from home. I keep extra filters and 911 for insurance.

 

[D2Cat]

Hey Flip, here's a quote from a battery mfgr. "Whether extremely hot (over 100 degrees Fahrenheit) or cold (under 10 degrees Fahrenheit), temperatures can cause lead sulfate crystals to build-up. If the car is left in such conditions for too long, the sulfate buildup can damage long-term battery life. It may also take a long time for your battery to charge in these environments, especially if you only drive short distances."

Maybe you're more fortunate than others!

 

[troverman]

Just FYI...anti-gel additives are supposed to be added when the fuel temp is above freezing. Many people dump a lot of additive into a fuel tank that has a temp of zero degrees and wonder why "it's not working."

I do not use a battery tender. It was -10F here this morning. I don't see the use for them. If your battery is healthy, it will start. If it's not, a tender just disguises that fact and eventually you get in a jam.

Someone commented that "these 550CCA batteries suck." They really do not. An L3301 / 3901 tractor has a 3-cylinder engine with less than 2 liters of displacement. How big does the battery need to be? And running the glow plugs multiple cycles may make it easier for fuel to combust, but the glow plugs are by far the largest draw on the battery. The more you cycle them, the less amps you have to crank the engine over. The Tier IV tractors have automatic glow plug timers. You really shouldn't need to cycle them. If your tractor cranks over very slowly in cold weather, I would only run the glow cycle once unless it won't start the tractor. Otherwise, I'd check your oil viscosity. Many Kubota dealers seem to push very hard for 15w40 weight oil year round. Mine did. But Kubota recommends 10w30 or 15w40 oil. 15w40 only offers starting wear protection down to about 20F. When it's zero out or colder, you are greatly increasing wear at each startup until the engine warms some. But the real point is that the very thick 15w40 oil is hard for the engine to crank over in. This slows down your cranking and might make you think the battery is weak.

A block heater is nice, but not necessary.