L3650 Electrical Issue?

[RatherBFishin]

Hey, guys. Newbie here, so please forgive any ignorance that I show. My L3650 won’t start. It appears to be electrical. I see Vic’s advice about checking the basics. I “think” I have, but what am I missing? I bought a battery and put it on. The old was 10 years old! Heck, it had to bad right. I checked a fuse close to the starter. It was good. Are there other fuses? No corrosion on the battery clamps. How do I check grounds and starter leads? All the wires “appear” to be okay. I checked the safety switches, but I’m not sure I did it right. One safety switch is for the forward/reverse switch the other is for the PTO. I checked continuity by testing across the 2 little screws on top of the safety switches. Is that how it’s done? Oh, yeah. The symptoms. When I turn the key to the on position, all lights on the console come on and I hear a click (normal). Nothing happens when I try to start the tractor. What’s next?
Thanks for your help,
Rob

 

[joekimtkd]

It sounds like safety switchs matter. Clutch depressed, PTO dis-engaged, gear shift is in neutral, Sit on the seat and so on...

If you did all that starting procedure correct and still not turning starter motor... it could be your starter motor's solenoid trouble. Check voltage of starter motor's solenoid terminal when you put the key on to starting position.
also check the voltage of strarter motor terminal too.

I've seen a few tractor with solenoid gone bad...

Good luck.

Joe.

 

[RatherBFishin]

Thanks, Joe. I did all the safety things, so I'll check voltage tonight and let you know how it goes.

 

[pat331]

I had a similar experience with my L35 and was ready to rebuild the starter. Turned out it was the ground connection between the end of the ground cable and the tractor frame. After cleaning and reconnecting, it worked as it was supposed to. I've since added a second ground cable to another location on the frame. Good Luck!

 

[RatherBFishin]

Well, here's what I found. The cable that goes from the negative battery post to the frame of the tractor looks great. Is there any other ground to check?
For the voltage check, I have 12.15 volts going into the solenoid with the switch in the on position. It draws down slightly when I turn the switch to the start position. I'm not sure where the starter motor terminal is. It looks like the solenoid and the starter are made together. Do they come apart? Is there a way to test the solenoid or is that what I just did?
Thanks again for all of your advice.

 

[GWD]

I'm guessing "won't start" means won't turn over even if the starter is directly shorted to the battery.

My L3650 did the same thing until the battery was grounded straight to the engine. Then it worked great again.

Try it with a battery jumper cable before doing anything drastic. If it works then remove a minor bolt from the engine, get a long battery ground cable, and wire it directly.

 

[joekimtkd]

Well, here's what I found. The cable that goes from the negative battery post to the frame of the tractor looks great. Is there any other ground to check?
For the voltage check, I have 12.15 volts going into the solenoid with the switch in the on position. It draws down slightly when I turn the switch to the start position. I'm not sure where the starter motor terminal is. It looks like the solenoid and the starter are made together. Do they come apart? Is there a way to test the solenoid or is that what I just did?
Thanks again for all of your advice.

First of all, do the continuity test on the Negative ground wire. put one of lead to the post of battery on Negative. and the other lead to near around grounded negative wire. If it has no resistance it is good. if it does, your problem is right there.

After that test, put Negative lead from multi tester to engine block some where and put Positive lead from multi tester on Starter terminal and do the Voltage test. as you put key switch to starting position and read the voltage.

If you get good voltage there, BAD NEWS. your starter motor needs repair.
If you get low voltage or no voltage at all, it is your solenoid problem. (as we trust all that safety switch is in correct position.)

Solenoid has one small teminal which triggers solenoid coil to make main contacts to activated which supposed to get 12 volts with lighter gage of wire. and Two heavy gage wire for actual power supply for starter motor.
So check both side of teminal (Heavy gage wire teminals) for voltage test with starting position on Key switch.

If you get only one side gets 12 volts, your solenoid is gone bad.
If you get both side gets 12 volts and starter motor doesn't turn... your starter motor is gone bad. Maybe Brush need to be changed...

I just repaired my snow blade's hydraulic motor.
It didn't want to turn at all. so I disassemble the motor and found one of brush was ceased. so I had to clean it and lubricated it and it works charming now... and so as my snow blade's WING too... I'm happy boy now.

Good luck.
I hope nothing serious on your trouble.

Joe.

 

[RatherBFishin]

Hey, guys. Sorry for the delay in reporting in. Here is what I’ve found so far.
The solenoid and starter are good. I took them off and had them tested. Also, I can short the starter and get the tractor to start.
I tested continuity on the negative ground wire. It was good.
I don’t get any voltage going to the starter terminal (wire coming out of the fuse to the solenoid/starter) even when the switch is in the start position. Obviously that means the problem is somewhere before that.
The safety switches are in the correct position, but I still don’t trust that I know how to test for a bad safety switch.
What about the switch itself? I see 5 wires I tested voltage on them. Does this tell me anything?
Red – 12 volts (a little less than 10 volts when switch is in start position)
Black/Red Stripe – 12 volts (a little less than 10 volts when switch is in start position)
Red/White Stripe – 0 volts (a little less than 10 volts when switch is in start position)
There are 2 black wires with a white stripe. Both of them have 0 volts until switch is in start position. Both have a little less than 10 when in start position.
Thanks,
Rob

 

[joekimtkd]

The solenoid and starter are good. I took them off and had them tested. Also, I can short the starter and get the tractor to start.

Have you jump the wire from tractor's own battery? or was it from the other battery?

If it was from tractor's own battery, start to check every each safety switch.
Do the contunuity test on each safety switchs. Anything fails, that is the problem for you...
and let me know which safety switches you have found and tested.

And do one more test for solenoid, please.
Do the voltage test on solenoid. One side of terminal with heavy gage wire should have 12 volts all times. and the other side of terminal should get the 12 volts only when starting position with key switch.

Let me know, how you make out.

Good luck again.

Joe.

 

[bruceatlam]

I had a similar experience with my L35 and was ready to rebuild the starter. Turned out it was the ground connection between the end of the ground cable and the tractor frame. After cleaning and reconnecting, it worked as it was supposed to. I've since added a second ground cable to another location on the frame. Good Luck!

I'll second that ---------------

 

[RatherBFishin]

Joe, thanks for the guidance. Here’s some more info:

I jumped from the tractor’s own battery.

On the solenoid, the heavy gage wire shows 12 volts all the time. The other terminal (smaller gage wire) doesn’t show any voltage even when in the start position.

I found 2 safety switches. One for the forward/reverse lever. The other for the PTO. Both pass a continuity test. If there are others, my guess is that they have been by-passed (my granddaddy was the original owner). Before this trouble started, I have started the tractor while standing on the ground, so there isn’t an active switch on the seat or the clutch.

One thing I found tonight is a skinned place on one of the wires coming out of the safety switch for the forward/reverse lever. It isn’t touching anything, and the wire is not broken. It barely gets to the copper, but it is a spot. Is there a way to by-pass that switch to test that?

Rob

 

[RatherBFishin]

Hey, Vic, do I need to replace the cable end even if I get 12 volts at the solenoid?

 

[GWD]

The safety switches wouldn't allow a completed circuit through the solenoid so that probably is not a source of the problem.

Old battery cables can become corroded at any place along the length and may allow a 12V reading but not apply enough amps to drive the starter motor. In fact, with a good battery there may be as much as a 13.5V reading.

Try hooking up a battery jumper cable in place of the stock cables to see if that is the problem. Try grounding to different places - especially the starter frame or mounting bolt. Take the stock cables off of the posts when hooking up the jumper cable to eliminate the possibility that the post/fitting might be an issue.

The solenoid with 12V should engage the starter's gears with the flywheel and a noise should be heard. The starter could be taken off and the solenoid powered to view the thrusting of the starter gear. If there is no thrust then the solenoid is the problem. Be sure to use jumper cables for the test and have a good ground to the starter.

Just for fun, check the fuse box on the left side by the radiator for continuity through each fuse.

 

[joekimtkd]

Joe, thanks for the guidance. Here’s some more info:

I jumped from the tractor’s own battery.

On the solenoid, the heavy gage wire shows 12 volts all the time. The other terminal (smaller gage wire) doesn’t show any voltage even when in the start position.

I found 2 safety switches. One for the forward/reverse lever. The other for the PTO. Both pass a continuity test. If there are others, my guess is that they have been by-passed (my granddaddy was the original owner). Before this trouble started, I have started the tractor while standing on the ground, so there isn’t an active switch on the seat or the clutch.

One thing I found tonight is a skinned place on one of the wires coming out of the safety switch for the forward/reverse lever. It isn’t touching anything, and the wire is not broken. It barely gets to the copper, but it is a spot. Is there a way to by-pass that switch to test that?

Rob

Tractor's own battery to start~ That is good news.

Solenoid should have 3 terminals total. 2 terminals are heavy gage wire, and 1 terminal is smaller gage wire.
On 2 heavy gage terminal, One side should get 12 volts all times. and the other side should get 12 volts too when starting the tractor where feeding 12 volts to starter motor.

As you said, small gage wire don't get any 12 volts means, your triggering voltage is not supplying to solenoid.

Try one more test. jump wire to small gage terminal on solenoid with 12 volt positive wire and to see if starter motor is turning. If so, your safety switchs where jumped has trouble or ignition switch, fuses, terminals got corroded, wire broken some where or so on... and if it doesn't turning starter motor, your solenoid is actual trouble point. (VERY SIMPLE, HUH)

and GWD has good point too. My thought was same as GWD's.
Especially, when you said 12 volts drops down to 10 volts on starting position means not a good sign. Even though your starter motor is not turning.

Any how, you said before... you took solenoid and strater motor tested separately. so I took your word.

but this time you do that Solenoid jump test will narrowing down on your problem.

Let us know how it came out. then we could figure more later for you.

I just bought a Lincoln Mig-Pak 140 mig welder and just finished building welding cart made out of dolly...
Bring your tractor here, then I'll weld that solenoid terminal for you...ha ha ha

Good luck.

Joe.

 

[joekimtkd]

One thing I found tonight is a skinned place on one of the wires coming out of the safety switch for the forward/reverse lever. It isn’t touching anything, and the wire is not broken. It barely gets to the copper, but it is a spot. Is there a way to by-pass that switch to test that?

That might been a problem too...
While you starting the tractor and if that wire got damaged on the frame some where... it will blow the fuse....

Have you check the fuse for the ignition switch?

Or you could do voltage test on that damaged spot while turning key to starting position. and if you get 12 volts, fuse is good and up to that point is good too. only from that point to solenoid smaller gage terminal is the problem point...

If you get no voltage at all, it means fuse, ignition switch, safety switch, wire from the fuse to until that point has problem.

Any how, too early to say toooooooooo many problems.

So do those test and let us know........
You have to let your tractor going for whatever you using it for... Don't you?

Good luck.

Joe.

 

[RatherBFishin]

Ooops. I really screwed up now. I was testing the skinned place on the wire. I got 9.something volts while in start position on the key. This is where I out smarted myself. I tried jumping from the skinned place to the terminal where the small gage wire plugs into the solenoid and hitting the start switch. I was hoping that would tell me which direction to look for the problem. Click, click then nothing. Now the dash lights don’t come on and I can no longer start the tractor by jumping to the small terminal on the solenoid . Man, do I feel stupid.
All the fuses I can find are still good. All of the fuses in the box to the left of the fan are good. The fuse right next to the solenoid is good. Are there other fuses? Does anybody have a wiring diagram?
A little comic relief. Joe said that I have to get the tractor going for what I need it for. Joe, you’re right and I thought that I would share WHY I need to get it up and running. My dang yard is so muddy from all the rain that I need the tractor to pull my boat out of the basement. My 4-wheel drive truck gets stuck and I gotta fish! I was smart enough to pull the boat out while the ground was frozen a couple of days ago, so I can at least make the BASS Master Classic this weekend to follow the big boys.