L2250 Injectors

[LovesDauphins]

Hey guys - I'm learning this stuff, I promise. But I don't know what a dirty injector should or would look like - if that is the problem I am having.

I'll start off with the problem (trying to keep brief but give the info you all usually ask). Used my L2250 for several hours digging out neighbors driveways and the street we live on after the blizzard on January 23rd...it dumped around 30 inches and left drifts a couple feet high in some areas. The neighbors loved this tractor after we were dug out of course!

It got down to about 10 or 12 degrees that night. I had backed it up near the house where we park cars. I went to start it Sunday morning to dig myself out and it started the same way it usually does in cold weather. I walked away while it idled at sightly higher than idle speed. I started a snow blower up so that I could drop it off to my brother - ran that for about 4 minutes and returned to the tractor. Heard it knocking loud and saw that it was smoking white smoke. Did a flying leap to shut it off. Checked oil and it was low but not dry. Hadn't refueled - Same tank as the day before.

Changed the oil and filter since they were due. No real notables - one small pen tip sized shaving of metal and no sludge.

Replaced fuel filter and bled lines. No change...I did take a video of me cracking the lines open and you can hear the engine drop on the last two injectors but not the first. I pulled the injectors and I'll attach those pictures.

Wiped the injectors down and saw a number and date etched in the nozzle body: "N5 9-10"...I'm thinking that's when it went through a rebuild.. I know it underwent a rebuild at some point but whoever did, did not use genuine parts and jury rigged stuff. I have been slowly un-jury rigging things and replacing with the genuine parts.

So any ideas? I bit the bullet and payed the $160 for the WSM...been going down the list and eliminating things. I pray it isn't a catastrophic failure but I will deal with it if I have to. I am don't know who could even pressure test these injectors around my neck of the woods - I question if it is even worth and if I should just spring the $105 for each new injector.

Can you tell anything by the pictures or video? Speak slowly...I'm new at this Also how do you usually remove these things? Does everyone pony up and spend the money on the $100+ removal tool?

Link to injector lines and testing: https://youtu.be/B4aweI4mxWY

If the pictures are too big I can re-attach them in another fashion..I think

This is the injector that was in the problem cylinder...



This is the injector from #2- I believe the little bit of goo was from something I touched as I removing it:



This is a glow plug from the next cylinder:

 

[LovesDauphins]

Quick history also....I bought the tractor in March of last year. Owner stated he bought it 5 years ago at that time and had only used it about 6 times. He said it wasn't doing what he needed - he had only used it for clearing snow from his driveway. The poor guy didn't know what the PTO was when I asked him to engage it. Hour meter wasn't working and he said it never had = that was one of the first things I replaced.

It had obviously gone through some work - there was spray paint everywhere where someone repainted the tractor to make it look new. It appears the tractor sat outside in weather for an extended period of time. Every time I go to remove a bolt it is rusted shut ...or painted shut.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

First thing to do is remove an injector pipe (pick one that you know was working) and locate it off the side of the motor, connect up each injector to it outside the engine (you will need to bled the air out each time you change injectors).
Set the throttle to 1/2 or greater and crank it to test.
Be very careful, DO NOT, put any body parts in front if the injector, only use a piece of cardboard in front of the injector to see if you get a good spray pattern and no major drips.

If you get a good spray out of them all, you'll need to pull all the injection pipes off, set the throttle to full and watch the output ports of the injection pump, they should all fountain up about the same height.

If that's all good get a compression tester and check compression, you could also pull the valve cover and check valve clearance and operation.

Report back on what you find out.

 

[LovesDauphins]

Thanks for the help Wolfman!

So far:
1) Tested the injector off to the side. All three spray exactly the same...Only thing I noticed (now that I am re-reading) though was that I didn't set the throttle as you suggested (I just flat out forgot)...since the throttle was set at idle, does that mess with the results? If it does, I will retest. Video link is:
https://youtu.be/YKKj5OCHQgI

2) Went on to the injection pump fountain. They appear to pump to the same height. I did have this test done at full throttle. Video link is:
https://youtu.be/AWMXVtx9ttI

3) Here is where I ran into an issue. First cylinder pumped up to around 320psi. I went to test the next cylinder and as it pumped it up the gauge just dropped back. I'm not sure it isn't the gauge. I rechecked cylinder #1 where I got the 320psi reading and all it will do is flicker and not hold the reading. The gauge is the diesel compression checker from Harbor Freight...I really hope it didn't crap out after one test. I bought it last week. I really hope it's me doing something wrong...This is what it looked like on the second test where the gauge fails: https://youtu.be/k1xg86Pp8H8

Prior to the test the air intake manifold had been removed prior for ease of access, tester was screwed into the glow plug opening. I put the injector back in. Decompression lever was pulled. That's all that was needed right? I read other posts where the manual says to remove the muffler but it was mentioned that it is not necessary....now for the dumb question...non of the injector lines or pipes were attached to the injector = doesn't make a difference right?

4) I also removed the valve cover. I was reading how to check valve lash but from what I read I have to remove the small window to check the timing marks. I cannot find that little window - maybe because it is dark out. Is that something I won't see unless I remove the engine? And would I need to free something up to turn the flywheel?

--Church in the morning and then working the evening shift so Monday morning I will try to accuracy check the compression gauge or return it...My have time early before church though.

Thanks,
Brandon

 

[LovesDauphins]

Ran down to the Carriage House to look for that timing window....I bet it is behind the mount for the loader arm....Sound about right?

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

I had a problem with the bled off valve sicking on my pressure gauge and it looks like that's your problem too.
It will just give you measurements all over the place.
I popped mine a few times and it finally would seal.

As far as the valve adjustment goes, I don't bother with the timing marks, just watch the valves move, after they open roll it around till the close then a little past and measure.

I'm curious, as you say you pulled the "decompression lever", there isn't one on that model????
Do you mean the red knob on the right lower side?
If so that's the fuel stop lever, it cuts fuel not compression.

 

[LovesDauphins]

You are right (if you had a dime for every time you hear that, right? )...I have been reading these posts for years and thought I would catch myself before I called it a decompression knob...It is the "fuel stop lever" sir.

I ran to Harbor Freight after church and exchanged compression sets. Tried it this morning and the same dang thing happened again! She turned up to 320 and I am almost positive I heard a small pop and watched the needle in the gauge fall. So...I'm either going to get another set from Sears or elsewhere or exchange it again. 320 on the cylinder that's giving me a hard time though. Can you or anyone thing of something I'm doing wrong? I'm plugged in through the glow plug...no air escaping around it etc. No fuel lines to injector that is in the hole for the same cylinder as the tester/glow plug hole. Fuel stop lever is pulled back too.

I'll try to work on valve lash tomorrow morning before going to work again....after just wiggling them I'm betting they need to be adjusted.

 

[D2Cat]

My opinion of Harbor Freight diesel compression tester.....it's not worth the bargain price they let us pay!!!

I had no luck with it, just put all back in the red plastic case, and went on.

I guess what you could do is go get another on, but test a different cyl. then when it quits working again. Go get another on and check the third cyl.... Na, just don't use HF compression testers.

 

[LovesDauphins]

Shew...finally back....first day off in two weeks!

D2Cat you are right. I tried searching high and low for one at Sears and Autozone to name a few. I was about to order another tester but I tried to return the current tester to Harbor Freight and they told me there was a re-stocking fee. I got a replacement because I refused to pay a re-stock fee on a defective product...I figured this would be the last time. Thank God it worked well enough to give me some results:

1st cylinder = 340
2nd cylinder = 450
3rd cylinder = 450

Probably not the most accurate numbers but they confirm something is wrong on the 1st cylinder. I think the tester is reading 20psi too high...I got 320-330psi on the first test.

Next? I guess I should do the part where it says "pour a small amount of oil" into the cylinder...I've read that a cap full will work?

Wolfman - I did adjust the valves...one of them was at .58mm...Factory spec is .18mm-.22mm on this motor according to WSM...I wonder of that was the first valve job for this tractor.

Brandon

 

[lugbolt]

It's been my experience that if you put any oil in a cylinder, on a diesel it had better be no more than a drop or two.

Remember many years ago, I did a compression test on a G1800 for a customer who had just bought it. It was running poorly. Did a preliminary test, 340-350-345 which is low. My head tech-and boss at the time-told me to put a little oil down the cylinder and then re-test. So I did. Next test was 175-100-90. How? Boss said he couldn't figure it out? Anyway, customer left it with me and I pulled it apart to find 3 bent rods. Replaced all 3, plus rings and bearings (all on my dime) and then re-tested. This time 440-445-445, right where it should be, or real close.

Point is, I don't suggest putting any oil in the cylinders. If it's low, it's low and you'll need to figure out why.

 

[LovesDauphins]

Thanks Lugbolt...I've been reading and trying to figure how to do it. It says to do it in the WSM but I'm a little hesitant with all of the horror stories. I think I'll stand down for now and hold off.

 

[LovesDauphins]

Couple questions: I know this tractor is an L2250 but I thought it came with a D1402 engine? Stamp on engine says D1462-DI?



Are these injectors Kubota approved? The plates aren't wide enough to accept the bolt...



Am I onto a full tear down and rebuild??? I have done all of the suggestions thus far. I'm open to suggestions.It still starts right up but has the loud knocking and smoke! Thanks! Brandon

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

What does the cast in # behind the hydraulic pump say?

Where did you get that injector?

 

[LovesDauphins]

Looks like 1299cc ....if that is the right number?

Injectors were in it when I bought it...I haven't looked up that number yet - I just assume they don't belong.

Edit: Found them - cheap aftermarkets $18 a piece....I can understand why they replaced em cheap...not that it is right....looks three knew injectors for me are possible.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

WOW, the injector is not even bolted down, that could be a reason for the low compression.
Spray some light oil around the injector that has the low compression, look for leaks, without them bolted down I'm baffled as to how it even runs?
The injectors bolt down under the plate so you would pull the bolt and hold down plate all the way out then install the injector and then put the plate and the bolt over top, the bolt might be smaller under the plate (shouldered bolt)?

The L2250 came with a D1302-DI-A
And yes that's a 1302 cast block, 1299cc =1.3 liters= D1302.
Looks like someone has swapped out the head to a D1462, not sure if that's good or bad???

 

[LovesDauphins]

I think I am going to start calling this thing Franken-Bota....The things I have been uncovering are unreal. ha.

For the injectors: I was getting the slightest leak, I believe, from around the compression washers so yes leakage was possible. I did piece it all back together yesterday to start it and move it. It started right up and I was able to move it. However, I could see the diesel leaking around the compression seals more than they were before so I blame that on not replacing the carbon seals (maybe) and I really think the locator plates have something to do with it. EDIT: The bolt and smaller plates appear to hold the nozzle down, they just don't compress the nozzles into the hole as well as they should I assume. With a fair amount of twisting I can move the injector nozzle and body around.

I did swap the injectors and still have no change in engine running on the 1st cylinder but 2+3 bog down when the injector lines are cracked open. So something is up with that first cylinder.

The head swap - I'm curious about that and whether it is good or bad too. I'm trying to look everything up on them to see if they are the same but I don't know if they would be.

 

[LovesDauphins]

Ran an oil pressure test. Video of idle to throttle up is:
https://youtu.be/pkW0Oztecb0

Video of engine knocking and smoke: https://youtu.be/N_LYfBW3yPs

I'm thinking it's time to start tearing into the engine? Smoking eases as motor warms up but it still knocks. I guess that's about it for "non invasive tests". Oil pressure test didn't show much. Any other suggestions?

Thanks,
Brandon