Injector pump and timing point

[Yapman]

Hi guys, new member from Australia here. I have 2 x B7001 tractors and a B6000 and I’m just replacing the injector pump on a B7001 and all the numbers and even a google search show up as a D850 pump. I only really need the bottom slotted washer from the spring seat inside the pump but I thought i might as well just get another pump as I can’t get a washer anywhere in Aus but only over priced second hand pumps. Every wrecker here wanted $400 USD minimum for a pump, so I sourced one from over seas. Does anyone see reason why the D850 pump is different to the 750 as the only obvious sign is the locking spring that I can see via pictures and I also seem to get various item descriptions and tractor models via the web. One last thing that’s stumped me is I cant find the access hole to view the flywheel for timing of the injector pump and there seems to be no easily identifiable access cover. Would it possibly mean I have to remove the starter to view from inside the starter hole. Thanks in advance Jamie


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[MilkyWay]

Hi guys, new member from Australia here....

Welcome to the OTT Jamie! There are some real smart fellers here. Stay plugged in and you will see. Oh, also, for paid airfair, room and board, tour guide and a reasonable labor fee I would love to come to Australia to help you out with that little task!
Jim@MilkyWay

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

No need to do anything special for the timing except make sure use clean the Block, pump, and clean all the shims that are under the original pump (that sets the timing) and reuse them, that sets the pump timing, will work perfectly.

And yes the D750, D850, D950 all take the same pump.

 

[mickeyd]

Welcome to the OTT forum Jamie.

If The Wolfman says it, you can be sure that it is right!

Enjoy a great site.

 

[D2Cat]

Welcome to the OTT forum Jamie.

If The Wolfman says it, you can be sure that it is right!

Enjoy a great site.

Mickeyd, wait just a minute, I remember once when he was wrong.

 

[Yapman]

Excellent , thanks guys. I’ll replace the pump with the original shim that came out from under it and see how it goes. Thanks again


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[mickeyd]

Mickeyd, wait just a minute, I remember once when he was wrong.

Did he agree that he was wrong, or was it just the way that you remembered it?

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Did he agree that he was wrong, or was it just the way that you remembered it?

Actually it was twice... Once I agreed, the other time it was still a judgement call!

 

[mickeyd]

Mickeyd, wait just a minute, I remember once when he was wrong.

Judgement calls don't count and once out of the millions correct can be forgotten, so that was TACKY of you to bring it up.

 

[Yapman]

So now I need to check the injector pump for timing as a considerable knock is still present in the head area on startup along with white to grey smoke. The manual mentions timing marks on the flywheel but there is definitely no access hole or cover to see a timing mark through. Also with injector lines of the injector pump and turning over with decompression on I note that only two of the injector pump spouts are pulsing the same height of diesel where as 1 is 30 mm lower and not as strong. Can I shim that lower port separately to the other two so as I can have the same amount of pressure all over.


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[thepumpguysc]

Going back & reading this post from the beginning, you were looking for a shim/spring seat.. so you bought another pump, inorder to get the shim, correct?
That shim is for timing the rate of injection for each individ. cylinder..
Most of them have #'s on them.
Did you measure the shim you replaced?? you can usually get around that by putting in a similar one that's in the other cylinders..
WHY did you take the pump apart in the first place??
If you used your original pump, theres no need to check/reset the timing.
Your problem lays in 1 cylinder.. probably the cyl. you replaced the shim in??
Its also possible you got the gear segment off a tooth on the suspect cyl.??

 

[Yapman]

Ahh good questions. It was a collapsed collet that holds the little push rod in place that had failed. When I acquired this tractor it was near impossible to get running and once started had a viscous knock similar to a petrol engines piston to head knock or big end knock. We suspected it was an injector knock so we pulled of the lines to then remove and get the injectors serviced and whilst we had them off we wound over the engine and seen that one cylinder( front) was squirting near 350mm above the pump whilst the other two were 70mm above the pump. Being the Sheetmetal fabricator I am and with minimal injector pump knowledge I decided to have a look inside ( [emoji23]) and found that the little locating collet in that port ( pictured ) had been put in backwards at some stage and was fractured and collapsed. At this stage I thought a new little collet thing would be easy to acquire but it seems know one over here in Aus had one and even stationary engine ones didn’t measure up. I bit the bullet and got one from China ( Alibaba) and it arrived in 5 days so in it went. I bled up the system and low and behold the same scenario has accured but it now squirts differently on another cylinder. In the meantime my second tractor with great injectors had them removed and installed in the dodgy tractor in wait of the new pump. My other tractor runs real well again on the injectors that were swapped over so I’m thinking it’s a pump or timing issue. Hopefully that makes sense .

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[Yapman]

Also I note that you mentioned the tooth out on the pump gear and yes I imagine that’s now a problem as my off sider being the Sheetmetal worker as well couldn’t help but investigate for another collapsed collet. I presume the little gear in the base of the pump has to be lined up in a certain position as he asked me about them and and I had know idea and he just put pressure from his fingers on them and as the slide moved across they seemed to fall into place. Is there injector pump internal timing that I need to check as that would make sense in both pumps as the first one had obviously been apart and the second one well who knows but it certainly pumped higher on one cylinder when first installed


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[thepumpguysc]

Alrighty then.. good answers, thank you.. it makes perfect sense now..
That part IS JUST a spring seat.. no critical timing dimension..
The "segment" below the spring, the part with the teeth that engages the control rack, MUST be set in a certain position..
If you look closely at the gears, you'll see a "dot".. THAT DOT MUST line up w/ the slash mark on the control rack.. simple fix..
If you give me your pump #.. I'll look up the part # & you can just search it & buy JUST that $2.00 part.. instead of a $500.00 pump..
IF your pump doesn't have a nameplate.. there is a manuf. code stamped into the base of the pump housing.. "normally" just to the LEFT of the fuel inlet.. Its a 5 digit #.. with the 2nd digit being how many cylinders you have..
Let me know.. TPG

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Pictures in these situations help a lot.

I have seen pumps damaged like that, that also damage the fuel cam because the injection pump is not working properly.

If you have taken the pumps out of the case and have not timed it with the rack any thing can happen, from too much fuel or not enough.

The Engine timing marks on some of these early models can be pretty hard to see there will be a plug in the clutch housing, right side, around or under the hydraulic line.
But i wouldn't worry about that, as long as no one has been into the engine and and you've used the shims under the pump that were originally on it then the timing will be right.

 

[Yapman]

So tonight I decided to delv inside the injector pump and found the little gears in the base had one out of time. I could see a line in each one of the injector pump cylinders on the little cross shaft with teeth on it and also see a little indent on each gear that I presume corresponds with that line on the shaft. I could also see a little line on each of push rods which lined up within the gear inner and the gear notch. Several things I noticed was that each gear seemed to be half a tooth of in relation to the cross shaft line and also the shims ranged from 345-350-355 and were put in there original cylinder positioning. Once back together each cylinder seems to be pumping exactly the same at last and now it’s just a wait on new glow plugs and then time to see how it goes. I’m thinking if all gears are in exactly the same position in relation to the cross shaft lines and it’s a tooth out, then a gasket/shim needs to be added or subtracted to allow for that tooth out.


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[North Idaho Wolfman]

I’m thinking if all gears are in exactly the same position in relation to the cross shaft lines and it’s a tooth out, then a gasket/shim needs to be added or subtracted to allow for that tooth out.


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Nope that still has nothing to do with timing or shims under the pump,that has to do with how much fuel get sent to the injectors.
So if one was out of time it would either get less fuel than the others or more fuel at any given point in the throttle rotation.

The 345-350-355 shims in each of the individual pump cylinders makes up for the spring height difference between the springs, helps the spring rates of each pump balance.

 

[Yapman]

Hahaha yep I’ve now realised that, but one good thing is they are all the same. I have an old tractor guy coming in to have a look as it is still pluming white smoke while trying to start and will only chug and not actually run. I found a drain looking plug under the bell housing but it only gives a view of where the pressure plate bolts to the flywheel. No timing marks at all so we plan on doing the old way via the rockers and finding TDC. Possibly the rockers are up the poo as well as it had a head replaced not long before I acquired it so along with the gear timing there could be a valve adjustment out as well. Stay tuned [emoji86][emoji86][emoji86][emoji23] thanks for the replies so far though hey [emoji106]


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