I wonder about new Kubota tractors...

[SidecarFlip]

I wonder if the newer Tier 4 final units will hold their resale value as well as the older pre 4 tractors are?

I know that across all brands, pre 4 tractors are in high demand.

When the dust finally settles and manufacturers get the 'bugs' ironed out, will the post 4 units hold their resale value like the pre 4 units are now?

I believe people are really dismayed with the complexity and failure rate of the post 4 units, not just Kubota either, but all of them which is the driving force behind the high resale value of pre 4 units, I think at least.

I read comments about Kioti, Deere, FNH and every other brand, all stemming from failed emissions components.

 

[SDT]

I wonder if the newer Tier 4 final units will hold their resale value as well as the older pre 4 tractors are?

I know that across all brands, pre 4 tractors are in high demand.

When the dust finally settles and manufacturers get the 'bugs' ironed out, will the post 4 units hold their resale value like the pre 4 units are now?

I believe people are really dismayed with the complexity and failure rate of the post 4 units, not just Kubota either, but all of them which is the driving force behind the high resale value of pre 4 units, I think at least.

I read comments about Kioti, Deere, FNH and every other brand, all stemming from failed emissions components.

My expectation is that eventually the TIER IV nonsense will be rolled back but it will not happen immediately.

When it does happen all TIER IV machines will become essentially worthless unless/until cost effective delete packages become available.

SDT

 

[NHSleddog]

Fixing them in the future will be a problem as well. I am not talking about the fancy muffler, but the electronics and brain that make it all go.

30 years from now, you know you can fix most mechanical things, but ECU's proprietary sensors etc. are not easily reproduced. What the heck am I talking about 30 years?


moderator edited.. too political..... this is not an OFF TOPIC forum

 

[SidecarFlip]

My expectation is that eventually the TIER IV nonsense will be rolled back but it will not happen immediately.

When it does happen all TIER IV machines will become essentially worthless unless/until cost effective delete packages become available.

SDT

I have a suspicion you are right, much to the dismay of those that have them. Kubota and others have made it basically impossible to just delete problematic components because elimination of one adversely impacts the entire system and of course that impact usually results in a no start or reduced output scenario.

What is also interesting (at least with Kubota as I'm not privy to other tractor's is the finite life of the DPF element and probably associated sensors too). With a lifespan of 2500 regens, someone along the line will have to stand good for a new element or at least a cleaning (if it can be cleaned) and that is around 500 bucks to clean and in the excess of a grand to replace.

While it may not be the first owner because most of the smaller units get sold / traded long before that regen interval is reached but someone down the line will be on the hook for it. None of it is good for resale value.

 

[SidecarFlip]

My expectation is that eventually the TIER IV nonsense will be rolled back but it will not happen immediately.

When it does happen all TIER IV machines will become essentially worthless unless/until cost effective delete packages become available.

SDT

Could you imagine Kubota (and other builders) being on the hook for buying back all the non operating post 4 units. That is scary but could happen as faith in a 'new' product is reduced by the 'old' version being troublesome. Kubota (and others build their reputation and sales on reliability). Unreliable or fixable at a huge cost impacts further sales.

Kind of like the '3350' or whatever the model is issue with the reformer (a bad choice for Kubota) and those owners are highly unlikely to buy orange again. I can relate. Who wants an expensive rock.

 

[Nicfin36]

My expectation is that eventually the TIER IV nonsense will be rolled back but it will not happen immediately.

In a logical world, that would be the case. But, if there is one thing I know about government, they ain't logical. Kubota and others may come up with different systems and there may be some different EPA approved ways of doing things, but the Tier IV rules will stay. (I so hope I'm wrong.) I work for government (state) and I have been part of rule changes and I have basically begged the powers that be to not make certain rules changes due to the consequences that I KNOW will happen. What do they do, adopt them anyway, then comment later how there are some issues with the rule changes. Government is a weird entity, and it is rarely about doing anything with common sense.

I bought my L2501 just because I did not want the potential for DPF problems down the road. I would have jumped all over a L3901 if it did not have the DPF. I was totally ignorant of the Tier IV rules until I started tractor shopping. I came so close to buying a L3940 years ago. Oh, how I wished I did, but my career/finances was a little bit in question at the time.

I also hoped Trump's administration might help in rolling the rules back, and I actually did a bit of searching on that. But, as I already know, that wasn't going to happen, at least not anytime soon.

I would like to know how many people like me steered away from a bigger machine just because of the DPF systems. I bet quite a few.

 

[NHSleddog]

...I would like to know how many people like me steered away from a bigger machine just because of the DPF systems. I bet quite a few.

I bought a B2650 instead of the 3350 for the same reason. So Kubota didn't lose the sale but they could have picked up a few grand more, I was looking for a 30HP machine.

Based on all the problems they have had with the service history on the 33's maybe they were better off selling me the 2650?

 

[SDT]

Fixing them in the future will be a problem as well. I am not talking about the fancy muffler, but the electronics and brain that make it all go.

30 years from now, you know you can fix most mechanical things, but ECU's proprietary sensors etc. are not easily reproduced. What the heck am I talking about 30 years? That bartender in NY said we will all be gone in 12 years.

Love it, Sleddog!

SDT

 

[Bulldog]

Buddy of mine has been looking for a 120-150hp tractor for over a year now. Lots of 2-3 yr old machines on the market at a good deal but he's scared of them with good reason IMO.

It's bad that 40 yr old tractors are about the same price as a 3 or 4yr old is. I don't know what farmers are going to do. Hardly any of us can afford to buy a new one that size now days and for sure can't afford to replace it every time the warranty runs out. I don't know what the answer for this problem is but I bet you won't see many modern tractors running in 10 years, much less 40.

 

[bucktail]

The shine might be wearing off of common rail as well. I was talking to the guy who rents from my parents. He had been having issues with his combine that required a lot of diesel to be drained. He asked them what they did with it and the mechanic said that he took it home and burned it in his 4020. A 50+ year old diesel with a often maligned Russa Master rotary injection pump burns it without missing a beat.

 

[SidecarFlip]

Well, Bulldog and I both have large frame Kubota's, actually the largest PTO horsepower tractors that Kubota built that are totally emissions free and neither of them are going anywhere, anytime soon. I felt very fortunate to stumble on a second one last spring and snapped it up too. Needed a bit of work but it's still a bargain compared to what is out there today.

If either Bulldog or myself replaced our tractors with new ones. not only would they have DPF but they would also have Urea injection pre treatment, yet another issue down the road and the new emissions compliant tractors run hot and heat kills an engine so I don't expect them to last nearly as long as the older non compliant engines did/are.

Today, you cannot find a pre emission high horsepower Kubota, they don't exist for sale and if they do, owners are keeping them, like Bulldog and myself.

 

[SidecarFlip]

The shine might be wearing off of common rail as well. I was talking to the guy who rents from my parents. He had been having issues with his combine that required a lot of diesel to be drained. He asked them what they did with it and the mechanic said that he took it home and burned it in his 4020. A 50+ year old diesel with a often maligned Russa Master rotary injection pump burns it without missing a beat.

Rosa Master injection pumps are very simple to service. Their big drawback is they don't inject at a high enough pressure, consequently, cold starts can be a real pizzer and timing can be an issue if the pump is removed for service. Why Kubota uses a rack style pump on the pre 4 engines. They can develop way more injection pressure so they atomize better and start easier. The pump on an older Kubota is not unlike the pump on a Caterpillar diesel.

 

[Magicman]

I bought "used" in September. One of my main requirements was that it was a Pre Tier 4 tractor. I also avoided a turbo although my sawmill engine is a turbo and the boost is phenomenal. For a tractor I only wanted it mechanical and with no frills.

 

[gkk2001]

In a logical world, that would be the case. But, if there is one thing I know about government, they ain't logical. Kubota and others may come up with different systems and there may be some different EPA approved ways of doing things, but the Tier IV rules will stay. (I so hope I'm wrong.) I work for government (state) and I have been part of rule changes and I have basically begged the powers that be to not make certain rules changes due to the consequences that I KNOW will happen. What do they do, adopt them anyway, then comment later how there are some issues with the rule changes. Government is a weird entity, and it is rarely about doing anything with common sense.

I bought my L2501 just because I did not want the potential for DPF problems down the road. I would have jumped all over a L3901 if it did not have the DPF. I was totally ignorant of the Tier IV rules until I started tractor shopping. I came so close to buying a L3940 years ago. Oh, how I wished I did, but my career/finances was a little bit in question at the time.

I also hoped Trump's administration might help in rolling the rules back, and I actually did a bit of searching on that. But, as I already know, that wasn't going to happen, at least not anytime soon.

I would like to know how many people like me steered away from a bigger machine just because of the DPF systems. I bet quite a few.

I heard your logic before, and I agree probably many opted for the smaller machine to avoid the DPF. But there are quite a few good used L3800s on the market. I bought the 3800 In 2013 to avoid tier 4 and am so glad I did in view of this discussion. I certainly could not foresee this future in detail but did sense much hassle with costs.

 

[gkk2001]

I bought "used" in September. One of my main requirements was that it was a Pre Tier 4 tractor. I also avoided a turbo although my sawmill engine is a turbo and the boost is phenomenal. For a tractor I only wanted it mechanical and with no frills.

We think alike. Sure a turbo adds much but it is another component to maintain and repair.

 

[chim]

We looked all over the place for most of 2018 for a (new or used) bigger tractor with A/C to replace the L3200. Came close to settling on a new Mahindra, but in December of 2018 I bought a clean L4240. Looked very well taken care of and had 977 hours on it. I'm very happy to have a Pre-Tier IV.

This past November, Wifey reminded me I promised to sell the L3200. I put on OTT, TBN, Craigslist and Facebook Marketplace. It sold in about 5 weeks. There were two buyers interested enough to buy it. One beat the other to the punch, and the guy who missed it told me he'd definitely take it if the first one backed out or couldn't come up with the money.

The L3200 was bought new in 2012. Calculating what I had in the tractor (except for my labor building the cab) it cost me around $230/year to own it.

 

[SidecarFlip]

When you get into the bigger power machines like I need, the turbo charger is always there. I'm always concerned with it because of 'coking' issues with the hot side bearings and I always idle mine a bit before shutdown to cool them off. So far (since 2004) no issues. The M9 I bought last spring with 3500 on the meter I was concerned about as well because I don't know how the owner really treated it but, it's in the shop right now for a valve adjustment and some other items and Dennis (the Kubota head tech tested it for boost pressure and it's all good so I would imagine it will be trouble free.

They do make turbo rebuild kits and in reality there isn't much inside to replace anyway. Besides, I like the sound of a turbo spooling up...lol

I guess what really fries my eggs about the post 4 engines is, the Government tells you you have to have it, no choice, but you get to deal with the issues, again, no choice. The only choice is a pre 4 engine... If you can find one.

As the population becomes aware of the pitfalls and built in cost of a post 4 motor, the pre 4 units are getting harder to find and thus hold their value, which works for me if I ever decide to sell them, which I won't.

I like to see those 'particulates' come out the exhaust stack when it's working hard. I was brought up with... If there is no smoke, there is no fire and no fire means no power. Might not hold true today, but removing the smoke entails some complex components that appear to be failure prone.

I do believe as the technology advances, the motors and emissions hardware will become less troublesome but I sure don't want to be the 'tester' of systems that fail at my expense.

Rudolph Diesel is probably wondering what the hell they did to his efficient motor.

 

[SidecarFlip]

We looked all over the place for most of 2018 for a (new or used) bigger tractor with A/C to replace the L3200. Came close to settling on a new Mahindra,

I've read some horror stories about Mahindra tractors. if, in fact, they are true or not, I have no idea because what you read from a disgruntled owner may not be, in fact, the whole story as you and I both know.

Guess my issue with them is to me at least, they look kind of crude and lack the fit and finish of a Kubota or a JD. Kind of a basic, no frills unit, not that that is all bad. Like I said, the bad press I read turned me off to them, besides, they don't offer the power I require at the PTO.

My other issue is the styling. Like FNH tractors, they look 'European' and I'm not a fan of that 'look'. I run FNH hay tools exclusively and my local dealer would like nothing better than to put me in a FNH tractor but again, don't like the looks and like Kubota (and the rest of the post 4 motors), I get to buy something that down the road, might become an issue and impact my wallet.

 

[RCW]

Our neighbor farmers were 3 brothers - milked about 80, plus feed for them and picked about 1,500 acres of shell corn.

They've parted ways for retirements, etc., but they are all hard working guys still.

While they're not ones to buy new, they had 2- Case 4490's 4WD, another articulating Oliver 4WD, and bought a Versatile 895 10 years ago.

When bought, most of those were 30+ years old and they probably got them for cheap $/HP. That's likely changed in the last 20 years.

They can fix anything they drive. They can make/fabricate some cool stuff...firewood box add-on for corn dryer, firewood processor, etc...they're ingenious..

Their cell phones make calls, nothing more. They are almost computer illiterate.

They are the perfect reason why pre-Tier IV, or even pre-computerized get the long dollar now. Why to heck would I want something I can't fix???

Recently a member posted a link about the popularity of pre-computerized tractors from the '80's....made me think of those 3 brothers...

I have a lot of respect for their abilities and business sense.

 

[quazz]

JD got is a lot of trouble recently for their new designs that could not be fixed in the field. Tractors were made simple to work on because it is far quicker and cheaper for a farmer to do the repairs vs hauling it to a dealer. Ease of maintenance is a response to customer needs but JD lost sight of this. Maybe they only saw the increased revenue for their dealers but whatever the reason they angered many of their loyal customers.