I wonder about new Kubota tractors...

troverman

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Bingo, Jerry.

The emissions nonsense adds thousands to the cost each regulated tractor, and for no significant benefit to anyone.

SDT
SDT, do you think it is nice to not smell diesel all day on an open station tractor? I mean, to me anyway, that is a benefit.

I won't chastise someone for preferring a mechanical or non-emissions diesel, but I think it is foolish to try to deny the benefits of a common-rail electronic diesel.

Granted, there is a difference between a common rail diesel and one that is common rail with emissions aftertreatment systems on it.
 

SidecarFlip

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Yes, the first electronic injectors were developed for efficiency and HP and they did the job well. Reduced the smoke in the DD 2-cycles very much. Unfortunately most people base all their diesel knowledge on the 1960's city buses with the mechanical DD 2-cycles and the 1980's GM diesel fiasco. The Cowboy's with the DD 12V71 with four turbos feeding two superchargers turning 3600 rpm didn't help either! All smoke aside; That was a beautiful song.
Know a guy up here in Michigan that bought a 12V71 from a hospital that was on a stationary gen set, stretched the frame on a conventional Pete, extended the hood, lowered the cab and sleeper and dropped in the 12V71 and yes it has 4 hairdryers and of course the Roots type superchargers and yes, it makes beautiful music and pulls like a locomotive too. Cannot cross a scale with it, too heavy on the front axle.

Ran with him once, me with my 3406 and him with his double breasted Yamaha. Hit the bottom of the Rouge bridge, he was grossing 165, 000, I was grossing 121,000. He went off and left me on the pull. But then I like 2 cycle Detroit's. Not fond of the DD 4 strokes at all, I worked on a bunch before I retired. No torque rise like a Cat.

First truck I owned was a 318 DD. Had so much power, you had to downshift to go over a cigarette butt.:eek:
 

SidecarFlip

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Detroit 2 strokes are really designed to run at rated RPM all day, not really good in a transport application. When they are running at rated RPM all day like in an excavator or a dragline they are excellent and they don't 'puke' all over either.
 

SDT

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SDT, do you think it is nice to not smell diesel all day on an open station tractor? I mean, to me anyway, that is a benefit.

I won't chastise someone for preferring a mechanical or non-emissions diesel, but I think it is foolish to try to deny the benefits of a common-rail electronic diesel.

Granted, there is a difference between a common rail diesel and one that is common rail with emissions aftertreatment systems on it.
Frankly, I am not willing to pay more than a dollar or two to avoid the smell of diesel exhaust, and I in no way denied the benefits of common rail injection.

The market will efficiently sort out the costs/benefits of just about anything if the gubmint stays out.

SDT
 

SidecarFlip

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Frankly, I am not willing to pay more than a dollar or two to avoid the smell of diesel exhaust, and I in no way denied the benefits of common rail injection.

The market will efficiently sort out the costs/benefits of just about anything if the gubmint stays out.

SDT
Key words there. Problem is, they cannot....:)

Myself, I like the smell of diesel exhaust. Hillbilly Incense. Like it a whole lot better than the smell of DEF treated diesel exhaust. Stuff is vile smelling. Makes your eyes water.
 

Bulldog

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I bet it was electronics related too.....:D:D
Believe it or not it was a hyd line. But it was a bad one that required the cab to be lifted off to fix.

My son said he like to have never got it on his truck. Tractor weighed 17k and that's a 10k rollback. Just a little over weight.
 

dlsmith

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Detroit 2 strokes are really designed to run at rated RPM all day, not really good in a transport application. When they are running at rated RPM all day like in an excavator or a dragline they are excellent and they don't 'puke' all over either.
When my father had a construction company, we had a Marion dragline with a 3-71 DD in it. We ran it a little over 15,000 hours before we had to overhaul it. I still ran good, but below 50°F you had to use ether to get it started.

We had a dozen International F200D tractor with 6-71s in them. I worked on them for a few years, and did everything. Two of us could do an inframe overhaul on one in a day, including grinding the valves. In fact I still had the tools to pull blowers apart and reseal them, injector timing sticks, tapered piston loader, piston pin retainer installer, valve and injector adjusting wrenches, and others until I sold them a year ago.

We got a few 8V-71s later and had a couple that broke the crowns of the two piece pistons just above the writ pins. That was interestng when you could pull the head and one of the pistons could be pushed down with your fingers.

I always set the governors to 2500 rpm, where they made better power.
 

Magicman

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"There are automobiles, etc. running/operating today that are 100+ years old. I wonder if the circuit boards that control today's automobiles, etc. will be available 100+ years from now?"


What makes you certain the ECU's that control today's vehicles will fail in 100 years? They are actually relatively simple, well armored, and have no moving parts.
Reread what I wrote. I plainly said I wonder if the circuit boards.....

I never said; that I was certain.....

If I am to be quoted, then I should be quoted correctly. I simply asked a question and was not being argumentative.
 

D2Cat

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Speaking of circuit boards that are simple and still don't last long... how about the circuit on a gas powered welder, the fast idle circuit. About 15 parts enclosed in a plastic box and I have them fail in 10-15 years or so without fail. Apparently the problem is bad enough some guys came up with a replacement that was about 1/2 price as Miller's.
 

quazz

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Every single product ever made has a life cycle and the internal combustion engine is in its late stages. In the not too distant future they will be obsolete. We'll keep a few around for certain things or for nostalgia like we do with horses perhaps but the writing is on the wall and there is nothing anyone can do about it.
 

quazz

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It isn't a concern at all to me, I would love it if the tech were advanced enough today. Some people like maintaining engines but I am not one of them. No more oil changes, fuel filters and additives, tearing apart carbs, exhaust issues etc sounds like heaven to me!
 

Magicman

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So I wonder where we will go from here? The Laws of Physics say that it takes a certain amount of energy to do a certain amount of work. Our "instant gratification" mentality says that we won't be content to sit and "charge up" so the energy/fuel source has to be continuous. It also has to be massive to replace the energy source that is presently being sucked up by our power hungry daily lives. The "instant gratification" also seems to be expected more by the younger generation that is the noisiest about living "clean and green".

Just thinking and wondering out loud. ??
 

NHSleddog

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So I wonder where we will go from here? ....
Just thinking and wondering out loud. ??
Eventually, in the end, I think quazz is right in that all forms of motion will be powered by electric. Not because it is environmentally friendly, but because it is the best. Electric can give you 100% torque at 0 RPM. It will get to the point where it is just stupid to drive a gas job. TCO will be worlds apart. EVENTUALLY.

If the crushed lithium comes about and actually does store 5 times the amount of current tech, the current tesla would be able to drive across the country on a single charge, think about that.

I am also sure if humans make it past the next 100 years on earth, those same "new" electric systems will be being replaced by something better and more efficient and not as toxic.

At the current pace, chances are we implode before that.
 

Magicman

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The Laws of Physics still dictate that the energy source has to match the energy use. Actually more because of the battery efficiency. Those batteries have to be recharged and the energy has to be supplied.
 

NHSleddog

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The Laws of Physics still dictate that the energy source has to match the energy use. Actually more because of the battery efficiency. Those batteries have to be recharged and the energy has to be supplied.
For sure. But that is easy to get to when you compare it to the efficiency of gas or diesel. There is a bunch of energy in a gallon of gas that isn't being used in the process.
 

troverman

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"There are automobiles, etc. running/operating today that are 100+ years old. I wonder if the circuit boards that control today's automobiles, etc. will be available 100+ years from now?"




Reread what I wrote. I plainly said I wonder if the circuit boards.....

I never said; that I was certain.....

If I am to be quoted, then I should be quoted correctly. I simply asked a question and was not being argumentative.
Sorry magicman, and I didn't think you were being argumentative. I did read your statement as a strong implication that modern electronics wouldn't last.

Every single product ever made has a life cycle and the internal combustion engine is in its late stages. In the not too distant future they will be obsolete. We'll keep a few around for certain things or for nostalgia like we do with horses perhaps but the writing is on the wall and there is nothing anyone can do about it.
This is not a very good argument. There are some things that really don't seem to have a life cycle...for instance, the wheel.

Many proponents of electrification often use your argument, seemingly in some attempt to create a self-fulfilling prophecy they hope will come true.

When it comes to vehicles, I don't see any advantage to electrification. Superlative horsepower and torque numbers are often published, followed by extremely low ranges and towing capacity, making all that power essentially useless.

The transition from horse drawn carriages to gasoline automobiles was different...because the gas automobile was real progress. You could go a lot further; the vehicle never got tired, etc. You could go faster. One gas engine could do the same work as many horses.

Looking at ICE to EV...those advantages don't exist. In fact, there are several key disadvantages. So when folks prattle on about how EV is the future...I guess they must mean some far and distant future where new batteries and more efficient motors are invented that can actually have long range even while working hard, and don't require an hour to recharge.
 

Magicman

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Sorry magicman, and I didn't think you were being argumentative. I did read your statement as a strong implication that modern electronics wouldn't last.
We are good and after re-reading, I probably over reacted. Just for the record, I'm not an expert in anything but my career was in electronics/power, but that was 25 years ago. Now my only interest is sawmilling and tree farming.
 

troverman

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We are good and after re-reading, I probably over reacted. Just for the record, I'm not an expert in anything but my career was in electronics/power, but that was 25 years ago. Now my only interest is sawmilling and tree farming.
No worries, all good. I am an IT manager and its great having a tractor to get away from the desk. That said, I've seen computers fail in 5 years. We also have an Acer beige box from 1994 that runs 24/7 for use operating a packaging machine from the same era. It came with Windows 3.1 and currently runs Windows 95. I think it all comes down to the quality of the components. I have dismantled a couple of automotive ECUs and I think the component quality is high. Maybe it varies from manufacturer to manufacturer; this unit was a Bosch from an Audi.