Help run away tractor

tractorslave

Member

Equipment
B 6200 hst 4wd
Apr 16, 2012
54
1
8
Western MASS
No my tractor is not on the milk carton, but you never know.

This forum has a great help to me in my efforts to fix this fine machine up.

What happened is: I got a clunker running after years of sitting.
Changed the fuel and filter
changed the air filter
changed the glow plugs

I bled it and no start
at this time compression release lever was sticky. it has since started working well.
Took off the air intake hose, bled it again, and whammo it started.

It went to full RPM and neither the kill switch nor the throttle lever could slow it down .
So I choked off the air and it stopped.

Attached is a picture of the throttle arm with the springs intact.

Any help you may have for me is greatly appreciated.
 

Attachments

Stumpy

New member

Equipment
L175
Dec 1, 2011
848
3
0
NE Ohio
By kill switch are you referring to the compression release and by compression release you're referring to the assembly on the valve cover correct? Cause if the compression release won't stop it your tractor is possessed! Also by full RPM do you mean it ran up to the full rated RPM and sat there til you could smother it or did the motor accelerate past rated RPM?
 

tractorslave

Member

Equipment
B 6200 hst 4wd
Apr 16, 2012
54
1
8
Western MASS
photo 2.jpg

Hi Matt,
I was too freaked by the black smoke and the fact that my car was hooked up to it by jumpers.
I failed to look at the Tachometer.
The RPMs seemed quite high by the sound, but I have never heard this badboy run normal, so ........ I have no idea really.

I have attached a pic of the thing I thought was kill switch.
I was aware that the valve cover gizmo was compression release for cold weather starting?
To stop it:
When I covered the intake horn on the air cleaner it went to an idle, but the smoke was thick.
I had to manually pinch the intake hose shut to stop it.
My local dealer was pointing me in the direction of the governor.

Any thoughts will be greatly appreciated.
Dave
 

Stumpy

New member

Equipment
L175
Dec 1, 2011
848
3
0
NE Ohio
There are three main ways to stop a running diesel engine (well four if you count stalling it with a load). You can starve it of air or fuel or you can reduce the compression ratio til insufficient heat is available to ignite the fuel air mixture. Also diesels can run so lean it wouldn't surprise me if starving it of air actually works by reducing the effective compression ratio instead of bringing the mixture below the lower flammability limit.

That mechanism in your picture does exactly what you think it does, it shuts off the injection pump by forcing the fuel rack on the pump to the full closed (no injection) position. Under most circumstances this will stop the engine. The compression release will also shut off the motor as well as aid starting. It does this by holding the exhaust valves partially open to reduce the compression ratio. My L175 doesn't have a fuel shut off (though one may be implemented in the governor control, I'm not sure) and to shut it off the machine is set to idle and the compression release pulled.

Now it definitely sounds like you had a run away diesel. It would have sounded unusually high similar to this this though that is a two stroke engine. A run away diesel can happen two ways. First if for some reason the governor mechanism malfunctions and it no longer closes the injection rack in response to increased RPM. There are a few possibilities including a frozen fuel rack or a jammed set of governor weights. The second is when an alternative source of fuel is introduced to the engine. It's somewhat difficult to do on these engines but for example if a motor with an oil cooled turbo blows a seal oil can be mixed into the intake stream and suddenly the motor has it's own fuel supply independent of injectors and thus the governor system.

In either case the engine spins up til friction counters the power output of the engine which is usually well beyond what the motor was designed to handle. A lot of things are being over stressed at those speeds and eventually something will fail (crankshaft separation, thrown connecting rod, ect) and the motor will stop with a lovely crashing sound. Shutting off the injectors will work in the first case but not the second. The tired and true method that works for either is to choke off it's air supply thereby preventing combustion like you did. A compression release should also work provided it can open the exhaust valves sufficiently.

In your machine I'd think the fuel shutoff would have stopped injection entirely regardless of a malfunctioning governor but it's possible the mechanism is damaged or the rack is frozen and the shutoff wasn't able to move the rack. From what I know of the D series engines the only way to get engine oil in the combustion chamber is a leaking head gasket, cracked rings, or leaking intake valve seals. Of the three I'd only give credence to the intake valve guides. If the head gasket or rings were that badly damaged I have my doubts it could generate enough compression to run. Oil being blown in the intakes would do the trick though.

So in your shoes I'd remove that plate marked STOP and if necessary the entire pump and see if the rack moves freely. I'd also take off the intake manifold and inspect the pockets and stems for oil.
 

tractorslave

Member

Equipment
B 6200 hst 4wd
Apr 16, 2012
54
1
8
Western MASS
Matt,
Thanks for such a comprehensive reply.
I am pleased with myself for understanding at least 2/3 of it.
My son's girlfriend is a diesel tech and they are visiting later today. I will print this and have a go at it with them.

PS Is it possible (maybe with air bleeder cock open) to have fuel get to the injectors through the return lines? Or is there a check valve or something?
I was thinking; then the fuel rail stop mechanism would be bypassed by the return lines.
I don't think I was burning crank case oil. At least I really hope not.

Thanks again
Dave
 

kuboman

Member
Dec 6, 2009
725
6
16
Canada
Another possibility is it was burning crankcase oil, although not as likely as there being something stuck in the IP.
 

Stumpy

New member

Equipment
L175
Dec 1, 2011
848
3
0
NE Ohio
Your son is a lucky man :D

No they don't work that way. As the needle in the injector opens a little fuel is diverted into a separate part of the injectors for cooling and this is what's returned to the tank. Since the only time the port is open is when there's high pressure fuel in it you can't get back flow and even if you could it wouldn't make much difference. Only so much fuel can be moved through the nozzle in a given period.

I don't see how the rack shutoff could be bypassed by the return lines but I may not be understanding what you mean.

EDIT: Just to be clear in this setup the injector is just a glorified nozzle. Each cylinder has it's own piston in the pump and these pistons are driven by a cam. The pressure in the lines is zero til the a piston forces more fuel up the line and when the pressure is high enough the injector needle opens. Injection always starts at the same crank angle in most of these but when the injection stops is what the fuel rack controls.
 
Last edited:

gurn

New member

Equipment
Kubota L175
Apr 15, 2011
239
14
0
Nashville,Tn
"son's girlfriend is a diesel tech " Wow, you dont hear that every day. Don't let her get away.
 

Orange Tractors

Member

Equipment
L175 w/Woods L59, Allis Chalmers WD
Jul 19, 2009
323
4
18
Butler, MO
My L175 doesn't have a fuel shut off (though one may be implemented in the governor control, I'm not sure) and to shut it off the machine is set to idle and the compression release pulled.
Matt,

There is (or should be) a small lever about six inches long on the right side of the transmission taht will shut off the tractor. It is located above the brake lock lever.

I think it is the part labled "link accel" in the hand accel section of my .pdf parts manual, but the picture isn't very clear.

You have to shut the hand trottle completely to get it to work; but you can kill the engine without using the compression release by lifting on it. I know because my comp. release is broken, I have to replace the inner cable.

Robert
 

Stumpy

New member

Equipment
L175
Dec 1, 2011
848
3
0
NE Ohio
Hummmm. I see the part you mean in the diagram. Guess I missed that while I still had it together. The guy I bought it from killed it with the compression release both times I saw him shut it off. Thanks!
 

tractorslave

Member

Equipment
B 6200 hst 4wd
Apr 16, 2012
54
1
8
Western MASS
Hi Robert.
Could you send a picture of the gizmo in question.
My B6200 has compression release pull knob on the left and fuel cut off knob on the right.
see attached pic, (I hope)

Dave photo 3.jpg
 

Stumpy

New member

Equipment
L175
Dec 1, 2011
848
3
0
NE Ohio
We got side tracked. We were talking about the L175 which apparently has a little lever with the same functionality as your fuel cut off knob. How did it go yesterday?
 

MagKarl

New member

Equipment
L245DT
Aug 2, 2010
663
0
0
Olympia, WA
Dumb question time, is there any chance this unit has a "backwards" hand throttle? Have you closely studied what on the pump moves and what direction when the hand throttle is moved and when the foot pedal is actuated? My manual mentions hand throttles that accelerate when pulled, and some that accellerate when pushed, depending on serial number/date break.
 

B7100

New member

Equipment
B7100,B7100 with Backhoe and FEL, Goldoni Quad 20
Feb 11, 2010
422
2
0
Wales
Dumb question time, is there any chance this unit has a "backwards" hand throttle? Have you closely studied what on the pump moves and what direction when the hand throttle is moved and when the foot pedal is actuated? My manual mentions hand throttles that accelerate when pulled, and some that accellerate when pushed, depending on serial number/date break.

Funny you should say that,I have two B7100's ,the older one its pull back to go faster and the newer one its push forward,nearly caused a pants change a time or two :D
dave
 

tractorslave

Member

Equipment
B 6200 hst 4wd
Apr 16, 2012
54
1
8
Western MASS
OK,
I did what Matt "Stumpy" said and this thing is running great.
I am utterly amazed at the generosity and helpfulness of this forum and its members!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I took of the cover off that said "stop" and my slider thingy for the fuel cut off was stuck, the slider thingy for throttle was also stuck @full RPM.
So in hind sigh I had a photo(19).jpg deisel at full RPM without a means to stop it, not a "run away diesel".

I am sure I did damage to those springs, as one of you mentioned, so they will be replaced too.
Attached is a picture of my running B6200 without the side and Hydro covers.

Thanks very much to all.
Dave
 

Stumpy

New member

Equipment
L175
Dec 1, 2011
848
3
0
NE Ohio
I'd argue it's still a run away diesel as it was running well above it's rated RPM out of control but that's just semantics. Regardless you are most welcome :)