Front PTO for M4500... how good is your memory?

[JohnDB]

I wuz looking at some pics in the WSM and noticed that some of them had "F-PTO" showing on the front end and dotted lines indicating where a cutout for the PTO would be. See pix below. Does anyone know anything about the front PTO for these tractors - was it ever offered as an option, if offered as a kit, what was in the kit, how did it connect to the crankshaft, how was the external end of the shaft supported, was there a clutch etc etc?

There's no other info in the operating, parts, or workshop manual about them (at least the versions I have), or in the S2600-B engine manual.

Any advice/hazy recollections gratefully received!

 

[rbargeron]

For the M4500 there was a front loader labeled M1820. An external pump was coupled to the front of the engine - no clutch or gearing. The partslist website shows it - copy of the pdf attached. It uses two 2-row chain couplings but the drawings of the pump drive don't show much detail.

Edit: I'd try calling these people about the crank adapter, likely the tough part to duplicate. Dick B

 

[JohnDB]

You are legend! Thanks for that. I will check it out!

Update: H'mmm, needs a US VPN - will sort that out. Thanks for the help, it's just what I needed to get going.

If anyone else has any additional info please don't hesitate...

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

What are you looking to run off of it?

 

[JohnDB]

I've been looking for extra pump capacity... currently mine has a locally built loader operated by the existing hydraulics (valves) beside the [del]PTO[/del] 3 pt hitch controls). It has double acting crowd, single acting lift arms. I'm contemplating adding an extra circuit and convert to double acting lift arms (one cylinder is damaged) and an extra circuit or 2 to the rear for top link and any other equipment.

So now I'm wondering if I should run the existing loader off a front mounted pump, and that frees up the valves at the rear to do the job they were intended to do. I also need to check out the drive on the crankshaft - it just feels like a big 36mm nut, but maybe there's a spline in there like I think you mentioned in a previous post.

Unfortunately I have to head off to work now, so will look forward to anything you or others can add when I get home tonight.

 

[Kubota Newbie]

Yeah, When I bought my M4500 it had a Bomford mid-mount flail mower on it and the pump was attached to the front of the engine. It was direct drive as noted. I run my loader off the factory pump but I have an aux double spool control valve plumbed into the supply that goes back the side of the tractor to the original hydraulic controls and 3-point. That way I still have two pairs of remotes that I can use as needed (handy when renting a no-till drill that also has markers). The only down side is that the factory pump doesn't have much capacity. Loader movement is a little slower than I'd really like but it's better than a pitch fork.

 

[JohnDB]

I run my loader off the factory pump but I have an aux double spool control valve plumbed into the supply that goes back the side of the tractor to the original hydraulic controls and 3-point.

Kubota Newbie - checking my understanding here - does this mean that your aux double spool control valve is fed off the factory pump on the side of the engine? Presumably means you use that pump to either work the loader, or work other attachments. Thank you.

 

[JohnDB]

rbargeron, thanks for the pdf of the parts list. Looks like the drive adapter bolts to the crank pulley.

BTW I got an email alert saying this was from you too:
In those years front loaders, when offered, were a US-made dealer-installed option. For quicker loader motion, an external pump was used, coupled to the front of the engine - no clutch or gearing. Other implements may have been designed to drive from the front, but I've only ever seen pumps. Dick B

Not sure why it wasn't in this thread, and every contribution helps me get a clearer picture all the time.

 

[rbargeron]

I had posted that part but later edited it out - I didn't yet know whether you were thinking about a pump or something else. I think a check-off in options gets posters an email when somebody responds. DB

 

[JohnDB]

I should have thought of that
I found some photos of loader-equipped M4500s but it's not clear about the front mount arrangement for the pump - do you know whether the rectangular front counterweight and the heavy cast wraparound "front bumper" were left in place or were they removed to mount the pump?

 

[rbargeron]

Haven't seen one up close so I dunno. The weight loop likely goes away. Google pics show several different loaders on M4500 tractprs. One machine with M1820 loader appears to use the internal hydraulics (side of engine).

 

[JohnDB]

rbargeron I reckon you're right, that one must use the internal pump. I'd found the pic earlier and thought maybe someone had taken the front-mounted pump and reservoir off. Thanks for pointing it out.

 

[rbargeron]

Here's one with M1820 loader and front pump (and no weights). The pump looks to line up with the "F-pto" in your original pic.

 

[Kubota Newbie]

Kubota Newbie - checking my understanding here - does this mean that your aux double spool control valve is fed off the factory pump on the side of the engine? Presumably means you use that pump to either work the loader, or work other attachments. Thank you.

Yes, That's correct, factory pump runs 3-point, rear remotes, and loader. All are available all the time with no hooking/un-hooking (although loader valve has its own bypass, so you're not going to lift a rear implement at the exact same time you're operating the loader).

BTW, the wrap around front weight/bumper does not have to be removed to run a front aux pump on the M4500. The attachment isn't all that difficult, easy adaptor to fab. When mine was mounted it used a short shaft with u-joint yokes on each end.

 

[JohnDB]

rbargeron thanks for the extra photos, yes looks like the pump is mounted on the loader frame. HUGE hydraulic oil tank!

kubota newbie thanks too, sounds like a front pump is completely do-able.

I'll check out the mounting and think about whether there's a better way to hold the oil - investigate the capacity of the transmission. I don't want to mount a hyd tank where it impedes getting on/off - I like to be able to leap on/off either side.

I need to finish off the engine diagnostics (call me paranoid) before I invest any real money in this, having the info you guys provided will set me off for a quick launch when I get the green light.

 

[Kubota Newbie]

My pump was mounted to a bracket attached to the wrap-around weight.

 

[JohnDB]

With the pump being direct drive off the crank, did you think it made any difference to how easily the starter cranked the engine over? Did cranking speed improve noticeably without the pump?

 

[rbargeron]

Adding a pump has little effect on starting. The hydraulics are open-center (free-flowing when valves are at rest.)

If your engine cranks slow the cause is more likely battery, cables, connections, starter etc. Dick B

 

[Kubota Newbie]

Yeah, having the pump on mine made no difference. My M4500 cranks pretty well - WalMart Everstart 29DC (just fits height wise, have to be careful which way cable clamps are turned!)

 

[JohnDB]

Thanks guys. The crank pulley on mine has the 3 threaded holes for the drive, so it is all do-able Bonus discovery as a result of this discussion: to rotate the crank for leakdown testing I can cobble up a socket, extension and bar, in place of the front PTO shaft.