Front Hydraulic Cylinder retraction

[miro]

On my B5100, I have a front hydraulic cylinder that is connected to the valve underneath the seat, that switches it from back to the front. The cylinder lifts the front mounted snow blower.
It's OK to lift the snow blower, but it does not retract to lower the blower.

The only way I can get the snow blower to get back down, is to turn off the engine and wiggle the the valve lever, and it sort of inches back down.

Is there an adjustment somewhere that lets the fluid go back more easily so the blower would be lowered without turning off the engine?

miro

 

[ShaunRH]

If I'm reading that right, it sounds like someone connected a hydraulic cylinder to a diverter valve... I could be reading it wrong but it sure sounds like it.

The solution would be to interrupt the line to the cylinder with a true hydraulic valve. The diverter would sent the fluid to the valve and the valve would cycle the cylinder up and down. You'd also need to plumb the valve back to the tank return circuit. So, there's work to do there, and while it can be done by about anyone, I'd have someone familiar with hydraulics do it, usually a case of beer or other beverage can get a friend with the knowledge to help.

The diverter valve has no way of returning the fluid to the tank without the pump being off, which is why you have to turn off the engine.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Does the front cylinder have one or 2 hoses off of it?
Pictures of the setup/hookup would be great.

 

[miro]

There is one hose going to the cylinder from what I now understand to be the diverter valve.
The guy I bought this rig from, said all I'd have to do is to connect the hose to the diverter valve and the lift would work. Yup - it does , but it doesn't let the fluid flow back.
So, now that winter and a lot of snow have set in, here in northern Ontario, (and it's bloody cold too) , I will make do until next spring.

The plumbing of additional lines and finding a connection back to the transmission ( which I understand is the tank on this B5100 tractor) is a job for warmer weather than I have now.

It does bring up the question of - Why is there a diverter valve in the first place?

 

[miro]

I did a search on the B5100 and found better manuals.
In the operator's manual at the end of Section 4, there is reference to a Directional Control Valve.
and , - you guessed it - a plug of the return fluid.
So, yes, I need a control valve and an additional line from the front mounted hydraulic cylinder back to the return plug.

Except that my cylinder only has one hose going to it, so, I'll have to replace that cylinder with one that has ports on both ends..
It's that or I'll have to disassemble the existing cylinder which is mechanically fitted to the front end mount arrangement , and drill / tap a port onto the end without the port.

The first way is expensive for me and will take time to travel to get the replacement cylinder.
The second way is cheaper and I have all the tooling, needed - but I still would need to buy the control valve and the return hose.

I think i now understand the challenge and will have to decide - Gosh - how I HATE making decisions . . . .

miro

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

It's actually simpler than that, you don't have to change the front cylinder, you just need to install the right valve.
One direction it will push fluid to the ram and the other direction it will allow the fluid to flow from the ram back to the tank, it's the same way the three point works, only has pressure on the lift, all gravity on the down.
You could even set it up with the existing way it's done now by adding a couple simple parts and they would need to be high pressure.
You just need to tee off of the line going to the front cylinder and a good ball valve, then a barb fitting simple rubber heater hose, and a barb fitting to thread into the top of the transmission.
Close the ball valve move lever to lift blade, open ball valve to lower blade.
It will get you through the winter.
Then you can change it to a real spool valve in the spring.

Oh and no you can not just drill the back of the single action ram it would ruin it!
Just for giggles check the ram you should see a vent hole, that lets air in and out when the ram moves.

 

[miro]

Thank you for that suggestion.
Sounds simpler than I thought it might be - today's a good day - I've learned something important.
miro

 

[ShaunRH]

NIWolfman is correct. I was assuming it was a double acting cylinder, which it isn't, so his setup will work and I've seen similar stuff on other tractors.

If you want true powered hydraulics, you'll need a new double acting cylinder as well as spool valve if you want to 'power' it down with the valve. Otherwise the single acting cylinder and weight works fine.

If you take the item off, a set of quick disconnects for the new spool valve and hoses would be in order as well but then you could connect up other stuff out front there. Again, the quick fix is fairly easy but a final fix should involve someone comfortable with hydraulic knowledge and implementation. You might even get a hydraulic parts place willing to help if you buy the parts from them.

 

[kubotasam]

I am pretty sure the diverter valve can be used to control a single acting cylinder with just one hose going to it. Set the diverter so it controls the 3 point hitch. Then adjust the 3 point hitch drop rate valve so the 3 point drops fast. Now turn the diverter to control the front mounted blower. It should now drop at a faster rate.

 

[ShaunRH]

I am pretty sure the diverter valve can be used to control a single acting cylinder with just one hose going to it. Set the diverter so it controls the 3 point hitch. Then adjust the 3 point hitch drop rate valve so the 3 point drops fast. Now turn the diverter to control the front mounted blower. It should now drop at a faster rate.

Don't think that will work. The diverter stops the fluids cold from going to the rear controls. The check valves in the pump won't let it drop. By shutting down the pump and cycling the diverter, he's actually pressurizing the rear controls slightly with each cycle and then it releases into the tank. Enough cycles and the front cylinder sets back down. At least that's my understanding of what is happening here.

Wolfman's fix puts a T in the line between the diverter and the single action cylinder with the exit to the T having it's own valve and eventual return to the tank. To drop, just open the valve on the T and it dumps the pressure back to the tank, you can leave the diverter set to the rear controls (which you would have to do or the pump would be activating the pressure release all the time once raised)

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

I am pretty sure the diverter valve can be used to control a single acting cylinder with just one hose going to it. Set the diverter so it controls the 3 point hitch. Then adjust the 3 point hitch drop rate valve so the 3 point drops fast. Now turn the diverter to control the front mounted blower. It should now drop at a faster rate.

You might be on to something, that makes since that it could work that way.

 

[miro]

At the moment, all that I have on the front of the tractor is the sneau blower, so a one hose solution, with the weight of the blower doing the retracting is OK for me.
I've set up the skids on the blower so they leave about 1 1/2 to 2 in of snow - it's a gravel driveway about a 1/2 mile long with dips and bumps.
I've added a lower hose block heater and a battery maintainer to let me start the engine reliably.

miro

 

[Dieselbob]

Disregard, posted to wrong thread.

 

[miro]

I've followed up with a hydraulic parts place and they have tees, and pressure rated ball valves .
I think I've got the thing figured out, except the thread on the port where the fluid goes back into the transmission .

I've looked through the manuals and other documents, but none actually says that the thread in that port is.
It might be a 3/8 pipe thread , but could it be some darned metric thread.

Can anyone confirm what that thread is , because I want to avoid a very long drive if I get the wrong part. Fuel up here is still over $4 per gal.

Thanks,
miro

 

[miro]

If you look at the last posting on the first page of this thread,

http://www.orangetractortalks.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16727

you'll see 3 thumbnail pictures.

In the 3rd picture, you can see a round black plug to the left of the gearshift lever, although on my B5100, it's on the other side of the case (i.e. to the right of the gear shift lever) .

That's plug I'm looking to find the thread for.

miro

 

[kubotasam]

If you look at the last posting on the first page of this thread,

http://www.orangetractortalks.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16727

you'll see 3 thumbnail pictures.

In the 3rd picture, you can see a round black plug to the left of the gearshift lever, although on my B5100, it's on the other side of the case (i.e. to the right of the gear shift lever) .

That's plug I'm looking to find the thread for.

miro

On a B7100 it is a 1/2" npt thread. I assume it will be the same as yours. Did you try adjusting the 3 point drop rate and using the 3 point control lever instead of adding the extra valve.? You also might need to adjust or remove the feedback rod to make the origional 3 point control work.

 

[miro]

I have installed the parts as suggested with the tee and the ball valve and it works 100%
I tried it out and it even works while I'm moving.
But since I've installed the stuff, we haven't had that much sneaux.
I've taken some pictures but it was kinda hard to get up close.

Again - your insight and assistance is very much appreciated.

miro

 

[OldeEnglish]

I have installed the parts as suggested with the tee and the ball valve and it works 100%
I tried it out and it even works while I'm moving.
But since I've installed the stuff, we haven't had that much sneaux.
I've taken some pictures but it was kinda hard to get up close.

Again - your insight and assistance is very much appreciated.

miro

If I'm understanding this thread correctly..... Opening the ball valve puts the blower in a float position? Very interesting....if it works, that great.

 

[miro]

When I open the ball valve, there is no pressure on the cylinder and it retracts no longer holding up the blower.
And since the blower body is held to the cylinder with 2 chains ( either side) , the blower rides on the skids - the chains are slack.

I have set the skids so that there is about 1 1/2 in space to the ground from the cutting edge of the blower , thus leaving some snow on the ground.
That way I also do not suck up gravel - the driveway is about 1/2 mile long and all gavel.

Until I did that you could hear the clack as the gravel was shot though the chute.

I don't know if that is called the "float' position.

To raise the front blower , I close the ball valve and operate the 3 point lift lever until I get the height I want..

miro

 

[OldeEnglish]

Ok it sounds like your blower is lifted like a plow on a truck via a chain which lets the blower follow the couture of the ground. Very interesting! My b7100 has a blade that is lifted/lowered by a double action cylinder. The spool valve that controls it has a "float" position that allows the blade to follow the ground. Doesn't work as well as a chain would but it works... If you could please post a picture of the front lift setup of the blower, I would like to see what it looks like.

I was wondering where one would tie a return line into the tractor when I was building my chute rotator...Some hydraulic motors come with a case drain that need to be returned to the tank, I went with one without a case drain. Although I always wondered where a good place to tie that into and your thread answered that for me. Now my question is where do you add hydraulic fluid now? I'm assuming you tied that into the fill port but I don't know if the tractors are setup the same. Using a T, returning into the branch of the T, and plugging the top of the T would leave you a port to add fluid... Just saying