It sounds like you have a good boss that tries to head off problems before they blow up. Good for her.
Forum Participation
- Thread starter Dwight Bremer
- Start date
same problems with the "community"
you have a few that are active and have good feedback
you have a few that are keyboard warriors, and no positive feedback (or nothing positive at all)
you have a bunch that could care less, just users
you have one or two that lift others up when they need it
and then--you have chronic complainers.
you have a few that are active and have good feedback
you have a few that are keyboard warriors, and no positive feedback (or nothing positive at all)
you have a bunch that could care less, just users
you have one or two that lift others up when they need it
and then--you have chronic complainers.
I completely understand where you come from on the work side. If I am on the verge of typing a nastygram I type the email out in Word first so I don't click the wrong button and send something that will bite me later.
I participate in a half-dozen forums which discuss equipment operation and maintenance. I also am the creator and moderator of a forum hosted by an aviation group. There are several issues that surround discussion forums, in my experience.
“Censorship” —There are participants who believe their “freedom” is being curtailed by moderators. These people do not recognize that a discussion forum is not a “freedom of speech” protected area. A forum is like a club or a convention of people with a common-interest who gather to pursue that interest. It is hosted by a general-membership group or a company or an organization involved with that area of interest. The Forum group, host, or sponsor has every right to remove anyone who disrupts the meeting or interferes with the purpose of the meeting. It is no different than if an attendee to a garden-party became disruptive and offensive to the general membership.... the Host or his appointees (moderators) are charged-with the responsibility to keep the congregation focused on the primary purpose of the party. If someone shows up representing themselves as someone interested in gardening...but starts stripping and trying to turn it into a nudist-colony-gathering...the moderators will discourage that or will remove that person from the Hosts’ home.
No one, including invitees, has the “right” to disrupt a church-worship service... or a funeral.... or a dinner-party... etc. You don’t want to discuss the subjects/topics the meeting is designed for..?? Either leave or be escorted out.
“Loss of Interest”. or reduced participation —. Many times a person acquires new equipment or Desires to do so...and feels the need to be educated about their potential purchase. Once their educational needs are satisfied...they no longer feel like attending school...and they leave.
Others may enjoy sharing their experiences ...and those folks will hang-around and participate after they’ve become familiar with the machine.... OR they may run into maintenance difficulties and need to learn further “tribal knowlege” which can be gleaned from the group.... OR... they may simply find enjoyment in the company of others with similar interests.
Some people are “Type A” personalities who sometimes feel the need to express opinions over subjects which have been specifically “banned” from discussion by Host Rules or by common decency. A discussion forum about river-rafting with families or about childrens activities will not tolerate ”adult” humor or language... but if the moderator does his/her job they may be castigated over it and the participant may attempt an uprising....then (to their own anger) find themselves properly ejected. Some forums are accessed by minors and spouses and inappropriate language, pictures, or expressed-opinions not germane to the Forums’ Focus are properly moderated (“censored” as the angry participant often likes to claim.)
Get over it. When you participate in an online Forum you are visiting someone else's’ Living Room or Home. Behave. No one has any 1st Amendment ”rights” in a forum. (I love it when people claim Constitutional “rights” having never comprehended that the Constitution does not prohibit restrictions in private matters....it only prohibits FEDERAL intrusions on those rights.)
In a personal reflection as the moderator at “my” forums, we had a participant (who was actually a monetary contributor even) ... who became careless with language and often used the “S-word” which I personally find objectionable in mixed company (such as at the family forum I moderate).
I “edited” his post by changing the “S-word” to the word “Stuff” .... which made absolutely NO change to the meaning of his comment but made the post more “family friendly”.
He took great offense at that “violation of his freedom-of-speech rights” and began a public argument in the forums over that. I contacted him privately using our PM feature and he reacted by posting the ”S-word” in BOLD in several consequent posts.
I wrote a “macro” in the software that forced all efforts of the “S-word” to appear instead as ”Stuff”. His response was to make a post completely and entirely made of S - W O R D. .... spacing each letter out in order to circumnavigate the macro.
In other words...he went BALLISTIC ...over this minor matter. I gave him 2-weeks off, and he responded by leaving our forums and writing about his hate of me personally over at another forum.
We lost his monetary contributions.... and many participants at those other forums (who had never heard of us) came to our site to see what awful censorship had been thrust upon him...... and we gained dozens of new members who came to visit to see how awful we moderated at our forums.
(Ironically, his IP-Address re-appeared as a New Member with a New Username at our forums later in the year as ”NewUser” needed help fixing his airplane. Curiously, I guess he must have sold that airplane because the “NewUser” need a part for the exact-same serial-number aircraft Mr. “S-word” used to own.)
Hope that helps explain “discussion forums” from a moderators’ viewpoint. I think the moderators here at OTT do a good job.
“Censorship” —There are participants who believe their “freedom” is being curtailed by moderators. These people do not recognize that a discussion forum is not a “freedom of speech” protected area. A forum is like a club or a convention of people with a common-interest who gather to pursue that interest. It is hosted by a general-membership group or a company or an organization involved with that area of interest. The Forum group, host, or sponsor has every right to remove anyone who disrupts the meeting or interferes with the purpose of the meeting. It is no different than if an attendee to a garden-party became disruptive and offensive to the general membership.... the Host or his appointees (moderators) are charged-with the responsibility to keep the congregation focused on the primary purpose of the party. If someone shows up representing themselves as someone interested in gardening...but starts stripping and trying to turn it into a nudist-colony-gathering...the moderators will discourage that or will remove that person from the Hosts’ home.
No one, including invitees, has the “right” to disrupt a church-worship service... or a funeral.... or a dinner-party... etc. You don’t want to discuss the subjects/topics the meeting is designed for..?? Either leave or be escorted out.
“Loss of Interest”. or reduced participation —. Many times a person acquires new equipment or Desires to do so...and feels the need to be educated about their potential purchase. Once their educational needs are satisfied...they no longer feel like attending school...and they leave.
Others may enjoy sharing their experiences ...and those folks will hang-around and participate after they’ve become familiar with the machine.... OR they may run into maintenance difficulties and need to learn further “tribal knowlege” which can be gleaned from the group.... OR... they may simply find enjoyment in the company of others with similar interests.
Some people are “Type A” personalities who sometimes feel the need to express opinions over subjects which have been specifically “banned” from discussion by Host Rules or by common decency. A discussion forum about river-rafting with families or about childrens activities will not tolerate ”adult” humor or language... but if the moderator does his/her job they may be castigated over it and the participant may attempt an uprising....then (to their own anger) find themselves properly ejected. Some forums are accessed by minors and spouses and inappropriate language, pictures, or expressed-opinions not germane to the Forums’ Focus are properly moderated (“censored” as the angry participant often likes to claim.)
Get over it. When you participate in an online Forum you are visiting someone else's’ Living Room or Home. Behave. No one has any 1st Amendment ”rights” in a forum. (I love it when people claim Constitutional “rights” having never comprehended that the Constitution does not prohibit restrictions in private matters....it only prohibits FEDERAL intrusions on those rights.)
In a personal reflection as the moderator at “my” forums, we had a participant (who was actually a monetary contributor even) ... who became careless with language and often used the “S-word” which I personally find objectionable in mixed company (such as at the family forum I moderate).
I “edited” his post by changing the “S-word” to the word “Stuff” .... which made absolutely NO change to the meaning of his comment but made the post more “family friendly”.
He took great offense at that “violation of his freedom-of-speech rights” and began a public argument in the forums over that. I contacted him privately using our PM feature and he reacted by posting the ”S-word” in BOLD in several consequent posts.
I wrote a “macro” in the software that forced all efforts of the “S-word” to appear instead as ”Stuff”. His response was to make a post completely and entirely made of S - W O R D. .... spacing each letter out in order to circumnavigate the macro.
In other words...he went BALLISTIC ...over this minor matter. I gave him 2-weeks off, and he responded by leaving our forums and writing about his hate of me personally over at another forum.
We lost his monetary contributions.... and many participants at those other forums (who had never heard of us) came to our site to see what awful censorship had been thrust upon him...... and we gained dozens of new members who came to visit to see how awful we moderated at our forums.
(Ironically, his IP-Address re-appeared as a New Member with a New Username at our forums later in the year as ”NewUser” needed help fixing his airplane. Curiously, I guess he must have sold that airplane because the “NewUser” need a part for the exact-same serial-number aircraft Mr. “S-word” used to own.)
Hope that helps explain “discussion forums” from a moderators’ viewpoint. I think the moderators here at OTT do a good job.
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shelkol
Active member
Equipment
bx-2200, Woods BH6000 backhoe, Tach-N-Go quick attach bucket, snow blower
I follow forums as long as I am interested in the subject and the content is acceptable.
Some forums are just people chatting - I don't hang around. My time is more valuable.
Some forums provide technical content, stuff I can learn and increase my knowledge, those are more interesting. I want to see how people do things.
My hobbies also come and go: Just sold my ATV, too dusty and too far to ride to get to nice trails. Will be leaving those forums.
I also try to only reply when I have an idea of what I'm talking about. So far I haven't been yelled at. Have been corrected on one or two posts, but we're not all perfect.
Thanks for all you moderator do. I appreciate it
Some forums are just people chatting - I don't hang around. My time is more valuable.
Some forums provide technical content, stuff I can learn and increase my knowledge, those are more interesting. I want to see how people do things.
My hobbies also come and go: Just sold my ATV, too dusty and too far to ride to get to nice trails. Will be leaving those forums.
I also try to only reply when I have an idea of what I'm talking about. So far I haven't been yelled at. Have been corrected on one or two posts, but we're not all perfect.
Thanks for all you moderator do. I appreciate it
Magicman
Well-known member
Lifetime Member
Equipment
M4900 Utility Special 4WD e/w FEL & 1530 John Deere "Traveling Man"
Thank You GeoHorn for that in depth explanation concerning one's "rights" on a forum. 
Guttermouth has no place on any forum and even though OTT is a bit looser than I like, I do appreciate the control and self control that is the normal here.
I personally fall into one of your categories. As a new Kubota owner (me, not the tractor), I needed some questions answered and quickly found the willingness to help here. Since then I have gleaned useful information and tips to make my life easier and hopefully what I share about my daily activities helps someone else. Well at least entertaining.
Guttermouth has no place on any forum and even though OTT is a bit looser than I like, I do appreciate the control and self control that is the normal here. I personally fall into one of your categories. As a new Kubota owner (me, not the tractor), I needed some questions answered and quickly found the willingness to help here. Since then I have gleaned useful information and tips to make my life easier and hopefully what I share about my daily activities helps someone else. Well at least entertaining.
I don't have much problem with moderation on most forums - I think plenty of good reasons have already been given supporting moderation (especially when done well).
Where I begin to have a problem is when moderation steps are taken without informing the infringer of what they did to infringe. If you do something the moderator considers to be crossing a line but all you get is "you can't post for a week because you did something bad", there's no way to learn what that line is.
(I wouldn't actually know first-hand, because I've never been subject to moderation action on any forum - but I've heard that complaint enough that I think there's likely something to it.)
Where I begin to have a problem is when moderation steps are taken without informing the infringer of what they did to infringe. If you do something the moderator considers to be crossing a line but all you get is "you can't post for a week because you did something bad", there's no way to learn what that line is.
(I wouldn't actually know first-hand, because I've never been subject to moderation action on any forum - but I've heard that complaint enough that I think there's likely something to it.)
That as I recall was explained by a moderator, to the forum members as a group, and was at least in this incident caused because the member checked a box in his personal message that did not allow replies. So yeah he didn’t get an immediate answer. Otherwise seems like it should be intuitively obvious unless you don’t remember what you wrote and it got deleted. No politics, no nasty treatment of other members, family friendly, see the rules. A lot slides by because it is not seen by a moderator and folks insist on pushing the envelope.
Magicman
Well-known member
Lifetime Member
Equipment
M4900 Utility Special 4WD e/w FEL & 1530 John Deere "Traveling Man"
I agree random about being notified. That being said, I also have never been the subject of moderation so I don't actually know what may or may not be done. I strongly suspect that we only hear part (or none) of the story when members cross lines that they should not cross.
My comment was a generality, based on what I've seen on many forums, not just here. The above incident was, I think, a pretty clear case, and doesn't fit what I was saying at all.
I have a problem with this: "seems like it should be intuitively obvious" - I disagree. In some cases, that follows and the violation IS obvious, but perceptions differ and many people would draw the line at different places. "No politics" is going to be a different line for different people. "Family friendly" will be different (whose family?). These are subjective measures, and are subject to differing interpretations. Obviously, the moderator's interpretations are the ones that matter. But if the violation isn't specified, how does anyone know what line is crossed?
Saying it should be "obvious" is too much like "Johnny, go to your room"; "What did I do?"; "You know what you did". What would you think of a parent disciplining a child like that?
There is obviously a huge misunderstanding between moderation and censorship.
Geo, this isn't a first amendment or free speech issue, you can let that go, nobody brought it up but you. Nobody is crying about it so no need for everyone that doesn't agree with you to "get over it".
Like I said, the ones that benefit from it, cheer the censorship. They will tell everyone to "get over it".
Vulgar content gets removed - that is moderation and expected.
ONE side of a conversation gets edited/deleted THAT IS CENSORSHIP.
Censorship or moderation? Geo calls a bunch of us Nazis and the replies are removed but his is left alone.
Yes, we all know the forum owners can do what they want. There are also consequences that go along with those decisions. In some cases you lose customers. In some cases you lose participation. In some cases you lose the good will of the posts.
This is where I am at right now. I love my tractor and all things tractoring so I will come here for the community but I will not "give it my all" as I did at the start, I will be more apt now to say RTFM instead of taking the time to get the info/picture and really help them. So yes, the owners can do what they want, but the rest of us don't live in a vacuum. It isn't the users that changed my participation.
Geo, this isn't a first amendment or free speech issue, you can let that go, nobody brought it up but you. Nobody is crying about it so no need for everyone that doesn't agree with you to "get over it".
Like I said, the ones that benefit from it, cheer the censorship. They will tell everyone to "get over it".
Vulgar content gets removed - that is moderation and expected.
ONE side of a conversation gets edited/deleted THAT IS CENSORSHIP.
Censorship or moderation? Geo calls a bunch of us Nazis and the replies are removed but his is left alone.
Yes, we all know the forum owners can do what they want. There are also consequences that go along with those decisions. In some cases you lose customers. In some cases you lose participation. In some cases you lose the good will of the posts.
This is where I am at right now. I love my tractor and all things tractoring so I will come here for the community but I will not "give it my all" as I did at the start, I will be more apt now to say RTFM instead of taking the time to get the info/picture and really help them. So yes, the owners can do what they want, but the rest of us don't live in a vacuum. It isn't the users that changed my participation.
Magicman
Well-known member
Lifetime Member
Equipment
M4900 Utility Special 4WD e/w FEL & 1530 John Deere "Traveling Man"
You say that and then use the term; "RTFM". I had to use Google to find out what it meant and to me the term is vulgar and by your own definition; "Vulgar content gets removed - that is moderation and expected."
Sir, you can't have it both ways. Gutter talk is gutter talk whether spoken or abbreviated.
Have what both ways?
RTFM means Read The Factory Manual. If it offends you, complain to the mods, they will delete it. Were you offended by it before or after you looked it up? Think about that.
RTFM means Read The Factory Manual. If it offends you, complain to the mods, they will delete it. Were you offended by it before or after you looked it up? Think about that.
Magicman
Well-known member
Lifetime Member
Equipment
M4900 Utility Special 4WD e/w FEL & 1530 John Deere "Traveling Man"
There is nothing for me to think about.
I am a big boy and wasn't offended or complaining at all, just pointing out your hypocrisy.
I am a big boy and wasn't offended or complaining at all, just pointing out your hypocrisy.
motionclone
Well-known member
Lifetime Member
Equipment
L345DT with Lp mower, forks and grapple thumb, Bobcat 337 Midi Ex
you would get more thumbs ups on this truth bomb but those that would give it have been chased off and dont participate at all.
OrangeKrush
Well-known member
Equipment
BX2680, LA344 with Piranha tooth bar, LP PF 1242, LP Rear Blade, KK 60" BB
NCL4701
Well-known member
Equipment
L4701, T2290, WC68, grapple, BB1572, Farmi W50R, Howes 500, 16kW IMD gen, WG24
Interesting discussion about moderating. I’m a member of a local neighborhood forum which seems to be mostly somebody lost a dog, somebody else found a dog, people are breaking into cars somewhere. People get pretty nasty with each other over the most petty things there with no repercussions. Some guy posted a grainy video recently of an animal trolling through his yard and asked people’s opinion on whether it was a cat or a fox. Most people voted for fox. I started to post “It looked like it had a cat’s head and a fox’s tail but I’m pretty sure canines and felines can’t crossbreed so I really got no clue but I’m voting for fox.” I get an immediate (as in robo edit immediate) “This post does not meet our guidelines and will not be posted. If you wish to edit, you can do so now.” So I’m thinking I can call someone a commie or a racist or a stupid SOB on this neighborhood forum but mentioning the impossibility of crossbreeding of cats and foxes has crossed the line. Second time something similar has happened. I rarely read there and am done trying to post there. Other than “keep it respectful” (which is not enforced) I have zero clue what the moderators’ rules are for that forum. No debate they can do what they want, I just have no idea what the real rules are and no way I know of to ask.
The core purpose of this forum is topics centered on Kubota equipment, mostly tractors. This isn’t “The Housewives of …” so the cat fights aren’t why I come here.
I haven’t seen many sniping personal attacks lately, particularly since Flip departed. When I see conversations devolve into shouting matches, personal or not, I move on. I’ve only participated briefly in one of those and even though reading it back later I’d say I “won”, I would have felt more like a winner if I’d skipped it altogether, and I do regret it. And I have posted in Off Topic about political/social issues that others have started but I haven’t done that for quite a while.
I suspect, with very little empirical evidence aside from statistical probabilities, that there are many here that I vehemently disagree with on politics, religion, death penalty, race relations, abortion, sexuality, sin, and who knows what all else. This forum isn’t about any of those things and therefore they aren’t appropriate topics.
The thing we all have in common is Kubota and associated implements and projects so that’s THE topic. I don’t see anything wrong with a bunch of people who are on opposite ends of numerous issues (or not) coming together to share experiences, knowledge and help each other over a common interest. I also believe if we focused more on our commonalities and common goals as opposed to focusing so consistently on our differences it would be a good thing in general.
The core purpose of this forum is topics centered on Kubota equipment, mostly tractors. This isn’t “The Housewives of …” so the cat fights aren’t why I come here.
I haven’t seen many sniping personal attacks lately, particularly since Flip departed. When I see conversations devolve into shouting matches, personal or not, I move on. I’ve only participated briefly in one of those and even though reading it back later I’d say I “won”, I would have felt more like a winner if I’d skipped it altogether, and I do regret it. And I have posted in Off Topic about political/social issues that others have started but I haven’t done that for quite a while.
I suspect, with very little empirical evidence aside from statistical probabilities, that there are many here that I vehemently disagree with on politics, religion, death penalty, race relations, abortion, sexuality, sin, and who knows what all else. This forum isn’t about any of those things and therefore they aren’t appropriate topics.
The thing we all have in common is Kubota and associated implements and projects so that’s THE topic. I don’t see anything wrong with a bunch of people who are on opposite ends of numerous issues (or not) coming together to share experiences, knowledge and help each other over a common interest. I also believe if we focused more on our commonalities and common goals as opposed to focusing so consistently on our differences it would be a good thing in general.
shelkol
Active member
Equipment
bx-2200, Woods BH6000 backhoe, Tach-N-Go quick attach bucket, snow blower