My local dealer doesn't use book rate for any repairs, and as a result, i spend a fortune watching them try to troubleshoot at my cost, these techs are supposed to be factory trained, yet mine seem just keep throwing new parts at the problem until it works. I spent $4k on AC repair over 3 trips last summer, now it's not working again and the tech says he has no clue, but will try his best to find the problem. I said how many hours does he feel it'll be, he said as long as it takes him to figure it out. I feel like i'm paying to train him while he learns to educated himself at my expense, anyone else share this frustration?
flat (book) rate service
- Thread starter fulton
- Start date
That's pretty much how all dealership mechanics work anymore. I've had much better luck at local shops rather than dealerships. It definitely irritates me because i actually was a dealership mechanic at one point a long time ago, and the amount of scrutiny and quality control the dealership had over me was ridiculous. Now it's basically just "Meh, we just won't do any diagnostics, throw some parts at it, not fix it, then demand to get paid anyway."
The trick i try with them any time i work with a dealership is i get a written in stone estimate then tell them, "Ok, i'm fine with paying this, but if it doesn't fix the problem i'm not paying you a dime, ok?" Most service writer and mechanics anymore are so dumb and arrogant they pretty much always agree to this.
The trick i try with them any time i work with a dealership is i get a written in stone estimate then tell them, "Ok, i'm fine with paying this, but if it doesn't fix the problem i'm not paying you a dime, ok?" Most service writer and mechanics anymore are so dumb and arrogant they pretty much always agree to this.
I'd also just shop for a different dealer or independent repair shop. I agree with the estimate. In some locations, they have to come back to you before spending more than 10% more.
Agreed, but I know what they’ll say, “can’t give you an estimate until I figure it out”. I’ll try and find an independent, closest other dealer is over an hour away.
Why not look for am AC tech nearby. You'll have someone who knows the industry, doesn't need to know tractors!
well they SHOULD be able to give you an estimate provided they actually did the diagnostic work FIRST. Instead of just saying, "Meh, i dunno, we're going to try some parts then we'll figure it out afterwards".
Flat rate. Techs hate it, Techs love it. It can be both loved and hated.
First off, nobody that I know of, at kubota dealers, is required to use flat rate, except in the case of warranty repairs. That is the only time it's required with Kubota (and a lot of other manufacturers as well-but not all). Some DEALERS will require techs to work flat-rate only. They typically have the lowest price, but the highest turnover rate for techs. If I know that a job pays 0.75 hours and I know for a fact that no matter how many times I do it, I'm never gonna do it in under 1.0 hours, then I'm not too excited about losing money. It's like going to work and KNOWING that you are not going to be able to take home as much as you can. BUT sometimes it works pretty good too. Basic repairs, maintenance items can be done faster than flat rate (usually) and repetitively, they can add up to a decent paycheck. But the customer, if book time is 0.5 hours for an oil change and the customer knows the tech did it in 0.1 hours, the customer is automatically going to want to be charged for 0.1 hours. I've been down this road too (with a Kawasucky motorcycle engine repair) and the customer actually took us to small claims over it-and lost his case. Judge told him the same thing that we told him, just because book time is 5.0 hours, that doesn't mean we have to charge 5.0 hours-there is no law requiring it, and if there ever was, a lot of repair facilities would either shut down or find ways to make money elsewhere (fees, etc to recover the losses).
People on the outside looking in, have no idea what the ACTUAL time to do a job is. No idea whatsoever. Think of it as building a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. You have to go get the bread, take the tie off, take the slices out of the bag, put down a paper towel or plate (whatever you use...I use the work bench pretty often), go get the peanut butter from where it's kept, get the jelly outta the fridge, go get a butter knife, remove the lid from peanut butter, spread the peanut butter on said slice of bread, then repeat with the jelly. Then put the jelly back in the fridge, put the lid back on the peanut butter, put it back in the pantry, put the tie back on the bread loaf, put the loaf back up where it goes, wash your hands, maybe twiced if you're like my wife (or in her case 3 times), wash the knife off, put the knife back in the drawer, then maybe you can go sit down somewhere quiet and eat it. Example: Let's say I'm doing an engine R&R, since I did one today. Book time is 5.5. That's the time that they (manufacturer) figures it'll take to DO THE JOB, not including writing a parts list, pulling parts (if I have to do that-and I usually do), finding the key for the equipment, finding the equipment outside in the stack of 47 other machines that may or may not look identical, verify the VIN to the RO, bring the equipment into the shop (in this case, dead equipment), line it up and get it on the rack, THEN I can R&R the engine. Once R&R'd, have to verify it's working properly, verify the equipment isn't going to fall apart on a test drive (trust me, this IS a concern on some stuff...including tractors!), once that's done and IF it all goes as planned (and it rarely does, you know bolts often break, strip, are already broken or stripped, etc), and the test drive is ok, then I have to run it to the detail bay, and while they're working their magic, I'm finishing the paperwork-which can take a while depending on the job. Verify parts, verify service labor is per estimate (sometimes it is, sometimes it ain't), make sure that everything is good. Then, HOPEFULLY the detail shop doesn't find a loose bolt or nut, or another unrelated problem--because if they do, that's usually more time, and oftentimes time for that particular job that doesn't get accounted for since Mr. Customer isn't expecting anything over X dollar amount, since he's already been quoted the estimated cost to do said job.
and that's just doing a job. Remember there's a whole lot more to a tech's job than fixing stuff. Working with manufacturers, helping each other (pulling dead equipment into/out of the shop....), TRAINING (that was a sore subject with the dealer I worked at), etc. Training was usually once a year, but they sent us halfway across the country for 3 days to 3 weeks and we didn't have a choice. My dad had surgery 2 days before and was doign well, and then had some complications....boss said I either GO, or he'd terminate my employment. It was mandatory. Needless to say, I didn't go-family comes first. Wasn't long after, I terminated myself from that job. Sometimes it was 2, 3, 5 times a year just depends on what "they" wanted us to train on. The significance of training? I had to go to Dallas since it was the closest training center, but had to go to KC a few times as well (I'm about halfway between the two). Well, you train in class for 7 or 8 hours. Then what? You ain't going home. "Most" of the guys went to the strip clubs and bars and such. I don't partake in either, so it was pretty uneventful. Company pays X amount for gas and motel. YOu go over that, it's on you (the tech) so you had to budget for it, and it didn't include going anywhere after "school" in most cases. Well meals cost a lot more in Dallas than they do here, so if I'm gone for 5 days I had enough for usually 3 maybe 4 if I ate rice and beans. Most times I was forced to drive my own vehicle. LOL, yeah I drove a 2004 Mustang to Dallas....several times...had 400,000 miles on it when I was done with it, and it was NOT that nice of a car (you get the idea). Breakdown? On me. Why should the company pay for MY car breaking down? BUT--towing it to a repair facility and paying them to fix whatever the problem was, was on me as well, but if I broke down locally (near home, say 30 miles or so radius), I can have it towed home, fix it myself for pennies in comparison. So yes, training was a pain in the posterior. Where I'm at now, MOST of the training is online, and it is VERY good by comparison. And I get paid to do it (commission pay) even if I do it at home on my time I still get paid for it. Part of that is the difference in the dealers. Part of it is the differences in manufacturer policy. If you're working commission pay (like I was at the kubota shop), training costs you a lot of money. I figured it up, if I billed 50 hours a week, I made about $1000 in commission. If I went to training for a week, I lost $1000, plus a couple of meals and possibly fuel costs. Plus being away from home (I have a second job from home so that is also a loss) and I own a business. ILT cost me (and the other tech) a LOT of money over the 2 1/2 years I was at that dealer.
It's a whole lot more complicated than people think it is and isn't going to get any less complicated anytime soon. Kubota once preached to all techs that we had to use a 7 step process and document all 7 steps, and had to do all this in flat rate time. It was impossible, and a bunch of us pushed back and I "think" (Dan and others can verify) that they've cut it back to 3 or 4 steps now. It was the dumbest thing that they'd come up with. I know why they did it, but I also know it wasted a lot of unnecessary time for which the customer ended up paying for in one way or another. THAT was the part that I did not agree with. If book time was 0.5 hour and we were doing the actual job (tools out, to tools up time) in 0.8 hour, we were able to make that up in some cases by charging Kubota for, say, cleaning-or whatever. Now they (and everyone else) wants pics of the equipment--which takes time as well, to take the pics, upload them (this part takes a while in some cases) and that isn't paid for. Thats why I have to text them to the service manager, who does that for us, and "most" of the time he does it correctly. He gets overwhelmed too, ain't none of us perfect humans-if we were, we'd certainly be in a different line of work.
Around here, independent shops also use flat rate so you're not avoiding it there either. Some do, some dont. Customer-pay jobs, if you ask a shop how much a job is going to cost and they quote you "book time", they may lose money, or you may lose money. Depends on the type of job and the type equipment. If it's an a/c job, they're very likely going to NOT quote flat rate because they don't know how much time it's gonna take until they start doing it. And since they're not bound to flat rate by anyone, they're not going to use it. But they might use it on a simple repetitive job, say an oil change or something.
First off, nobody that I know of, at kubota dealers, is required to use flat rate, except in the case of warranty repairs. That is the only time it's required with Kubota (and a lot of other manufacturers as well-but not all). Some DEALERS will require techs to work flat-rate only. They typically have the lowest price, but the highest turnover rate for techs. If I know that a job pays 0.75 hours and I know for a fact that no matter how many times I do it, I'm never gonna do it in under 1.0 hours, then I'm not too excited about losing money. It's like going to work and KNOWING that you are not going to be able to take home as much as you can. BUT sometimes it works pretty good too. Basic repairs, maintenance items can be done faster than flat rate (usually) and repetitively, they can add up to a decent paycheck. But the customer, if book time is 0.5 hours for an oil change and the customer knows the tech did it in 0.1 hours, the customer is automatically going to want to be charged for 0.1 hours. I've been down this road too (with a Kawasucky motorcycle engine repair) and the customer actually took us to small claims over it-and lost his case. Judge told him the same thing that we told him, just because book time is 5.0 hours, that doesn't mean we have to charge 5.0 hours-there is no law requiring it, and if there ever was, a lot of repair facilities would either shut down or find ways to make money elsewhere (fees, etc to recover the losses).
People on the outside looking in, have no idea what the ACTUAL time to do a job is. No idea whatsoever. Think of it as building a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. You have to go get the bread, take the tie off, take the slices out of the bag, put down a paper towel or plate (whatever you use...I use the work bench pretty often), go get the peanut butter from where it's kept, get the jelly outta the fridge, go get a butter knife, remove the lid from peanut butter, spread the peanut butter on said slice of bread, then repeat with the jelly. Then put the jelly back in the fridge, put the lid back on the peanut butter, put it back in the pantry, put the tie back on the bread loaf, put the loaf back up where it goes, wash your hands, maybe twiced if you're like my wife (or in her case 3 times), wash the knife off, put the knife back in the drawer, then maybe you can go sit down somewhere quiet and eat it. Example: Let's say I'm doing an engine R&R, since I did one today. Book time is 5.5. That's the time that they (manufacturer) figures it'll take to DO THE JOB, not including writing a parts list, pulling parts (if I have to do that-and I usually do), finding the key for the equipment, finding the equipment outside in the stack of 47 other machines that may or may not look identical, verify the VIN to the RO, bring the equipment into the shop (in this case, dead equipment), line it up and get it on the rack, THEN I can R&R the engine. Once R&R'd, have to verify it's working properly, verify the equipment isn't going to fall apart on a test drive (trust me, this IS a concern on some stuff...including tractors!), once that's done and IF it all goes as planned (and it rarely does, you know bolts often break, strip, are already broken or stripped, etc), and the test drive is ok, then I have to run it to the detail bay, and while they're working their magic, I'm finishing the paperwork-which can take a while depending on the job. Verify parts, verify service labor is per estimate (sometimes it is, sometimes it ain't), make sure that everything is good. Then, HOPEFULLY the detail shop doesn't find a loose bolt or nut, or another unrelated problem--because if they do, that's usually more time, and oftentimes time for that particular job that doesn't get accounted for since Mr. Customer isn't expecting anything over X dollar amount, since he's already been quoted the estimated cost to do said job.
and that's just doing a job. Remember there's a whole lot more to a tech's job than fixing stuff. Working with manufacturers, helping each other (pulling dead equipment into/out of the shop....), TRAINING (that was a sore subject with the dealer I worked at), etc. Training was usually once a year, but they sent us halfway across the country for 3 days to 3 weeks and we didn't have a choice. My dad had surgery 2 days before and was doign well, and then had some complications....boss said I either GO, or he'd terminate my employment. It was mandatory. Needless to say, I didn't go-family comes first. Wasn't long after, I terminated myself from that job. Sometimes it was 2, 3, 5 times a year just depends on what "they" wanted us to train on. The significance of training? I had to go to Dallas since it was the closest training center, but had to go to KC a few times as well (I'm about halfway between the two). Well, you train in class for 7 or 8 hours. Then what? You ain't going home. "Most" of the guys went to the strip clubs and bars and such. I don't partake in either, so it was pretty uneventful. Company pays X amount for gas and motel. YOu go over that, it's on you (the tech) so you had to budget for it, and it didn't include going anywhere after "school" in most cases. Well meals cost a lot more in Dallas than they do here, so if I'm gone for 5 days I had enough for usually 3 maybe 4 if I ate rice and beans. Most times I was forced to drive my own vehicle. LOL, yeah I drove a 2004 Mustang to Dallas....several times...had 400,000 miles on it when I was done with it, and it was NOT that nice of a car (you get the idea). Breakdown? On me. Why should the company pay for MY car breaking down? BUT--towing it to a repair facility and paying them to fix whatever the problem was, was on me as well, but if I broke down locally (near home, say 30 miles or so radius), I can have it towed home, fix it myself for pennies in comparison. So yes, training was a pain in the posterior. Where I'm at now, MOST of the training is online, and it is VERY good by comparison. And I get paid to do it (commission pay) even if I do it at home on my time I still get paid for it. Part of that is the difference in the dealers. Part of it is the differences in manufacturer policy. If you're working commission pay (like I was at the kubota shop), training costs you a lot of money. I figured it up, if I billed 50 hours a week, I made about $1000 in commission. If I went to training for a week, I lost $1000, plus a couple of meals and possibly fuel costs. Plus being away from home (I have a second job from home so that is also a loss) and I own a business. ILT cost me (and the other tech) a LOT of money over the 2 1/2 years I was at that dealer.
It's a whole lot more complicated than people think it is and isn't going to get any less complicated anytime soon. Kubota once preached to all techs that we had to use a 7 step process and document all 7 steps, and had to do all this in flat rate time. It was impossible, and a bunch of us pushed back and I "think" (Dan and others can verify) that they've cut it back to 3 or 4 steps now. It was the dumbest thing that they'd come up with. I know why they did it, but I also know it wasted a lot of unnecessary time for which the customer ended up paying for in one way or another. THAT was the part that I did not agree with. If book time was 0.5 hour and we were doing the actual job (tools out, to tools up time) in 0.8 hour, we were able to make that up in some cases by charging Kubota for, say, cleaning-or whatever. Now they (and everyone else) wants pics of the equipment--which takes time as well, to take the pics, upload them (this part takes a while in some cases) and that isn't paid for. Thats why I have to text them to the service manager, who does that for us, and "most" of the time he does it correctly. He gets overwhelmed too, ain't none of us perfect humans-if we were, we'd certainly be in a different line of work.
Around here, independent shops also use flat rate so you're not avoiding it there either. Some do, some dont. Customer-pay jobs, if you ask a shop how much a job is going to cost and they quote you "book time", they may lose money, or you may lose money. Depends on the type of job and the type equipment. If it's an a/c job, they're very likely going to NOT quote flat rate because they don't know how much time it's gonna take until they start doing it. And since they're not bound to flat rate by anyone, they're not going to use it. But they might use it on a simple repetitive job, say an oil change or something.
whitetiger
Moderator
Staff member
Equipment
Kubota tech..BX2370, RCK60, B7100HST, RTV900 w plow, Ford 1100 FWA
And then there is the customer with a beat-up, rusted SVL95-2 he has used to load salt spreaders for 7 winters, "I have an intermittent electrical problem. What is the Repair Time Schedule quote for repair?"
True story!!
True story!!
Good example--and for those that can't comprehend, there is no flat rate on those kinds of jobs and obviously if the dealer works on flat rate only, the tech is probably not gonna be very happy. IF he stays.And then there is the customer with a beat-up, rusted SVL95-2 he has used to load salt spreaders for 7 winters, "I have an intermittent electrical problem. What is the Repair Time Schedule quote for repair?"
True story!!
yeah we had flat rate only, and techs came and went. Often. 118 of them IIRC. I used to keep a list but then I added myself to that list, and handed it to the other tech as I loaded my stuff up.
I think people (owners/managers, and techs) have to remember that the toolboxes have wheels and not every person who walks the Earth can do that job. Those that can, sometimes don't want to. And I'm rapidly approaching the latter. I like what I do but my body doesn't.
one more think about flat rate. Say I'm doing a job that pays 1.0 hour. I'm usually not in any rush, 99% of the time I can beat it without hurrying. HOWEVER, I'm one of those that doesn't really like the fact that I'm working on customer equipment with a timer running in the background. It's in the back of your head all the time and subconsciously it wears on you, which can cause mistakes to be made. It's a natural thing. Some techs work around that better than others but it's always there. I got used to it but didn't like it.
I do everything within my skills and abilities to be self sufficient, in every aspect of my life and all related to. I go about things that way...not only because I'm cheap, also because if I do it, I know it's been done. If I don't know how to do it and it's above my qualifications, I'll find someone who does know. At that point, I KNOW it will likely cost me a kidney....and possibly more.
I take care of and maintain everything I own. There's a reason for that.
Books, manuals, hands-on, friends and close acquaintances, I cherish. I welcome all the knowledge from anyone willing to share. I've paid for and have been to many schools and classes throughout my life as well.
I take care of and maintain everything I own. There's a reason for that.
Books, manuals, hands-on, friends and close acquaintances, I cherish. I welcome all the knowledge from anyone willing to share. I've paid for and have been to many schools and classes throughout my life as well.
GreensvilleJay
Well-known member
Equipment
BX23-S,57 A-C D-14,58 A-C D-14, 57 A-C D-14,tiller,cults,Millcreek 25G spreader,
One big gripe for me is when a shop changes 4-5 parts and it's the last part that was NEEDED yet you get CHARGED for the other 4. THAT is NOT right. Either put back my old parts or don't charge me for your UNNEEDED ones. AND, return MY original parts to me,unless under warranty.
depends on the part. If I install an oil filter, and start the engine, that filter is yours. I can't return-much less sell it to someone else at that point. That's one example of many. Spark plugs as well. There are some instances where there are multiple parts that have to be replaced in order to rectify one single complaint as well. But oftentimes folks don't understand that. Electrical problems are kind of that way at times; say when a controller or module is suspect. There is no test for a lot of them, and sometimes there are tests for them but at the end of the testing instruction, the books can tell us to test everything else and if everything else tests good, replace that module anyway. So a lot of times I don't bother testing those things, just test everything else related and if it's all good (and I didn't miss something during testing), you're getting a new module. Then theres times when, say a module has failed but then we have to question, what caused it to fail? Another part is sometimes the culprit, say a shorted or corroded or broken wire. Did a Polaris a while back that couldn't get the AWD to work. Shop manual (and Polaris tech support) said test this and that, and if those are all good, it has to be the module. I gave them the test results, they said put a module on it. Didn't solve it. $750 module, and problem still exists. Found a wire broken INSIDE the insulation and making intermittent contact. Problem is, the module is programmed specifically for that VIN and cannot be used on any other equipment. So in cases like that, tech needs to be diligent in educating the customer as such. Lucky for us, our SM knows a thing or two, and does an excellent job of keeping folks in the know.
fried1765
Well-known member
Equipment
Kubota L48 TLB, Ford 1920 FEL, Ford 8N, SCAG Liberty Z, Gravely Pro.
GreensvilleJay
Well-known member
Equipment
BX23-S,57 A-C D-14,58 A-C D-14, 57 A-C D-14,tiller,cults,Millcreek 25G spreader,
in this particular case ...
re: I gave them the test results, they said put a module on it. Didn't solve it. $750 module, and problem still exists.
'they' should eat the $750 and labour NOT the customer, after all HIS module was not defective.
Question. Did you return the customer's perfectly GOOD module ?
re: I gave them the test results, they said put a module on it. Didn't solve it. $750 module, and problem still exists.
'they' should eat the $750 and labour NOT the customer, after all HIS module was not defective.
Question. Did you return the customer's perfectly GOOD module ?
I had been in the industry, at dealers and at the OEM. Some mechanics can beat flat rate 90% of the time and all work they do, they get paid flat rate. Some routinely beat flat rate by 100% and got paid for 16 hours work in an eight hour day.
The n00bs get straight time and the customer is billed flat rate. The n00bs are also, of course, paid less so the dollars work out for the shop.A n00b that is so slow that the shop loses money on is often eventually sent packing if steady improvement is not seen.
Mechanics usually were given the choice of how they wanted to get paid. A guy working hourly, realizing he was beating flat rate, can request the bump, but no going back. Flat rate also meant the mechanic ate come-backs.
The n00bs get straight time and the customer is billed flat rate. The n00bs are also, of course, paid less so the dollars work out for the shop.A n00b that is so slow that the shop loses money on is often eventually sent packing if steady improvement is not seen.
Mechanics usually were given the choice of how they wanted to get paid. A guy working hourly, realizing he was beating flat rate, can request the bump, but no going back. Flat rate also meant the mechanic ate come-backs.