First time in 12 years that the ATF has contacted me to request a trace on a firearm.

[McMXi]

I've had an FFL/SOT for around 12 years now, and earlier in the week received a call from the ATF to ask for information on a firearm transfer that went through my FFL in 2015. Technically that's outside the time window required by the ATF for me to keep records so it would have been my right to politely decline the request for assistance, but heck, I'm here to help.

A friend who was a coworker at a firearms company back in 2015 ordered two Smith & Wesson M&P 15-22 rifles on a pro deal direct from Smith & Wesson, one for him and one for me. I did the transfer for him and I still have the one that I bought. The ATF only provided the serial number and asked me about the disposition and so I looked through my book and managed to find the number and realized that it was M&P that I had transferred to my friend. He was a Highway Patrol officer in Montana for 20 years before I worked with him and a really good guy so I called him to give him a heads up that the ATF will be contacting him shortly.

Turns out that he sold the M&P 15-22 to one of his friends a few years ago, also a retired police officer. It's legal to sell a firearm to a private party in Montana without any formal paper trail, but the seller must have a reasonable expectation that the buyer is legally able to purchase and possess said firearm, so my friend could tell the ATF that he sold it and has no record of the sale. I doubt he'll do that but I think he can choose that option if he wants.

So the obvious question is why does the ATF need to trace the firearm. Either it was used in a crime, suicide or recovered in some LE involved scenario. I've asked me friend to let me know when the ATF contacts him. I mentioned that he was a friend which the ATF recorded as "known to dealer", but they didn't want/need his cell phone number which I thought was odd.

Anyway, interesting stuff given that I've never been contacted by the ATF for a trace on a firearm during the 12+ years I've had an FFL/SOT.

 

[ken erickson]

I was under the impression that 4473’s and the FFL holders A+D bound book needed to be kept for 20 years and recently that has been changed to the lifetime of the FFL?

 

[Workerbee]

LE told me its 10 years. This was 3-4 years ago though. Might have changed.

 

[Henro]

First thing that popped into my mine was "Wonder how McMXi determined he was actually talking to the ATF?"

Guess in today's world I learned to be suspicious of every phone caller that I don't know...

 

[GrumpyFarmer]

My comments are not intended to make this political or go down a deep rabbit hole.

As a young man (old enough to drive legally) I drove my dad’s van (with my family) on a family trip from my extended families ranch in TX to Waco to see the remnants of the compound and visit the Texas Ranger museum (that was F N awesome) and the Hall of horns which I was given tokens at the brewery/hospitality room and able to get beer in public regardless of not being able to wear out a razor yet. Regarding the compound and what I had heard and seen on TV before the trip, A lot of things simply did not add up no matter how you looked at the leftovers. At that time I learned the value of travel. When you travel no one can tell you what you did or did not see or learn from locals. That trip stuck with me to this day. Prior to that trip (and subsequent independent reading)I was not really aware of Ruby ridge. After visit to Waco I did some further reading (some of us remember libraries annd microfiche) and then learned of ruby ridge which if I recall happened the year prior…I don’t remember the dates but I was not aware when it did in fact happen despite being alive…I read about after then fact.

Anyway, those two events began to teach me that there are two men I could trust. One was my the dad and the other is not anyone else except myself.

take that for what it’s worth. That was my red pill. (I believe there is a common thread in both those events)

digest however you want. After my dad passed (and I miss him dearly), there is just the one man in this world I can trust.

there is nothing (major regional/local event that has been publicized) since that time that has changed my opinion about who you can trust.

take that for what it’s worth.

 

[MOOTS]

My comments are not intended to make this political or go down a deep rabbit hole.

As a young man (old enough to drive legally) I drove my dad’s van (with my family) on a family trip from my extended families ranch in TX to Waco to see the remnants of the compound and visit the Texas Ranger museum (that was F N awesome) and the Hall of horns which I was given tokens at the brewery/hospitality room and able to get beer in public regardless of not being able to wear out a razor yet. Regarding the compound and what I had heard and seen on TV before the trip, A lot of things simply did not add up no matter how you looked at the leftovers. At that time I learned the value of travel. When you travel no one can tell you what you did or did not see or learn from locals. That trip stuck with me to this day. Prior to that trip (and subsequent independent reading)I was not really aware of Ruby ridge. After visit to Waco I did some further reading (some of us remember libraries annd microfiche) and then learned of ruby ridge which if I recall happened the year prior…I don’t remember the dates but I was not aware when it did in fact happen despite being alive…I read about after then fact.

Anyway, those two events began to teach me that there are two men I could trust. One was my the dad and the other is not anyone else except myself.

take that for what it’s worth. That was my red pill. (I believe there is a common thread in both those events)

digest however you want. After my dad passed (and I miss him dearly), there is just the one man in this world I can trust.

there is nothing (major regional/local event that has been publicized) since that time that has changed my opinion about who you can trust.

take that for what it’s worth.

We’re from the government and here to help.

I was 10 and can remember the news footage of ruby ridge and the fires in Waco the next year. Wild.

 

[GrumpyFarmer]

We’re from the government and here to help.

I was 10 and can remember the news footage of ruby ridge and the fires in Waco the next year. Wild.

Sorry about changing my emoji…I was laughing at first statement not the second(which was added in the edit). What happened there was aweful.

 

[McMXi]

LE told me its 10 years. This was 3-4 years ago though. Might have changed.

Yes, it's 10 years.

 

[McMXi]

First thing that popped into my mine was "Wonder how McMXi determined he was actually talking to the ATF?"

Guess in today's world I learned to be suspicious of every phone caller that I don't know...

I never answer my phone unless I recognize the number (needs to be in my contacts). Most scammers won't leave a phone message. I listened to the one that was left and then called the number and it was the ATF firearms tracing department with a number of options to go through for FFL holders as well as law enforcement options.

I don't subscribe to the "everything is a conspiracy" mindset. I've had nothing but a good experience dealing with the ATF over the past 12 years. I'm curious though as to what happened to the rifle to initiate a trace. Suicide seems unlikely, murder too, so my guess is that it was stolen and then showed up in the possession of some undesirable.

Some states have laws that require private citizens to report stolen firearms within in a specific time period. Those states typically have a registration process/requirement for firearms, but Montana does not. There is no federal law requiring a private citizen to report the loss or theft either, but since there is often a paper trail in effect, it seems like a good idea to inform the local police department in the event of a theft, if for no other reason than to distance oneself from a criminal act involving the stolen firearm.

 

[GeoHorn]

McMXI, …chances are someone under-age has been caught with it….(could be stolen as you suggest, but the kid is claiming he didn’t steal it….that it was given or sold to him directly)….. and the last record BATF had of that Serial was YOU…. They wanted to know if you sold or gave it to the accused.
You had a record of transferring it legally…. so BATF is no longer interested in following an un-recorded trail of private ownership. They’ll have to do some detective work if they want to know who supplied it.

 

[McMXi]

and the last record BATF had of that Serial was YOU…. They wanted to know if you sold or gave it to the accused.
You had a record of transferring it legally…. so BATF is no longer interested in following an un-recorded trail of private ownership. They’ll have to do some detective work if they want to know who supplied it.

The ATF contacts the manufacturer first since their name is on the firearm along with their serial number. I've worked for firearms companies for almost 15 years and calls from the ATF asking for the disposition of a firearm are fairly common. The next POC would be the dealer/FFL holder to whom the firearm was shipped. S&W shipped the firearms directly to me as an FFL holder and that disposition is in their A&D logs. That's the order of contact. Manufacturer > dealer > dealer sale/transfer > private party sale/transfer, and it can get a lot harder in states with no registration process since there's no paper trail and the chain of custody will go cold in a hurry.

The ridiculous part is that the NTN (NICS transaction number) that is issued with every NICS check for a 4473 form meant nothing to the ATF. That was my first question to them. I asked them why they needed me to provide the name, address, ID #, height and weight on the 4473 when all they had to do was reference the NTN which I provided. Perhaps the ATF do a data dump at the 10 year mark too.

14 is the legal age for rifle ownership in Montana so the underage option is possible but unlikely. I'm thinking that the rifle was in the possession of a felon, or was found at the location of an arrest or crime of some sort. I might never know the reason why a trace was initiated, particularly if my friend's friend didn't report the rifle stolen. I'll report back if I have any more information as to the why.

 

[GreensvilleJay]

I no longer give ANY info over the phone,too easy for the pro scammers to steal your identity. If anyone wants 'information' , I say 'Can meet at the local police station ?'
In the op's case , everything IS on record somewhere, so get THEM to tell you WHAT record 'form' they're looking at. A lot of scammers will have 8 out of 10 pieces of the puzzle,sound very legit, so when you give them the final 2, 3 days later your bank accounts now zero.....OR you have a 100k$ line of credit all used up !!