FEL Bucket tilt Drifts down over 2hrs

[Vlach7]

 

[RodRocket]

A lot of people do not understand the importance of good rod wipers on hydraulic cylinders. The two major areas contamination enters a hydraulic system are the air breather and the cylinder rod seals. This is basically due to vacuum or below-atmospheric conditions "sucking" in dirty air.
Firstly the rod seals.
Hydraulic seals are rather hard and designed to withstand and not to extrude at 3000+psi. As such, they are not soft/delicate enough or shaped to seal air. Next time, feel and look at the difference between oil/hydraulic and pneumatic seals.
So, this means rod seals do a better at job keeping oil in than they do keeping air out.
Now consider what happens when rod wipers, designed to wipe the rods clean of dirt (as the front line of defence) wear out or get damaged.
Yes. Due to the dirt, rod seals start to wear too, and not being good at sealing air, allow dirty air to enter the hydraulic system when, say, a loader arm drops faster than the oil from the pump can get into the rod end of the cylinder, which creates a "vacuum" or below-atmospheric condition.
Worn rod wipers and seals occurs much faster when rods are dinged/damaged or have rust spots. Both act like a rasp. Imagine.
Air breathers.
Basically breathers are designed to allow clean air to move in and out of a reservoir.
Every time a hydraulic cylinder extends, more oil is pumped out than what returns to the reservoir. The oil level then drops and air is "sucked" in the take up the space, via the breather. If the breather is in a good condition and filtering well, then so will be the air passing through. If the breather a not not filtering the entering air, then guess what, dirty oil. This is the biggest no-no in hydraulics, and the biggest wear-wear to your valuable equipment, and the biggest $-$ to repair.
But, I should add something else here.
Imagine working all day, the hydraulic oil gets hot and oil vapor partly fills the air-space in the reservoir.
At the end of the day, the oil cools down and gets cold and the oil vapor condenses. The air space in the reservoir reduces in pressure and with the higher air pressure outside, air is drawn in ,"sucked in" via the breather, as a "vacuum" or below-atmospheric condition.
This is may not be a big issue in summer or moderate temperatures, but likely is in winter when the hydraulic systems experiences extremes of temperature and humidity.
So to continue, basically the air being drawn in is relatively moist. As the system cools down and down, the moist air cools too and eventually the moisture condenses and turns to water. The water either makes the oil milky or it falls to the bottom of the reservoir, and forms rust.
So if you are wondering how water gets in the oil, this can be one way.

 

[Vlach7]

Thanks Rod Rocket, checked Messicks price for the cylinder rebuild o-ring kit $250, Price for a new Spool/Control valve $3500. I guess a slow drop of the bucket is OK for now till it gets worse.

 

[Old_Paint]

Standing in an elevated bucket is testing Darwin's Theory of Selectivity. Darwin was right, and he wasn't necessarily talking about the strongest creature being dominant. He was talking about the smartest outliving the strongest with intelligence.

Like @GreensvilleJay said, if you need a ladder, I'll loan you mine free of charge. A front-end loader bucket is NOT a man-lift and never should be used as one. Some will argue that, but a working platform for occupancy is why MAN-LIFTS were designed. Your favorite equipment rental dealer will have what you need and probably even drop off and pick up if that's what you want. If you want a man-lift, get a man-lift.
...

Got a couple corrections to make, thanks to @D2Cat pointing out my poor cipherin' and gazintas, and reminding me that I'm getting too old to rely on my memory, too. My dad was born in 1936. He fell from the scaffolding in 1970, at age 34. It was 1992 (age 56) when he passed away, making his time in the VAMC hospitals 22 years, not 26. His fall was 52 years ago and he passed away 30 years ago this June, so forgive my error. The 50 should be a 60, as he was 56 when he passed away in 1992. That was just a fat-finger boo boo. My time on this planet has been 8 years longer than he had, not 14 as would have been were he 50 instead of 56. He would have been 86 a week ago, and I'd venture to say still among the living considering most of that side of the family lived well into their 90's.

I should have checked my dates (being the self-appointed family historian) before posting that, but the fall and his torment after were far more prevalent than the dates. The point is, he had a long miserable existence that was pretty much equivalent to a 22 year prison sentence, simply because of a fall from 6 feet.

Are you sure you want to stand in that bucket with no fall protection? Do as you like, but I can only encourage change in behavior when I see a safety risk that's too easily avoided. #1 rule in hazard mitigation is eliminate the hazard if at all possible. Not standing in the bucket eliminates the hazard of falling out of it. Using a proper man lift to accomplish the elevated task is the next best thing to not doing the elevated task. Getting someone else who owns proper equipment to do it is an option, too. Most of us appear to be at or near retirement age and now own tractors because we need a hobby. We shouldn't let our toys be the death of us. Let old age do its thing.

 

[RodRocket]

The debate on the matter of the bucket tilt drifting down has probably run its course, but there is a principle that needs to be iterated.
A double acting cylinder filled both ends with oil and with both ports closed off, either at the cylinder itself or with disconnected quick couplings, can not retract. Even with the piston seals removed.
Just like a simple car bottle jack, it is the shaft that becomes the "piston".
Yes, there would be slight retraction due the very small compressibility of the oil, but that is it.
Now, extension of the cylinder with the ports blocked, well that is a different matter.

 

[TheOldHokie]

The debate on the matter of the bucket tilt drifting down has probably run its course, but there is a principle that needs to be iterated.
A double acting cylinder filled both ends with oil and with both ports closed off, either at the cylinder itself or with disconnected quick couplings, can not retract. Even with the piston seals removed.
Just like a simple car bottle jack, it is the shaft that becomes the "piston".
Yes, there would be slight retraction due the very small compressibility of the oil, but that is it.
Now, extension of the cylinder with the ports blocked, well that is a different matter.

Its been "iterated" at length but its always worth another trip through the loop. Like many myths the leaky piston seal idea dies hard.

Leaky backhoe, normal?

I’m with weak cylinder/seals if your not visually seeing oil leaks. It should hold its pressure I think. Doesn’t sound normal to me. I’m sure you’ll find the issue sooner then later holding the hydraulic curl pressure like that. Until you get it fixed or solved I’d just tap the curl every...

www.orangetractortalks.com

Dan

 

[Donystoy]

Interestingly there is no drift in my 3 point hitch. This winter I used my tiller as counter weight on the tractor. I parked it a month ago with the tiller raised. It has not moved at all as the half inch of slack in the safety chain is still there.

 

[BruceP]

deleted.... incorrect information

 

[Henro]

You are mistaken... if the seal ON THE PISTON were to leak, the piston can move as the fluid passes from one end of the cylinder to the other. The total amount of fluid within the ENTIRE cylinder does not change.

Infact, piston-seal-failure may be the more common failure-mode than spools which often have a ball check-valve to help prevent backflow.

Think about your statement.

If the rod enters the cylinder, like you say the volume of oil does not change, but the space for the oil within the cylinder would have to change when the rod enters it.

Since there is no place in the example being discussed for the oil to go, the rod cannot enter the cylinder even if the seal on the piston would be missing entirely.

On the other hand, a bad piston seal would allow the cylinder rod to extend after a certain amount of pull is exceeded.

 

[TheOldHokie]

You are mistaken... if the seal ON THE PISTON were to leak, the piston can move as the fluid passes from one end of the cylinder to the other. The total amount of fluid within the ENTIRE cylinder does not change.

Infact, piston-seal-failure may be the more common failure-mode than spools which often have a ball check-valve to help prevent backflow.

You are mistaken on both counts.

1) As the rod moves inward the volume of oil in the cylinder decreases. As the rod moves outward the volume of oil in the cylinder increases. Simple geometry.

2) Directional control valves have load checks which do nothing to prevent spool leakage when the valve is in neutral.

Dan

 

[TheOldHokie]

Interestingly there is no drift in my 3 point hitch. This winter I used my tiller as counter weight on the tractor. I parked it a month ago with the tiller raised. It has not moved at all as the half inch of slack in the safety chain is still there.

My new L3901 has held for a week. Thats the longest I have ever forgotten to lower it.

Dan

 

[BruceP]

I stand corrected I did not consider that the ROD itself displaces fluid.

I concede that there would have to be both piston-seal leak AND external leak (rod seal) for a sealed cylinder (ports closed off) to allow the rod to move.

I have deleted my posting so noone is misled .

 

[TheOldHokie]

I stand corrected I did not consider that the ROD itself displaces fluid.

I concede that there would have to be both piston-seal leak AND external leak (rod seal) for a sealed cylinder (ports closed off) to allow the rod to move.

I have deleted my posting so noone is misled .

Almost there. The rod cannot move inward but it can move outward. In that case the resulting increase in volume pulls a vacuum.

Dan

 

[fried1765]

re:
Not good when you are working elevated in the bucket with supplies, painting, tree trimming, ect
This is a really ,really BAD practice, unless your life insurance is paid up.

Young framer here(early 30s), fell off a 7' roof(think garden shed)...will never work again in the trade..destroyed his right foot/ankle bones. 'freak' accident..he's got 40+ years of pain and sufferin ahead.
Now have we done what you said, probably, but why take the chance. If you need a 20' ladder, you can have any of 3 I have,for free.

Probably a bit too far to drive for most,........ all the way to Canada, for a "free ladder"?
Need a current passport also!

 

[PoTreeBoy]

Interestingly there is no drift in my 3 point hitch. This winter I used my tiller as counter weight on the tractor. I parked it a month ago with the tiller raised. It has not moved at all as the half inch of slack in the safety chain is still there.

Lecture time for Donystoy
It's really not good to leave implements raised.
There have been instances of damage and even death to pets from implements settling down. Or from inadvertently moving a control lever while the tractor is off.
Most 3PH's have feedback control. If the implement settles, the 3PH will raise it to the height set by the control lever as soon as the engine turns over, whether you're prepared for it or not.

 

[Henro]

Most 3PH's have feedback control. If the implement settles, the 3PH will raise it to the height set by the control lever as soon as the engine turns over, whether you're prepared for it or not.

Also happens if you do not notice you somehow unintentionally moved the 3PH lever while the tractor was off, at least if you have position control. Personal experience speaking. Fortunately nothing bad happened.

Forget if I push the lever off center on the BX , which has quarter-inching control I think, if it will stay off center while the tractor is off. But I think it might, and that the 3PH would move in that case too. I will have to check next time I am at the tractor.

 

[Henro]

Most 3PH's have feedback control. If the implement settles, the 3PH will raise it to the height set by the control lever as soon as the engine turns over, whether you're prepared for it or not.

Also happens if you do not notice you somehow unintentionally moved the 3PH lever while the tractor was off, at least if you have position control. Personal experience speaking. Fortunately nothing bad happened.

Forget if I push the lever off center on the BX , which has quarter-inching control I think, if it will stay off center while the tractor is off. But I think it might, and that the 3PH would move in that case too. I will have to check next time I am at the tractor.

 

[Donystoy]

Lecture time for Donystoy
It's really not good to leave implements raised.
There have been instances of damage and even death to pets from implements settling down. Or from inadvertently moving a control lever while the tractor is off.
Most 3PH's have feedback control. If the implement settles, the 3PH will raise it to the height set by the control lever as soon as the engine turns over, whether you're prepared for it or not.

As I said in the above note the safety chains were attached so tiller can go nowhere unless the chain breaks. I know very well never to leave anything raised and unsupported. In this case it is supported. If I lower the control lever it will only drop a half inch to take up the slack in the chain.

 

[PoTreeBoy]

As I said in the above note the safety chains were attached so tiller can go nowhere unless the chain breaks. I know very well never to leave anything raised and unsupported. In this case it is supported. If I lower the control lever it will only drop a half inch to take up the slack in the chain.

Sorry, I missed the safety chain mention

 

[Vlach7]

Up-date, FINALLY got the hydraulic plugs and caps needed to isolate my curl rams. They slowly dropped telling me it was both rams needing rebuilds. Better then the spools/valves.
I rebuilt a couple on my old JD backhoe, anybody have recommended rebuild video for the rams on my Kubota.

Yes, Safety Police it's in the barn, maybe on top of my barn cats now.

Thanks to all with the constructive advice.