Extra electrical circuit

awesome

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I'm reading a few post around here about work lights and exrra dedicated circuit. I'd like to see if what I'm summing up from all this is right.

Basically, I'm adding a motor and actuator to my snowblower. This guys pull a lot of amps, specially when the motor is blocked because of the end of rotation. So I need a 15A circuit. I've used the aux connection for my work lights already. So here's what I'm thinking of doing:

I'll run a AWG10 wire directly from the battery, fused of course, to the back of the tractor. And for ground, I'll just run a short wire to one of the bolts on the frame in the back. I checked the resistance from a black wire to said bolt and I get like 0.6Ohms. does that sound right? I understand the circuit will be independent of the ignition switch and I know how I can fix that with a relay, but I just dont feel like it.
 

BruceP

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G5200H
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Richmond, Vermont, USA
I agree with fused 10AWG right off the battery.

However...DO NOT rely on the frame to conduct the current. Instead, use another 10AWG up towards the engine. Locate where the negative from battery ties to the engine-case and connect it at that same point. In this way, the alternator can supply the current without having to rely on bolt-threads in the framerails to carry current.

BTW: Measuring a circuit with ohmmeter DOES NOT tell you how much current it can carry. The proper measurement is "voltage drop" with voltmeter while the current is flowing.

Also, when using ohmmeter, first connect the meter-leads together to determine the resistance of the leads.... then subtract that reading from all other measurements.

Technical stuff:
Relying the the frame to carry the current can have unintended consequences. If the current happens to flow thru a bearing in the engine or xMission ... bad things can happen.
 
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Old_Paint

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That much resistance is more than I would prefer. NO idea how old your equipment is nor how well maintained, but most in here take better care of their tractors than they do of themselves, so I'll assume you have as well.

Check from the battery Negative (-) post to the point at which that cable attaches to the tractor frame. Should be fairly close to the battery. If it's close to the same 0.60 ohms, I'd try cleaning the connection at the battery and at the other end of the cable, then check both frame points again. That all said, though, if you're not having any starting issues, it could be anything between the ground connection at the frame and the bolt you selected for your grounding point.
 

awesome

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@BruceP That's new information to me. Are you sure about that? The way I see it (but I could be wrong because I am no expert in the subject) is that if I get 0 resistance between ground and another piece of metal, it means that this piece of metal is effectively ground. No?
 

awesome

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That much resistance is more than I would prefer. NO idea how old your equipment is nor how well maintained, but most in here take better care of their tractors than they do of themselves, so I'll assume you have as well.

Check from the battery Negative (-) post to the point at which that cable attaches to the tractor frame. Should be fairly close to the battery. If it's close to the same 0.60 ohms, I'd try cleaning the connection at the battery and at the other end of the cable, then check both frame points again. That all said, though, if you're not having any starting issues, it could be anything between the ground connection at the frame and the bolt you selected for your grounding point.
To be fair, I was testing on the bolt while it was dirty. If I do this, I will first clean off and grind all metal parts I'm planning on connecting to.
 

BruceP

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@BruceP That's new information to me. Are you sure about that? The way I see it (but I could be wrong because I am no expert in the subject) is that if I get 0 resistance between ground and another piece of metal, it means that this piece of metal is effectively ground. No?
Yes, I am certain.... I have degree in electronics and have been troubleshooting/repairing equipment for over 50 years.

An ohmmeter uses VERY small current to measure resistance. This IS NOT a good indicator of current-carrying capability.

Many many times, I have troubleshot 'bad connections' which an ohmmeter showed low resistance... but when current was flowing there was a large voltage drop. This is explained by OHMS LAW. (more current = more voltage drop)

  • I have seen tight bolts NOT be able to carry current due to corrosion on the threads.
  • I have seen differential-bearings fried because all the current from the alternator was passing thru it. (broken ground on engine-case)
  • I have seen the charge-voltage at the battery be 16volts because the regulator ground was 2v above battery-ground. (relying on the frame to carry current... the regulator was working fine, it just had a bad reference.)
  • Many head-gasket failures can be traced to poor grounding forcing the ignition (spark) energy to flow thru the headbolt-threads. This results in arcing THROUGH the head-gasket.
There is a reason that equipment-makers NEVER rely on frame to conduct current.
 
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awesome

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Yes, I am certain.... I have degree in electronics and have been troubleshooting/repairing equipment for over 50 years.

An ohmmeter uses VERY small current to measure resistance. This IS NOT a good indicator of current-carrying capability.

Many many times, I have troubleshot 'bad connections' which an ohmmeter showed low resistance... but when current was flowing there was a large voltage drop. This is explained by OHMS LAW. (more current = more voltage drop)
Ok I trust you :)
I'll run a wire to the connection point where the negative battery wire hooks up to the frame. I can't find where the lights ground connection is, I was hoping to go there.
 

B737

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I just used the cigarette lighter plug for the two motor actuators on rear snow blower on B2601. wouldnt over think it.
 

awesome

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I just used the cigarette lighter plug for the two motor actuators on rear snow blower on B2601. wouldnt over think it.
Yeah but like I said, I already used that circuit for my work lights. I think it sucks they only put 5A for the real work lIght circuit. My bx had 10A.
 

B737

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I'm sorry I missed that part...
maybe move work lights to its own Circuit that is relayed, then use the cigarette lighter for the snowblower motors

 

torch

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Instead of a 15 amp fuse, consider a self-resetting automotive circuit breaker. You can size both fuse and wire closer to what you really need instead of the stall current the motor draws hitting the end of the travel.
 

JimmyJazz

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Yes, I am certain.... I have degree in electronics and have been troubleshooting/repairing equipment for over 50 years.

An ohmmeter uses VERY small current to measure resistance. This IS NOT a good indicator of current-carrying capability.

Many many times, I have troubleshot 'bad connections' which an ohmmeter showed low resistance... but when current was flowing there was a large voltage drop. This is explained by OHMS LAW. (more current = more voltage drop)

  • I have seen tight bolts NOT be able to carry current due to corrosion on the threads.
  • I have seen differential-bearings fried because all the current from the alternator was passing thru it. (broken ground on engine-case)
  • I have seen the charge-voltage at the battery be 16volts because the regulator ground was 2v above battery-ground. (relying on the frame to carry current... the regulator was working fine, it just had a bad reference.)
  • Many head-gasket failures can be traced to poor grounding forcing the ignition (spark) energy to flow thru the headbolt-threads. This results in arcing THROUGH the head-gasket.
There is a reason that equipment-makers NEVER rely on frame to conduct current.
You are the person I have been looking for. I have questions for you. I have 6 batteries . Tractor,
motorcycle, truck types. that I keep on a maintenance charger of some type. Currently I have 4 chargers that I payed $8 each for from Harbor Freight in rotation. My question(s); Is there a specific type or brand that you could recommend that might be better than what I am using? Also, any tips like can I over charge or hurt the batteries by leaving them charging too long? Thanks.
 

Old_Paint

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Yes, I am certain.... I have degree in electronics and have been troubleshooting/repairing equipment for over 50 years.

An ohmmeter uses VERY small current to measure resistance. This IS NOT a good indicator of current-carrying capability.

Many many times, I have troubleshot 'bad connections' which an ohmmeter showed low resistance... but when current was flowing there was a large voltage drop. This is explained by OHMS LAW. (more current = more voltage drop)

  • I have seen tight bolts NOT be able to carry current due to corrosion on the threads.
  • I have seen differential-bearings fried because all the current from the alternator was passing thru it. (broken ground on engine-case)
  • I have seen the charge-voltage at the battery be 16volts because the regulator ground was 2v above battery-ground. (relying on the frame to carry current... the regulator was working fine, it just had a bad reference.)
  • Many head-gasket failures can be traced to poor grounding forcing the ignition (spark) energy to flow thru the headbolt-threads. This results in arcing THROUGH the head-gasket.
There is a reason that equipment-makers NEVER rely on frame to conduct current.
You're almost correct, however, the automotive industry has been using the frame/body for the ground for a very long time. Pretty much since batteries started appearing in cars. It's more cost effective, which is the primary reason for most anything designed for cars. It makes more sense than running two wires when there's no way that battery can put enough current out to melt a transmission housing. The mass of metal in the frame and drive train of cars, trucks, tractors, etc is the primary reason it's used that way. What other metals lack in conductivity versus copper is more than offset by conductor size in terms of Cross Sectional Area, which is exactly what wire size indicates.

What was actually happening in your bad connection anecdotes was that the cold connection would carry the small current of the Ohmmeter just fine. Once it heated up because of higher current flow through a bad connection (resistance), though, the resistance goes up. More resistance, more voltage drop, more watts dissipated at the bad connection, meaning more heat, more resistance, etc, etc. The resistance goes up exponentially with temperature, with voltage drop following it. I've used an infrared camera to find bad connections in bus bar that's 3/4 inch thick and 8 inches wide in outdoor substations. They heat up and tell on themselves. Even a slight temperature rise over other connections indicates a problem.

The Ohmmeter reading was VERY correct for the current it was putting through the connection, but it doesn't quite tell all the story. If you're measuring [expected] low resistances intended to carry large currents, an inexpensive ohmmeter may not be your best choice. A Low Resistance Ohmmeter (also know as a Conduction meter or Mhometer) uses a much higher (10A or 100A) current source (only millivolt output at max current) and voltage drop (as you said) across the connection, and measures resistance in milliOhms, the inverse of which is Mhos (1/R) (yes, Ohm spelled backward) or the European unit, Siemens. These instruments are used in medium and low voltage circuit breaker maintenance. I have 2 in my truck as we speak, both digital units. They're also used for Earth Resistance testing in substation construction and a host of other applications where lower resistance is better. Anything that conducts high current needs low resistance to prevent heat.

I've been a field engineer in (electrical) industrial services for 40+ years with most of that in power delivery equipment maintenance and control. We have many strange instruments that most electronic engineers and technicians rarely have occasion to use for testing high currents (up to 80KA), high Voltage (up to 150 KV), high resistance (TeraOhms), and Low Resistance (MicroOhms). We generally were looking for extremes in whatever direction was the best for the application or test we were performing.

I also owned a VW Beetle for 35 years. The ONLY connection to the battery on the grounded post is the uninsulated braided grounding strap that goes straight to the belly pan. There are NO other wires on that post. VW did that starting in 1937, and never saw fit to change it even until the air-cooled VW was no longer manufactured. It works, if a clean connection is established and maintained. Every light fixture or electric device on the car had a short ground (usually brown insulation) just long enough to get to the body somewhere. I probably held at least one end of EVERY wire in that car by the time I sold it. Before 1965, VW's with 6V systems used a Positive Ground (put the battery in backward). Many an aftermarket car stereo was smoked by folks that didn't know that. The voltage regulator didn't fare well either if the ignition was turned on with the wrong connections. I just pushed our '64 to start it more often than I started it with the starter.
 

i7win7

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I installed wire that can handle 80 amps, then fused it at 60A. The winch came with 50A fuse. This heavy duty setup provides many options.



 
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awesome

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@torch : a self resetting circuit breaker? That sounds interesting. Because my motor does work perfectly on the 5A light circuit but the fuses blow once the motor hits the resistance of the end of rotation of the chute. I've temporarily changed the fuse for a 7.5A (I know... Bad. It's just to test my motor) and that works flawlessly. So if I had a fuse that self resets, that would be perfect. I'll read up on that because I never heard of this.

@Old_Paint and @BruceP : on my b2601 the negative lead of the battery is connected on the frame and nothing else is tied to that point. I never found where the grounds are connected but I suspect they are connected to the frame because nothing else ia connected to the negative lead of the battery. It might be that what they chose to tiw the grounda to is a specific point on the frame that they trully trust, whereas the point I'm looking to connect my wire is not guaranteed to always be safe.
 

Old_Paint

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@torch : a self resetting circuit breaker? That sounds interesting. Because my motor does work perfectly on the 5A light circuit but the fuses blow once the motor hits the resistance of the end of rotation of the chute. I've temporarily changed the fuse for a 7.5A (I know... Bad. It's just to test my motor) and that works flawlessly. So if I had a fuse that self resets, that would be perfect. I'll read up on that because I never heard of this.

@Old_Paint and @BruceP : on my b2601 the negative lead of the battery is connected on the frame and nothing else is tied to that point. I never found where the grounds are connected but I suspect they are connected to the frame because nothing else ia connected to the negative lead of the battery. It might be that what they chose to tiw the grounda to is a specific point on the frame that they trully trust, whereas the point I'm looking to connect my wire is not guaranteed to always be safe.
Go to one of the tail lights and trace the wiring from that back toward the console. Everything is usually color coded, so it shouldn't be hard. Get the electrical diagrams for your tractor, and you'll find that generally has the wire colors on it for each device/connection. The Ground or Negative wire on everything is usually the same color throughout the machine. I noticed on my LX2601 that it has two wires in the auxiliary power circuit (work-light circuit some call it). That sort of suggests it goes back to a common grounding point, but I really haven't spent any time on more meticulous mods. I added a ROPS mounted ammo can tool box for a few tools and my pins, and that's about it. Having a FEL dictates that I put some work lights on it, but other more pressing projects keep me busy.
 

BruceP

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My 1980's era Kubota DOES NOT use frame to conduct current. (Yes, the battery minus is tied to the frame.... but EVERY sensor or light has its own ground)

Let me be clear... Machine manufacturers USED to use the frame to conduct current. This was a way to save costs by eliminating 1/2 of the copper in the machine. It was discovered that this practice led to all kinds of goofy electrical problems especially as the machines age.

Then, they got electronics engineers involved to design the electrical circuits....

All modern equipment DOES NOT share the frame/body of the machine with electrical circuits. In some cases an ENGINE sensor may have a single wire (using the engine-case as conductor)


---------------
A more technical reason to not use frame to conduct current is voltage-loss. Lets not forget (more current = more voltage drop). When many circuits are sharing the frame as a conductor, this means ALL the circuits will experience the same, shared, voltage-drop. Anyone who has driven an old car and had the headlights dim every time a turn-signal flashed has experienced this phenomena.

Additionally, anytime current flows, there is galvanic action. (corrosion) Using frame to conduct current also means EVERY joint in the frame will corrode faster.
 
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awesome

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My 1980's era Kubota DOES NOT use frame to conduct current. (Yes, the battery minus is tied to the frame.... but EVERY sensor or light has its own ground)

Let me be clear... Machine manufacturers USED to use the frame to conduct current. This was a way to save costs by eliminating 1/2 of the copper in the machine. It was discovered that this practice led to all kinds of goofy electrical problems especially as the machines age.

Then, they got electronics engineers involved to design the electrical circuits....

All modern equipment DOES NOT share the frame/body of the machine with electrical circuits. In some cases an ENGINE sensor may have a single wire (using the engine-case as conductor)


---------------
A more technical reason to not use frame to conduct current is voltage-loss. Lets not forget (more current = more voltage drop). When many circuits are sharing the frame as a conductor, this means ALL the circuits will experience the same, shared, voltage-drop. Anyone who has driven an old car and had the headlights dim every time a turn-signal flashed has experienced this phenomena.

Additionally, anytime current flows, there is galvanic action. (corrosion) Using frame to conduct current also means EVERY joint in the frame will corrode faster.
I'll open up the console. I suspect that all grounds lead there and are then connected to the frame since the battery connection is on the frame with no other wires. So if I run a dedicated ground for my new circuit, should I connect it on the frame in the console where all other grounda lead? Or should I take it directly to the battery?

Also, instead of connecting to the battery, would the dynamo be ok? I'm asking because the connection there is easier to do.
 

B737

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I ran a dedicated ground wire to frame ground by the starter, the photo is in my B2601 lighting thread. lemme see if i can find it.

The ground for the lighting feed went there, as well as the relay.

 
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awesome

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I ran a dedicated ground wire to frame ground by the starter, the photo is in my B2601 lighting thread. lemme see if i can find it.

The ground for the lighting feed went there, as well as the relay.

Beautiful. I plan on wiring the live on the starter also since it has a nice connection point.
 
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