Engine knock dealer says new motor

[GreensvilleJay]

For a Kubota shop(really any ) to rebuild an engine in house ,some of the required equipment
dunk tank/cleaning /drying station with venting
magnaflux machine, engine stand
crankshaft lathe and tooling, and really good lighting
cylinder head milling machine and tooling, more lighting
sleeve removal/insertion tools
weigh scale
fuel injector rebuild/test equipment
fuel injection pump rebuild/test equipment
engine test stand and monitoring equipment with venting of course
at least 2 work stations with tools(mechanics don't share !)
some form of crane or room for forklift to lift the heavy stuff...
partitions to make it a reasonably 'clean' room
some kind of computer work station to access manuals/howto/etc online.

that's just some of the major 'must haves' to rebuild engines

 

[lugbolt]

Dealers don't like to rebuild engines. Why? Many reasons. BTW, dealer techs ARE trained (if they attended the training) in engine repairs (internal and external). Kubota's training is pretty good but it's not perfect.

First, look at the amount of time it takes to do an overhaul. If a tech spends 40 hours on a rebuild at $120/hr, that labor in itself is $4800. Then lots and lots of parts. Including the dpf. Then sublet labor (machining, etc). I've actually done a few (very few) and if the engine was, say, $6500 brand new with a 1 year warranty, and the rebuild cost was $7000 with a 90 day warranty which do you think the customer is going to prefer? Can a tech do an overhaul in less than 40 hours? You'd think so, but honestly if you haven't done one (starts from the time they tow the tractor to the shop to the time the last wrench is put up and the floor swept up), that's probably going to be pretty close assuming they also have to R&R the engine. I've lost my backside a few times on engine overhauls. Secondly when you get into engines, there are a few things that can go wrong. For instance on some of them, let's say I pull the engine, completely tear it down, send it out for machining, then I reassemble with new parts. Then, after the customer gets it back it develops an oil leak at the back of the crank seal, now I have to pull the engine back off and repair the leak. And the customer obviously wants it done for FREE. They always do even if it's got 5 years' and 5000 hours' use on it. Dealer loses. Or if customer is not upset, but not happy, he'll tell his family members and friends that dealer rebuilt it but they had to pull the engine back off to repair a main leak, and now the dealer is the bad guy again. Or when they do get it back from the first repair, the owner says "they charged me $11,000 for an engine rebuild"....and their buddies standing around the campfire say "I had a new engine put in my truck for half that"....again, dealer is the bad guy. So dealers tend to take the path of least resistance for them AND for the consumer (usually).

Not to mention the cost of the tools. You can rack up a hundred grand in tools quickly, and they never really get paid for by doing repair jobs.

On outside rebuilders, their warranty pretty much sucks. They oft use component warranty and that's how they advertise it. Advertised "1 year warranty", and that 1 year applies to a particular component that carries the one year warranty, it might be a bolt or maybe a wire. They have to do it that way to compete, and to protect themselves.

Kubota engines are 1 year warranty if installed by an authorized dealer. That is the best option if a tractor needs an engine replacement.

Call some other dealers and ask them how much to rebuild it including removal and replacement. I bet the cost will be up close to or exceed the cost of a new engine with a good warranty. Last L01 I priced came out to shy of $17,000 to rebuild including replacement of the dpf and all labor. That was about 2 years ago. That one needed a crankshaft and block though. Needless to say I didn't get to do it; his insurance company actually totaled the tractor and he got a new one. Cost him $1000. If he had KTAC it would have been $250 and less headache.

 

[GeoHorn]

The only time an engine has to be destroyed is when you are replacing a pre-tier 4 engine…..

That is misleading. The only time a removed engine must be “destroyed” is if participating in an emissions up-grade program and the owner desires reimbursement or payment for the upgrade.

Mobile Agricultural Off-Road Diesel Engines (Code 372) | NRCS California

 

[lugbolt]

That is misleading. The only time a removed engine must be “destroyed” is if participating in an emissions up-grade program and the owner desires reimbursement or payment for the upgrade.

Mobile Agricultural Off-Road Diesel Engines (Code 372) | NRCS California

Did it change from the Kubota bulletin issued about 6 or so years ago? Curious. Every time we ordered an engine, we had to document the old engine's destruction (with kubota) regardless of what tier it was. If it was over I think 30hp, it had to be done, it was the only way we could order an engine.

So with that, came a huge deal. M7040SUHD. I had to replace engine. This was a last gen M7040SUHD, engine, interim tier 4. Meaning, there weren't that many of them out there, and at the time the parts books were wrong. Orderd part number, drilled a big hole through the block of the old one. New engine came in, wrong engine. Found out parts guy ordered the wrong one. Oops, send it back. Order another part number, shows up, again wrong. Kubota screwed up on that one. Tried to have them send us the right one, they said you have to destroy the one first (brand new engine, still on a crate and in plastic). Whaaaaat? Yep that's how stupid this stuff was, but we were all new at it, at that time, including the guys at kubota. 2 more engines later we finally got the right one, but I had to actually call the corporate office and get an engineering number, which the japanese translated to an american part number, which was totally different than the other ones. Stupid. Divisonal service manager was able to get the parts guys to ship them back and send the correct one without drilling the blocks of the returned engines but parts guys were saying "that's procedure". LOL what a mess that was!!

 

[DustyRusty]

If I were buying a new engine and paying their book price for it, then I still own the old engine and can do what I want with it. Let's say that the tractor was stolen and recovered, and they took only the engine. Does that mean that I couldn't buy a new engine for the tractor because I wouldn't have an old one to destroy?

 

[whitetiger]

That is misleading. The only time a removed engine must be “destroyed” is if participating in an emissions up-grade program and the owner desires reimbursement or payment for the upgrade.

Mobile Agricultural Off-Road Diesel Engines (Code 372) | NRCS California

That is miss leading, it is for the state of California only.

 

[whitetiger]

If I were buying a new engine and paying their book price for it, then I still own the old engine and can do what I want with it. Let's say that the tractor was stolen and recovered, and they took only the engine. Does that mean that I couldn't buy a new engine for the tractor because I wouldn't have an old one to destroy?

That is a question for the United States of America federal government's EPA.

 

[GreensvilleJay]

I know that in CA, there were TWo , real nice big dozers up for auction( Allis-Chalmers) looked field ready, clean, tight 'cept for two things... BIG holes torched into the blocks !
Guy said that's the law here,all old equipment,engine HAS to be made unoperable.
Sad, really,really sad...

 

[BAP]

That is misleading. The only time a removed engine must be “destroyed” is if participating in an emissions up-grade program and the owner desires reimbursement or payment for the upgrade.

Mobile Agricultural Off-Road Diesel Engines (Code 372) | NRCS California

I would trust Whitetiger to know more about the Kubota requirements than you do seeing how he works on them every day.

 

[Magicman]

My experience has been that when an engine was replaced under warranty, the old engine had to be destroyed. and pictures had to be sent verifying the destruction. That being said, there are many valuable parts than can be recovered from a 'destroyed' engine.

 

[Magicman]

I had a 'knocking' engine with over 10K hours several years ago. After some analysis it was determined that a new 'drop in' engine was a much better option for me. Shop labor and the 'unknowns' were the ultimate deciding factors.

No regrets and that was over 2500 hours ago.

 

[GeoHorn]

I would trust Whitetiger to know more about the Kubota requirements than you do seeing how he works on them every day.

The problem with this discussion thread is the lack of defining “replacement engine”….and the lack of delineation of supplier. (I am not representing I am knowlegeable about “Kubota” policy as relates to warranty engines. I am discussing the typical owner who wants to replace his non-warranty tractor engine. The California link I posted earlier is an example of state-law…not OEM policy.)

If an engine is replaced under a warranty the OEM is either required by EPA regs to destroy a non-compliant engine….OR…if not under warranty,….the OEM may by an internal policy wish to prevent old engines from falling into the hands of rebuilders and therefore wants proof the old block is destroyed so as to avoid competition from aftermarket/rebuilders.

Soo..in THIS discussion thread… IF an engine is SOURCED from Kubota… the divergence of policy may be: If under warranty the old engine is destroyed to meet EPA if the replacement engine is of later Tier status…. OR… if Kubota wants the old engine returned for core the identical Tier engine may not be required for destruction.

If an older tractor (no or low Tier status) engine is replaced by an identical Tier status engine supplied by a non-Kubota rebuilder…no requirement to destroy the engine exists except if the supplier requires it for internal polcy purposes. (If the old engine is required for core certainly no destruction. If the old engine is retained by tractor-owner, no need for destruction but no credit or requirement for core.)

 

[Daren Todd]

Did it change from the Kubota bulletin issued about 6 or so years ago? Curious. Every time we ordered an engine, we had to document the old engine's destruction (with kubota) regardless of what tier it was. If it was over I think 30hp, it had to be done, it was the only way we could order an engine.

So with that, came a huge deal. M7040SUHD. I had to replace engine. This was a last gen M7040SUHD, engine, interim tier 4. Meaning, there weren't that many of them out there, and at the time the parts books were wrong. Orderd part number, drilled a big hole through the block of the old one. New engine came in, wrong engine. Found out parts guy ordered the wrong one. Oops, send it back. Order another part number, shows up, again wrong. Kubota screwed up on that one. Tried to have them send us the right one, they said you have to destroy the one first (brand new engine, still on a crate and in plastic). Whaaaaat? Yep that's how stupid this stuff was, but we were all new at it, at that time, including the guys at kubota. 2 more engines later we finally got the right one, but I had to actually call the corporate office and get an engineering number, which the japanese translated to an american part number, which was totally different than the other ones. Stupid. Divisonal service manager was able to get the parts guys to ship them back and send the correct one without drilling the blocks of the returned engines but parts guys were saying "that's procedure". LOL what a mess that was!!

I could see with tier 4 engines but not the older ones. I just got a quote on an engine replacement for an 09 Deutz 914L06 that was blown. They are still available as remanned. Direct drop in replacement. Mechanically governed, Air cooled, oil bath air filter and a total of three sensors on the whole engine Temp sensor, oil pressure, and one on the belt tensioner. Sure doesn't meet tier 4 requirements.

They wanted $26,000 for it plus another $6000 to install it. Needless to say, I spent the $200 for the estimate to keep corporate happy, and then proceeded to scrap the unit since it was on the books for $2500.

I did question the service manager over the labor though to swap the engine. Engine comes already set up. All you need to do is swap the engine mounts, and the wiring harness. Hook up your banjo fittings to the fuel pump, prime and start it. Maybe swap over the starter, alternator, and oil bath.

Last one I did took me about 6 hrs. I pulled a good engine off a scrapped unit, swapped the wiring harness and engine mounts. Bolted up the coupler for the fly wheel and dropped it into place. Replaced the alternator, and belt tensioner, fixed a bracket and a couple other issues since I was swapping a blown motor for a used engine that had some minor issues.

I could see the tech taking 8 hrs to do all of that since they don't work on that type of equipment all the time. But I think they were hitting us for about 3 days labor. For such a simple engine and set up, that seems awful steep.

 

[whitetiger]

Tier 4 and Tier 5 engines do not need to be destroyed. Only the Tier 3 and older engines are required by the EPA to be destroyed so they can not be rebuilt. Proof of destruction must be submitted before a new engine will be sent. Below I have attached page 4 from the Kubota-issued document for ordering a replacement engine.

At this time, a pre Tier 4 engine can be purchased from a rebuilder and the block does not have to be destroyed.
In the past, a new engine minus fuel system components could be purchased as "parts", which is stepping into the "gray" area. I assume this was so old stock, new engines can be purged from the warehouses.

Whatever happens in California, stays in California and does not affect the real world.

 

[lugbolt]

yes that is the publication I read too

it boils down to the different tiers which dictates how they're disposed of, etc

many times the older stuff can't take a tier 4 final engine, so you have to use a replacement engine that is exactly the same tier, which carries different procedures

the fines are pretty stiff which i don't agree with.

 

[Dennis.D]

Back to the problem on hand. I'm not sure what year your tractor is, but spending that much money on an older tractor isn't always the most cost effective solution. I would defiantly determine without a doubt that it needs an engine. Then before committing to the repair get a price on trading for a new tractor. Sometimes a little more can replace the whole tractor with new. Not sure if you are a cash customer or finance, but finance rates are a lot better on new than repairs. Check all your options before making your final decision.

 

[fried1765]

Tier 4 and Tier 5 engines do not need to be destroyed. Only the Tier 3 and older engines are required by the EPA to be destroyed so they can not be rebuilt. Proof of destruction must be submitted before a new engine will be sent. Below I have attached page 4 from the Kubota-issued document for ordering a replacement engine.

At this time, a pre Tier 4 engine can be purchased from a rebuilder and the block does not have to be destroyed.
In the past, a new engine minus fuel system components could be purchased as "parts", which is stepping into the "gray" area. I assume this was so old stock, new engines can be purged from the warehouses.

Whatever happens in California, stays in California and does not affect the real world.

"Whatever happens in California, stays in California and does not affect the real world"

If that were ONLY true!

 

[whitetiger]

"Whatever happens in California, stays in California and does not affect the real world"

If that were ONLY true!

I was referring to their state laws, they have no bearing outside of their borders.

 

[mattwithcats]

Before I considered a new engine, I would eliminate all other possibilitie…

Check engine belts, fan, and pulleys…

Remove valve cover gasket, inspect.

Remove either injectors or glow plugs, borescope.
Also check cylinders for travel, do they go up and down to the same level?

Now see if you can pull the oil pan. If not, borescope through the drain hole.
Pull the connecting rod caps off, inspect bearings and crank….

 

[Joisey]

Old post, I realize, but unless I missed the post, no one did an oil pressure check on the engine. I have never seen an engine with a knock that didn't have horrible hot oil pressure.