EMP attack

[David Page]

While it maybe quite unlikely, I pray. I posted on Stihl chainsaw fans a question of how saws would fair if we had one, would a lot of funny guys and some good answers. Seems like my L260 tractor would be alright. Thoughts?

 

[William1]

Most EMP results in a temporary failure of electronics, meaning if on during the hit, they will need to be shut off, residual currents dissipated and most things would be unharmed. Perhaps 15 minutes of disruption. Some equipment takes time to reboot but the actual effect of the blast is short term.
It would not throw us into the ice age. It could bring down the power grid and that would take time (days, I imagine) to incrementally restart
It will not ruin our cars, radios, TV Unless there were a massive voltage surge similar to that of a lighting strike. EMP pulses have no where that much current, just a lot of voltage.

 

[Bmyers]

Reminds me of the Y2K. I had to get certifications on equipment that was made in the 70s that didn't have a single computer on them, but the Village required that we had certs saying that they were Y2K compliant.

If you want info on recent studies, here you go Commission to Assess the Threat to the United States from Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP) Attack (empcommission.org)

Microsoft Word - A2473-EMP Comm-0-CoverPage—29-Apr-08-wo Footer.doc (empcommission.org) On page 115 of the report it talks about testing of vehicles.

Reading through the report (which it was a few years ago since I read it) if memory serves me correctly there was two issues. The initial EMP and vehicles stopping on the road causing traffic hazards until their owners restarted the vehicle and the traffic control devices being impacted. Yet, both were short term issues. Long term was waiting for electrical to be restored for fuel. Yet, nothing about throwing us into the ice age.

 

[skeets]

15 mins you say, is that why all the military communication centers are built with in a faraday cage?

 

[PaulR]

I bought a bunch of Faraday Bags on Amazon. No telling how they will work, should test with phone and try to call while in the bag. They're not going to work at all sitting on the garage shelf.

 

[mcfarmall]

I bought a bunch of Faraday Bags on Amazon. No telling how they will work, should test with phone and try to call while in the bag. They're not going to work at all sitting on the garage shelf.

My Wisdompro Faraday pouches work great on cell phones and car key fobs.

 

[ccoon520]

15 mins you say, is that why all the military communication centers are built with in a faraday cage?

Assuming the 15 minutes is correct (I just don't have enough knowledge on it), 15 minutes is a significant period of time to be without communications in a military standpoint. Especially in detecting and repelling first strikes. If we assume that the emp goes off and 5 minutes later the attack is started and detected immediately, then there is an additional 10 minutes of no reinforcements or in the worst case response. That is 60ish miles covered by a jet going mach 1 (which most leading nations can do without afterburner currently) or 3 times that if its a missile.

I do not know what the USA or any other country's response time window is to an attack to be able to properly (or just hastily) defend but I can't imagine it is much more than that 15 minute blackout period.

Shooting from the hip here, but most people can go 2-7 days without power, and the most they will be out is perishables. However, large portions military infrastructure going down for 15 minutes could cost hundreds of thousands of military and civilian lives on top of the losses from the grid going down.

 

[Old_Paint]

15 mins you say, is that why all the military communication centers are built with in a faraday cage?

Most of the faraday cages in military construction, while it does serve to protect from incoming RF disturbances such as an EMP and EMI, is actually primarily intended to protect from the outside listening in. Computers by nature emit a lot of RF signals that can actually be received, and even decoded by their patterns, thus possibly giving away top secret information. I did a job at an Air Force base just last year where I had to leave everything that could emit RF outside the control room we were in because of the possibility of receiving and recording signals from older analog equipment and technolgy, which was actually made easier by the faraday cage on the room. I got to see some pretty cool 'sniffers' that were permanently installed in the room to detect ANY RF emitting device that wasn't supposed to be there. I can't count the times folks forgot and walked in with their phones and set off the alarm. It was quite annoying, actually.

In most cases in modern hospitals, you'll also find their MRI, CT, and XRay equipment in rooms with Faraday cages in the walls and doors, and no windows. Those types of equipment ALL emit very nasty EMI and RFI that will create big problems for other electronic equipment in a hospital. Got a pacemaker? No MRI or CT for you without a lot of special procedures to prevent interfering with the device. I've had this explained to me several times in the past 5 years thanks to old cumulative injuries and a gradually increasing heart risk (Bradycardia) that made my cardiologist wave one in my face during my last appointment. Folks that are dependent on pacemakers are not going to fare well in an EMP of even low magnitude.

Your car, sort of IS a faraday cage, albeit, not a very well built one. Metal panels largely enclose all the things that make it work. Because it isn't completely enclosed (like a tank), though, most of the 'intelligent' modules are enclosed in metal boxes firmly grounded to the car's frame. That's just little Faraday cages in a bigger one, meaning the Department of Redundancy Department has already done their job. I don't think an EMP is going to have a significant impact on transportation. Considering the miles and miles of antennae in the electrical distribution system (transmission lines), yeah, I can see where that's going to be a problem. However, there's so much protective equipment in the electrical system, it would take several EMP's with very sophisticated targeting to first take out the control electronics, then the protective electronics, and finally actually create enough damage to the major equipment to delay more than a couple days' recovery to full operation. A couple days is a long time without Meta, though, for some.

 

[Henro]

Most of the faraday cages in military construction, while it does serve to protect from incoming RF disturbances such as an EMP and EMI, is actually primarily intended to protect from the outside listening in. Computers by nature emit a lot of RF signals that can actually be received, and even decoded by their patterns, thus possibly giving away top secret information. I did a job at an Air Force base just last year where I had to leave everything that could emit RF outside the control room we were in because of the possibility of receiving and recording signals from older analog equipment and technolgy, which was actually made easier by the faraday cage on the room. I got to see some pretty cool 'sniffers' that were permanently installed in the room to detect ANY RF emitting device that wasn't supposed to be there. I can't count the times folks forgot and walked in with their phones and set off the alarm. It was quite annoying, actually.

In most cases in modern hospitals, you'll also find their MRI, CT, and XRay equipment in rooms with Faraday cages in the walls and doors, and no windows. Those types of equipment ALL emit very nasty EMI and RFI that will create big problems for other electronic equipment in a hospital. Got a pacemaker? No MRI or CT for you without a lot of special procedures to prevent interfering with the device. I've had this explained to me several times in the past 5 years thanks to old cumulative injuries and a gradually increasing heart risk (Bradycardia) that made my cardiologist wave one in my face during my last appointment. Folks that are dependent on pacemakers are not going to fare well in an EMP of even low magnitude.

Your car, sort of IS a faraday cage, albeit, not a very well built one. Metal panels largely enclose all the things that make it work. Because it isn't completely enclosed (like a tank), though, most of the 'intelligent' modules are enclosed in metal boxes firmly grounded to the car's frame. That's just little Faraday cages in a bigger one, meaning the Department of Redundancy Department has already done their job. I don't think an EMP is going to have a significant impact on transportation. Considering the miles and miles of antennae in the electrical distribution system (transmission lines), yeah, I can see where that's going to be a problem. However, there's so much protective equipment in the electrical system, it would take several EMP's with very sophisticated targeting to first take out the control electronics, then the protective electronics, and finally actually create enough damage to the major equipment to delay more than a couple days' recovery to full operation. A couple days is a long time without Meta, though, for some.

And here I thought EMP with respect to tractor sites meant Excessive Multi Postings...

Live and learn! Yes, you can teach an old dog new tricks!

 

[Jchonline]

Most EMP results in a temporary failure of electronics, meaning if on during the hit, they will need to be shut off, residual currents dissipated and most things would be unharmed. Perhaps 15 minutes of disruption. Some equipment takes time to reboot but the actual efft of the blast is short term.
It would not throw us into the ice age. It could bring down the power grid and that would take time (days, I imagine) to incrementally restart
It will not ruin our cars, radios, TV Unless there were a massive voltage surge similar to that of a lighting strike. EMP pulses have no where that much current, just a lot of voltage.

Based on this I would say you are mistaken. If it were an actual attack (easiest being an atmospheric nuclear blast) it sounds like the US Army thinks it would fry or severely damage electronics.

Electromagnetic pulse testing

www.wsmr.army.mil

If you have better information please provide it, I know nothing about them other than what I have read. I have an off grid home so I considered an EMP hardened system.

 

[Jchonline]

In most cases in modern hospitals, you'll also find their MRI, CT, and XRay equipment in rooms with Faraday cages in the walls and doors, and no windows. Those types of equipment ALL emit very nasty EMI and RFI that will create big problems for other electronic equipment in a hospital. Got a pacemaker? No MRI or CT for you without a lot of special procedures to prevent interfering with the device. I've had this explained to me several times in the past 5 years thanks to old cumulative injuries and a gradually increasing heart risk (Bradycardia) that made my cardiologist wave one in my face during my last appointment. Folks that are dependent on pacemakers are not going to fare well in an EMP of even low magnitude.

MRI is magnetic, yes it can cause major issues (I have known patients that had metal inside their bodies (screws/plates, rods) be affected in a MRI machine. The reason we isolate them is the magnetic field.

CT is Computed Tomography and uses X-rays. No magnetic fields. The reason we isolate them is the ionizing radiation, not the magnetic field.

You would have issues with MRI, but not with CT.

 

[imnukensc]

While it maybe quite unlikely, I pray. I posted on Stihl chainsaw fans a question of how saws would fair if we had one, would a lot of funny guys and some good answers. Seems like my L260 tractor would be alright. Thoughts?

I ain't worried about it.

 

[bucktail]

Reminds me of the Y2K. I had to get certifications on equipment that was made in the 70s that didn't have a single computer on them, but the Village required that we had certs saying that they were Y2K compliant.

If you want info on recent studies, here you go Commission to Assess the Threat to the United States from Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP) Attack (empcommission.org)

Microsoft Word - A2473-EMP Comm-0-CoverPage—29-Apr-08-wo Footer.doc (empcommission.org) On page 115 of the report it talks about testing of vehicles.

Reading through the report (which it was a few years ago since I read it) if memory serves me correctly there was two issues. The initial EMP and vehicles stopping on the road causing traffic hazards until their owners restarted the vehicle and the traffic control devices being impacted. Yet, both were short term issues. Long term was waiting for electrical to be restored for fuel. Yet, nothing about throwing us into the ice age.

Back in 1999 I was working with a guy from India. He was fond of saying that 85% of the banks in India were Y2K compliant and the rest had computers.

 

[Henro]

Back in 1999 I was working with a guy from India. He was fond of saying that 85% of the banks in India were Y2K compliant and the rest had computers.

It has be fifty plus years since I crossed northern India by motorcycle. I often wonder what India is like now...many pictures of the area like Afghanistan and Pakistan look the same as they did back then...wonder what the reality is?

 

[Millsertime]

High altitude nuclear blasts are a large threat. A nuclear blast 1000 miles above CONUS would be more detrimental (long term) than a nuclear blast landing directly on land (short term).

 

[Henro]

High altitude nuclear blasts are a large threat. A nuclear blast 1000 miles above CONUS would be more detrimental (long term) than a nuclear blast landing directly on land (short term).

I have no idea about this at all.

But would love to hear the reasons why you think this is so.

Just for a chance to learn about something I never thought about. Kind of counter intuitive to me, but what do I know?

 

[Jchonline]

I have no idea about this at all.

But would love to hear the reasons why you think this is so.

Just for a chance to learn about something I never thought about. Kind of counter intuitive to me, but what do I know?

Electromagnetic pulse testing

www.wsmr.army.mil

EMP on ground the wave goes into the ground directly and doesnt spread as much. EMP in the air can move freely and expand in all directions. It is much larger before it gets to the earth (ground) and dissipates.

 

[Henro]

Electromagnetic pulse testing

www.wsmr.army.mil

EMP on ground the wave goes into the ground directly and doesnt spread as much. EMP in the air can move freely and expand in all directions. It is much larger before it gets to the earth (ground) and dissipates.

I get that. BUT would not the initial explosion that caused the EMT if at ground level, cause other damage? And if the explosion occurred at high altitude would not that eliminate whatever an explosion at ground level would cause?

I have no clue, Just asking a question...to understand better.

 

[Jchonline]

I get that. BUT would not the initial explosion that caused the EMT if at ground level, cause other damage? And if the explosion occurred at high altitude would not that eliminate whatever an explosion at ground level would cause?

I have no clue, Just asking a question...to understand better.

Think of it this way. Would it be worse to take out 2 square miles with a ground nuke and an additional 10 miles of EMP based electrical damage (from that nuke), or

explode a nuke in atmosphere and take out most electrical systems in a 2000 mile radius.

 

[Henro]

Think of it this way. Would it be worse to take out 2 square miles with a ground nuke and an additional 10 miles of EMP based electrical damage (from that nuke), or

explode a nuke in atmosphere and take out most electrical systems in a 2000 mile radius.

Fair enough, but one cannot ignore the huge amount of radioactive dust generated by a ground strike and the long term effects it can have on people. AND there also might be a huge number of casualties resulting from a ground strike.

An EMP detonation 1000 miles up it seems would produce very little physical damage to the surface under it. Actually, 1000 miles up seems pretty high. Was that even a reasonable estimate of the height at which an EMP attack would occur? My guess would have been a few hundred miles max, and maybe lower...

I have no way personally to compare the two. Just thinking out loud really.