Electricians: need some kind of recording clamp on meter

[sheepfarmer]

My solar panel installation has turned into some kind of nightmare. Among other things I don't believe the fancy software that is supposed to monitor the performance of the individual panels, the two inverters, and the total AC kWh being supplied. It behaves erratically. Today it showed one whole row as being completely dead and then (after I sent a text to contractor to say it was out) suddenly, miraculously came up with a whole day's worth of production! And the new bidirectional meter installed by the power company this morning doesn't help much. It only shows the backflow if there is one, and the inflow from their lines.

So I would like my own monitoring system, but don't want to touch their wiring if possible. The wiring inside my garage is all in conduits. Do those clamp on meters work around metal conduit? There is a big panel in the garage where the wires are accessible (I think) where they come up from the back pasture. Those wires are the biggest I've ever seen. Anyone solved this problem already?

I would also like some kind of portable meter I could carry out to the back pasture for trouble shooting. Don't want to electrocute myself or short anything out, but I gather there are also DC clamp on meters too.

I pretty much don't know nothing from nothing about this, but learning fast. I just hate learning stuff the hard way though, so help appreciated.

 

[GreensvilleJay]

OK, first, NO, clamp on ammeter will NOT measure the current if clamped onto the conduit. It's actually grounded(well supposed to be,don't trust it though...).

2nd, clampon ammeters can read AC current but go around ONE wire. They will NOT read DC current ( raw solar panel power) but the power to/from the 'grid'.

3rd, yes there are DC clampons but I've never used them, prefer 'inseries' monitors.

The big issue is you NEED access to the COMPLETE wiring schematic so do YOU own the system? If so then you'll be able to modify as required. What you need to know is what current (amps) is in each wire, then install a sensor rated for that current. They are cheap and easy to use but more information will be required. I did my house 3 decades ago, cost $1000 in parts and programmed a microcomputer for the job,today t's cost maybe $100.


Jay

 

[34by151]

I have extensive solar + storage + 3 phase

I have 3 inverters (each with bidirectional monitoring)
These feed in to my main pannel and ar ac coupled to the battery inverter.
The battery inverter (3 selectronic units) handles the ac coupling to charge the batteries, grid feed or import and the gen set. Production on the solar inversters is controlled via a com link from the battery inverter. This also has monitoring

I have 24kw of pannels

Now from the outset the figures from the 3 solar inverters never match the 3 battery inverters or the meter. All though they are close.

I can explain to you why but that is another conversation.

I just use this monitoring for the general health of the components.
For the actual power monitoring I use a brutech green eye monitor.
This gives power figures for each breaker as well as the total's.
I also have it hooked into my solar hot water and water tank use.

I also ran my system for a bit over a year with grid feed. After not importing any energy for a year I disconnected and went fully off grid. To date I have only ever needed the genset when doing battery maintenance.

Average consumption per day is around 30kwh (415v 3 phase, 240v per phase) an yes I run welders, lathes ect ect off 3 phase battery & solar supply without any issues

Hope that helps

 

[Magicman]

They will NOT read DC current

3rd, yes there are DC clampons but I've never used them, prefer 'inseries' monitors. Jay

It depends upon the meter. Yes, my clamp-on ammeter does read DC current. I regularly use it to check the low current control circuits (2-5A) as well as the higher current electric over hydraulic circuits (75-150A) on my sawmill.

 

[GreensvilleJay]

nice liitle test meter, but according to the manual, no output jacks, so no 'recording' feature...aka send reading to PC or data recorder.
OK for 'I'm here now visual' testing but not long term.

 

[KennysNewFarm]

If your wanting to read values for just a few weeks you can rent a Fluke 199C. They are amazing. They record up to three phase. On our equipment we use CTs to measure amp draw all the time. I would think you could use something similar.

 

[Magicman]

I would also like some kind of portable meter I could carry out to the back pasture for trouble shooting.

Correct, I was only addressing this need.

 

[Magicman]

The measuring gimmicks available in today' world are amazing. Not necessarily what sheepfarmer was looking for but still amazing: LINK

 

[Tughill Tom]

I've used this type in my past live or it lives.... I don't know.
Their not for a non-electrical person to install, but they are EZ to set-up and use. Good luck with your search.

https://www.onsetcomp.com/products/data-loggers/browse-by-measurement/energy_power

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

I've used this type in my past live or it lives.... I don't know.
Their not for a non-electrical person to install, but they are EZ to set-up and use. Good luck with your search.

https://www.onsetcomp.com/products/data-loggers/browse-by-measurement/energy_power

It's past Life or Lives if your a cat and have more than one to spare...

Having been a commercial electrician and having been popped three times, I think I'm part cat or just well watched over!

In the link you posted, the cover picture has me scratching my head.... Hot leads on the breakers are Yellow, Green , Orange ,
I can't remember ever seeing an AC hot lead in green, Proper code is Yellow, Brown, Orange, Green is ground!
Yes DC green can be hot, But you don't have three Phase DC.

 

[GreensvilleJay]

green as a HOT wire , yikes..though it doesn't surprise me. I've seen wht-blk NMS 12-2, electricians use it for water heaters, sigh.... also KNOW that most HVAC guys don't undertsand 90%+ of HVAC installs can be done with ONE, 5 conductor cable. One idiot used 3 blk-wht cables for a regular thermostat ! I sure don't miss those dayze of installing my energy control systems.

re: ...But you don't have three Phase DC.

He may not ,but I've got it here, used on stepper motors, BLDC drives

 

[Orange1forme]

also KNOW that most HVAC guys don't undertsand 90%+ of HVAC installs can be done with ONE, 5 conductor cable.

I guess I'm going to consider myself one of the knowledgeable ones!!!!!

 

[sheepfarmer]

Thanks guys, lots of good ideas. I obviously need more than one meter if I am going to obsess over this. It falls in the category of the "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me". I will see if the electrician could install a recording meter of some sort on one of the two legs in the panel in the garage where the big wires first make connections when they come up from underground.

The explanation for the erratic reading of the software is that if the signal from the inverter to the software system, variously described by the solar guys as bluetooth, cellular, and satellite, (do they actually know???) is inadequate, the inverter will store the data and upload it when the system is "reset" by the company, Solar Edge.

They should become politicians, they seem to specialize in telling you anything convenient, true or not. E.g. Substituted a possibly, probably, lower quality panel brand for the one specified in my contract without telling me. I didn't see it until I was photographing the labels under the panels for my insurance company. Negotiations over that ongoing, including beefed up warranty. They said they forgot to tell me that the specified ones were not available when they wanted them.

 

[Mlarv]

Thanks guys, lots of good ideas. I obviously need more than one meter if I am going to obsess over this. It falls in the category of the "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me". I will see if the electrician could install a recording meter of some sort on one of the two legs in the panel in the garage where the big wires first make connections when they come up from underground.

The explanation for the erratic reading of the software is that if the signal from the inverter to the software system, variously described by the solar guys as bluetooth, cellular, and satellite, (do they actually know???) is inadequate, the inverter will store the data and upload it when the system is "reset" by the company, Solar Edge.

They should become politicians, they seem to specialize in telling you anything convenient, true or not. E.g. Substituted a possibly, probably, lower quality panel brand for the one specified in my contract without telling me. I didn't see it until I was photographing the labels under the panels for my insurance company. Negotiations over that ongoing, including beefed up warranty. They said they forgot to tell me that the specified ones were not available when they wanted them.

I have been looking at these. They are not cheap. They clamp over the mains coming into the box. I can not post a link I just joined a few weeks ago. Look up Sense electrical monitor. They are orange

 

[sheepfarmer]

I have been looking at these. They are not cheap. They clamp over the mains coming into the box. I can not post a link I just joined a few weeks ago. Look up Sense electrical monitor. They are orange

Thanks Mlarv, something like that only simpler would do. Interesting gadgets out there. I only want to monitor input from solar array and I don't have a problem walking into the garage to look at a meter. I can pretty much guess where it goes in the house.

 

[GreensvilleJay]

Be very,very careful about EVERY wireless device you put in your home !! That Sense product is a good example. That little orange box more than likely transmits YOUR data to THEIR computers, same as ROOMBAs, NEST stats,wireless CCTV and car 'save on insurance' 'black boxes'.
I'd have to have it on my bench here for a week BUT it's a sleezy way 'they' get your info. Friend didn't believe me until I showed him WHERE the data was going from his device.

 

[sheepfarmer]

OK, first, NO, clamp on ammeter will NOT measure the current if clamped onto the conduit. It's actually grounded(well supposed to be,don't trust it though...).

2nd, clampon ammeters can read AC current but go around ONE wire. They will NOT read DC current ( raw solar panel power) but the power to/from the 'grid'.

3rd, yes there are DC clampons but I've never used them, prefer 'inseries' monitors.

The big issue is you NEED access to the COMPLETE wiring schematic so do YOU own the system? If so then you'll be able to modify as required. What you need to know is what current (amps) is in each wire, then install a sensor rated for that current. They are cheap and easy to use but more information will be required. I did my house 3 decades ago, cost $1000 in parts and programmed a microcomputer for the job,today t's cost maybe $100.


Jay

Jay, yes I own the system, but while the company and I are arguing over what the warranty will be I haven't finished paying for it, technically not mine. A clamp on recording meter for current would work. I think I could access one of the two legs inside that panel. The circuit breaker for that circuit is 100 amp. The wires coming up from back pasture are plus and minus 120 making 240V, and neutral.

I probably would involve the electrician, for safety sake, need to have him come out, my generator has gone on strike.

 

[torch]

Do you have a volt meter with recording capability? If so, you could leverage that capability by using an adapter such as this: https://www.ebay.ca/itm/HP-605A-600...Ammeter-Current-Test-Probes-S9O9/383346032757

I have a similar unit, but not that particular one. It produces a voltage relative to the current (eg: 1mV / amp) and must be connected to a voltmeter to get a reading. As with any clamp-on ammeter, it must be clamped around a single conductor, not a pair and not a conduit.