why did you need to remove the steering wheel?I have partial news. The battery WAS bad. I took it to NAPA. Voltage was good but it failed the load test. It registered 0!
There hasn't been time to install it yet but I have high hopes. I have to put the tractor back together before I can use it. Yes, I could put the battery in to test but it is more prudent to avoid having to do things over again. Bonnet off, side portion off, steering wheel off, etc.
I'll report tomorrow...although you may hear a shriek of delight regardless of your distance from NC.
TG
Electrical help needed on BX23D
- Thread starter Tractor Gal
- Start date
Well, the partial news is still partial news. The battery definitely was dead and needed replacing. I put the new one in this morning and at first, good dash lights but no start. Then, after two attempts with turning key, the thing started like a champ. Everything sounded good.I have partial news. The battery WAS bad. I took it to NAPA. Voltage was good but it failed the load test. It registered 0!
There hasn't been time to install it yet but I have high hopes. I have to put the tractor back together before I can use it. Yes, I could put the battery in to test but it is more prudent to avoid having to do things over again. Bonnet off, side portion off, steering wheel off, etc.
I'll report tomorrow...although you may hear a shriek of delight regardless of your distance from NC.
TG
I let it run for a few minutes since it hasn't been started for several weeks. Now, for the bad news. I shut it off and finalized putting things back together. Then, the tractor would not start again. The dash lights are dim again.
Yes, DustyRusty, that is a good question. i had removed the steering wheel to get the dash panel off, thinking there must be a short somewhere. It's quite a task to look up under there. And, it seems as though I may be right as to a short.
I'm going to have to take that dash panel off to see if I can either see something or maybe use the voltmeter to try to track down something. Under the panel, the wires are in the protective covering and zip tied up to hold them in place. It's going to be hard for me to do this but I'll give it a try.
Since, on the start up this morning, the tractor started well, I don't think it is the starter. This whole electrical wiring was in a mess when I got it but the tractor ran so that was all I needed. None of the switches for the lights are wired to work. The headlights were on but could only be turned off by taking the wires off at the bulbs.
I so appreciate all the help. I know it's nearly impossible to give remote advice for this kind of thing. I can do some things but trying to figure an electrical problem as simple as this diagram may be, I'm not sure I can be successful. But, I will give it a try. I'll post again if/when I know something.
Again, I am thankful for all the help.
Sitting here thinking about where I would start with your new information. If the lights are dim again, I would start by wiggling wires around and see if they will brighten up again, suggesting where a bad wire or connection is. I have a BX22 and have been under the dash so I know what a struggle that is, at least at my age. The dash switches on my BX get dirt in them and fail to make contact is why I have been under there.
GreensvilleJay
Well-known member
Equipment
BX23-S,57 A-C D-14,58 A-C D-14, 57 A-C D-14,tiller,cults,Millcreek 25G spreader,
re: 'dim dash lights'......
Are BOTH battery cables brand spanking new ? Molded ends, NOT clamp down 'bodgers' ?
Are BOTH battery cables brand spanking new ? Molded ends, NOT clamp down 'bodgers' ?
I may have found the culprit. I took the dash panel off, checked on the wires, etc,. then re-attached the battery. Tractor started quickly. Turned it off and started quickly again. So, I thought that there must've been a loose connection or something, even though I didn't notice.
Put the panel back on...wouldn't start. At this point, one side of my head has no hair but I wasn't ready to give up just yet.
Took the panel off again but could see nothing. Tried to start, dim lights and the squeaky/creaky sound was back. It is coming from the relay timer, so I think that is the problem.
I did want to get verification...or at least...a nod that this may be the problem. I don't know if there is a way to test this or not.
So, what do you think...relay timer? Not too expensive but no need to waste $78 if it's not likely the issue.
TG
PS Dustyx2 said, "I have a BX22 and have been under the dash so I know what a struggle that is, at least at my age. " Mister, I'm hearin' ya' loud and clear.
Thanks for any thumbs up on replacing the relay.
TG
Put the panel back on...wouldn't start. At this point, one side of my head has no hair but I wasn't ready to give up just yet.
Took the panel off again but could see nothing. Tried to start, dim lights and the squeaky/creaky sound was back. It is coming from the relay timer, so I think that is the problem.
I did want to get verification...or at least...a nod that this may be the problem. I don't know if there is a way to test this or not.
So, what do you think...relay timer? Not too expensive but no need to waste $78 if it's not likely the issue.
TG
PS Dustyx2 said, "I have a BX22 and have been under the dash so I know what a struggle that is, at least at my age. " Mister, I'm hearin' ya' loud and clear.
Thanks for any thumbs up on replacing the relay.
TG
I would be hesitant to start replacing parts until they are confirmed as defective. I am inclined to start looking at the ground cable and making certain that it has a good clean connection to the frame. As for the headlight switch not working, that is something that needs to be addressed. The entire electrical system should work as designed, and if not, then you or someone more experienced will need to step up to find all the gremlins.
Yes, I hear you. I have removed the grounds and cleaned them so I know that's not the problem. I still suspect the relay to be the issue. But, I've proven that my suspicions, in themselves, are suspect.
TG
What do you know?
You know that moving the panel caused the issue to resolve.
Did moving the panel move the relay in question as well? If not the relay is unlikely to be the problem..
BUT moving the panel did move a lot of wires.
Sure seems to indicate an issue with wiring. Likely an open wire/poor connection, if you are not blowing a fuse at the moment. Open AND /OR shorted is the other possibility if you are blowing fuses.
You can fix this. It is not rocket science. Just takes some effort…
You know that moving the panel caused the issue to resolve.
Did moving the panel move the relay in question as well? If not the relay is unlikely to be the problem..
BUT moving the panel did move a lot of wires.
Sure seems to indicate an issue with wiring. Likely an open wire/poor connection, if you are not blowing a fuse at the moment. Open AND /OR shorted is the other possibility if you are blowing fuses.
You can fix this. It is not rocket science. Just takes some effort…
The relay, when the ignition is turned off even though the tractor wasn't running, makes a squeaky/creeky sound for 3-4 seconds and vibrates slightly. That's why I thought it may be the relay.
No fuses have been blown.
Effort, I'm glad to give.
It very well could be a wiring issue. I'll have to get back to it tomorrow. The biggest hurdle is that, while I have the wiring diagram, I don't know how to test. Yes, I know that if I could find the ends of wires I could test for continuity but these are all wrapped together. I'll try to see the ends for colors and maybe go from there.
As for having someone fix it for me, I would be happy to do that but I have no idea how to find someone to come here to do it. I cannot transport.
Life is good. I know it is. Sometimes it's hard to stick with what you know.
TG
ve9aa
Well-known member
Equipment
TG1860, BX2380 -backblade, bx2830 snowblower, fel, weight box,pallet forks,etc
I don't know your tractor whatsoever, but like a few here, am quite strong electrically. (just in general...not Kubota electrically neccesarily)
All indications are that not (enough) voltage (and thus current) is reaching the starter itself.
This can be caused by several factors:
Key switch, Relay, starter solenoid, connections to either/and/or the solenoid or the starter, BOTH ends of BOTH cables +/- going to/from the battery and starter/solenoid. LAstly, bad cell in a battery that reads 12+V but breaks down under load.
I recall (some of) the other thread on this, but honestly if this were me, almost the first thing I would've eliminated was bypassing as many elements of the starting circuit as possible.
Understanding you are not super strong electrically this may take some 'splainin'
but as strange as it may SEEM you need to work backwards from the starter.
ie: Use your truck....running.....jumper cables.....neg jumper cable to frame of tractor near starter and positive wire to the starter lugbolt itself (not even the starter solenoid at this point in time) The tractor battery is NOT in the circuit at all . Unhook it.
This SHOULD work if your starter is OK. If no joy, you can use some gentle persuasion with a small hammer or big wrench on the heavy parts of the case, just in case (no pun intended). Don't kill it.
If no joy, the problem is mechanically or electrically within your starter. If it starts with just voltage from your truck to your starter, move back one element.
Next, do all the same stuff, but to the starter solenoid. Again, I haven't the faintest clue about your model of tractor but generally speaking it's a small cylindrical switch located either on top of, on the side of, or very close to, the starter. It's just a BIGGIE remote switch that passes a lot of current. All your key and relay do is "tell" the solenoid to connect 2 contacts together to pass lotsa current to the starter. On some cars, you can literally bridge the gap between 2 large bolts that 2 big wires of the positive lead are connected to with a big screwdriver and a big spark will happen....again.....never even looked to see what the BX25D has for a solenoid, so don't take that as neccesarily applicable in your case. Tapping it gently with a wrench can sometimes bring elation if most of the issue is dirt, corrosion etc. ( don't beat it within an inch of its life or anything crazy) Solenoids are not usually known to be tough guys like the thick casing on a starter. Gentle is the key here.
If this works, go back one more element....maybe the relay is not playing nice and passing the "message" onto the solenoid to operate. We're dealing with very little current up here and even a small amount of
corrosion under a crimp or half the strands in a wire broken will/can, cause the relay to chatter and decide if it wants to play nice and pass the message onto the solenoid to do its thing or not.
Then the relay by your dash. Does your relay pop into a socket of some kind? (If so, pretty easy to pop it out, clean connections and pop it back in) If sealed or black plastic , hard to see what's going on in there. Myself, I'd dremel/cut it open if I couldn't pry the case off and then burnish the contacts, but that's me. I'd do things with power supplies and multimeters we won't get into here. One thing you COULD do is just tap it a few times lightly/gently with the plastic/handle end of a screwdriver in case the issue was mechanical, not electrical. ie: rust or corrosion on the moveable parts within. If it's on the end of a bundle of wire you could jiggle it around gently to possibly reveal a loose wire or crimp, corrosion or bite marks from Mickey or Minnie./
These are just a few ideas.
Make SURE you know what's happening if you try to start the tractor with any of these ideas when you're not in the seat. ie: in neutral, parking brakes on, wheels all blocked/chocked up or in the air, etc.
Don't run yourself over !
Oh, and btw, every single time you crank on that thing and it doesn't starts makes your (new) battery all that much more weaker for the next try. You'll need a 120vac-12vdc charger of some kind
(or)
Once do you do get it started let it run an hour or two to even HOPE to get the resting voltage back up to levels that are useable for NEXT time for some cranking. The glow plugs and starter both draw LOTS of current. Current that's not put back into your battery very quickly
This all assumes your alternator is working. That'll be problem #2 once you get it runnin'...because...how did the previous battery go dead? (I'd want to know that)
Good luck
All indications are that not (enough) voltage (and thus current) is reaching the starter itself.
This can be caused by several factors:
Key switch, Relay, starter solenoid, connections to either/and/or the solenoid or the starter, BOTH ends of BOTH cables +/- going to/from the battery and starter/solenoid. LAstly, bad cell in a battery that reads 12+V but breaks down under load.
I recall (some of) the other thread on this, but honestly if this were me, almost the first thing I would've eliminated was bypassing as many elements of the starting circuit as possible.
Understanding you are not super strong electrically this may take some 'splainin'
but as strange as it may SEEM you need to work backwards from the starter.
ie: Use your truck....running.....jumper cables.....neg jumper cable to frame of tractor near starter and positive wire to the starter lugbolt itself (not even the starter solenoid at this point in time) The tractor battery is NOT in the circuit at all . Unhook it.
This SHOULD work if your starter is OK. If no joy, you can use some gentle persuasion with a small hammer or big wrench on the heavy parts of the case, just in case (no pun intended). Don't kill it.
If no joy, the problem is mechanically or electrically within your starter. If it starts with just voltage from your truck to your starter, move back one element.
Next, do all the same stuff, but to the starter solenoid. Again, I haven't the faintest clue about your model of tractor but generally speaking it's a small cylindrical switch located either on top of, on the side of, or very close to, the starter. It's just a BIGGIE remote switch that passes a lot of current. All your key and relay do is "tell" the solenoid to connect 2 contacts together to pass lotsa current to the starter. On some cars, you can literally bridge the gap between 2 large bolts that 2 big wires of the positive lead are connected to with a big screwdriver and a big spark will happen....again.....never even looked to see what the BX25D has for a solenoid, so don't take that as neccesarily applicable in your case. Tapping it gently with a wrench can sometimes bring elation if most of the issue is dirt, corrosion etc. ( don't beat it within an inch of its life or anything crazy) Solenoids are not usually known to be tough guys like the thick casing on a starter. Gentle is the key here.
If this works, go back one more element....maybe the relay is not playing nice and passing the "message" onto the solenoid to operate. We're dealing with very little current up here and even a small amount of
corrosion under a crimp or half the strands in a wire broken will/can, cause the relay to chatter and decide if it wants to play nice and pass the message onto the solenoid to do its thing or not.
Then the relay by your dash. Does your relay pop into a socket of some kind? (If so, pretty easy to pop it out, clean connections and pop it back in) If sealed or black plastic , hard to see what's going on in there. Myself, I'd dremel/cut it open if I couldn't pry the case off and then burnish the contacts, but that's me. I'd do things with power supplies and multimeters we won't get into here. One thing you COULD do is just tap it a few times lightly/gently with the plastic/handle end of a screwdriver in case the issue was mechanical, not electrical. ie: rust or corrosion on the moveable parts within. If it's on the end of a bundle of wire you could jiggle it around gently to possibly reveal a loose wire or crimp, corrosion or bite marks from Mickey or Minnie./
These are just a few ideas.
Make SURE you know what's happening if you try to start the tractor with any of these ideas when you're not in the seat. ie: in neutral, parking brakes on, wheels all blocked/chocked up or in the air, etc.
Don't run yourself over !
Oh, and btw, every single time you crank on that thing and it doesn't starts makes your (new) battery all that much more weaker for the next try. You'll need a 120vac-12vdc charger of some kind
(or)
Once do you do get it started let it run an hour or two to even HOPE to get the resting voltage back up to levels that are useable for NEXT time for some cranking. The glow plugs and starter both draw LOTS of current. Current that's not put back into your battery very quickly
This all assumes your alternator is working. That'll be problem #2 once you get it runnin'...because...how did the previous battery go dead? (I'd want to know that)
Good luck
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Ve9aa, you've got a good path. Some of the things I think I've already covered but it certainly wouldn't hurt to repeat.
Tomorrow is a new day and I'm always thankful to wake up and have one. I'll give it a go and report back. Thanks for the help.
Tomorrow is a new day and I'm always thankful to wake up and have one.
I'll give it a go and report back. Thanks for the help.
xrocketengineer
Well-known member
Lifetime Member
Equipment
BX1880, FEL, Grapple, 36 in. Forks, 48in. MMM, Quick Spade, Ripper
I am looking at the wiring diagrams for the BX70 series and if they are the same as the BX23D, this is what I see:
If the dash lights are dim with the ignition switch in the "on" position and not in start, the ignition switch or its wires could be bad.
If the dash lights are dim with the ignition switch only in the "start" position, the ignition switch feed wire or start wire could be bad or the that the starter is locking up and draining all the voltage of the battery. Check the battery voltage while attempting to crank to see how low it goes. Since you have a new battery, during normal cranking the voltage should be at least 10 volts.
If the voltage is not right, relays can vibrate and make noise because there is not enough voltage for them to stay latched.
I hope this helps
Do not under any circumstances tap on the starter, because some of the new starters use ceramics inside of them and they will shatter, causing the starter to be junk. In the old days, you would tap on the starter when someone else was holding the key in the start position, and the rap of the hammer would cause the armature to jump up and spin. The basic cause of the armature issue is the bushings at the brush end of the starter would become egg-shaped from wear and need to be replaced. I don't believe that her tractor has enough hours on it to have worn out those bushings. I also wonder if she bought a new battery with enough cold cranking amps, or if they sold her a low-end battery that is going to need to be replaced in a couple of years. I opted for an inexpensive NAPA battery, and it was dead a year and one month later, just when it was out of warranty.
If you still have your jumper you made put it back on the solenoid and touch it to the lug on the starter, If the starter turns and does it every time we will know you have good battery connections and the starter and solenoid is good. Can you post the electrical schematic for that tractor? Mine does not have that component that is suspect. I believe it is a relay associated with the safety switches. That relay if it were bad doesn't really explain the dim lights unless it is grounding to something. You might check your voltage at the wire clipped to the solenoid at the starter and see if you get 12 volts there when the key is turned to the start position. That would likely be the wire fed by the suspect relay you are hearing. You need to catch it when it's not working, which shouldn't be too hard!
I haven't worked on this problem for a while but am back at it today. Good battery, good voltage to starter.
On first turn of the ignition switch, the dash lights come on good and strong. Turn the switch to start and nothing. When I turn the key off, there is a loud "pop" that sounds like its from the starter area.
In looking at the wiring diagram, it shows the solenoid with a white wire and a black wire and a ground. I see a ground wire doing to the starter to the frame but nothing that has both of the wires I mentioned. Where in the world is this famous solenoid?
On first turn of the ignition switch, the dash lights come on good and strong. Turn the switch to start and nothing. When I turn the key off, there is a loud "pop" that sounds like its from the starter area.
In looking at the wiring diagram, it shows the solenoid with a white wire and a black wire and a ground. I see a ground wire doing to the starter to the frame but nothing that has both of the wires I mentioned. Where in the world is this famous solenoid?
Have you checked the voltage with the key in the start position? We need to determine you have good voltage under a load. I would also like to see what voltage you have on the small wire on the starter solenoid with the key in the start position. Older tractors can develop enough resistance through the safety switches to lower the voltage at the solenoid to a point where it won't engage. Can you post the electrical schematics? I have a BX22 but I think there are differences between the two.
No more calls, we have a winner. The electrical problem has been solved.
My good neighbor came over after his work shift today and found the problem. The starter spring had not retracted the teeth. That's the only way I know to describe it. I had seen those teeth but didn't know they were out of place, so to speak.
He took a screw driver and gave a nudge. The spring pulled the teeth back. I hooked up the battery and ka-boom, it started right up.
There are some good things about this. I learned a lot about this littlemonstrosity tractor which is always good. Sadly, I wish I had more knowledge but we do the best we can with what we have.
Another good thing is the wonderful effort from so many on this board to try to help. I'm sure if you had been here, you would've seen it right away. Trying to "fix from afar" is terribly difficult, and I appreciate all the efforts and suggestions.
Tomorrow, I'll put this little thing back together and get back to some grass cutting. It will be pleasant...I hope.
Thanks again, everyone.
Tractor Gal
My good neighbor came over after his work shift today and found the problem. The starter spring had not retracted the teeth. That's the only way I know to describe it. I had seen those teeth but didn't know they were out of place, so to speak.
He took a screw driver and gave a nudge. The spring pulled the teeth back. I hooked up the battery and ka-boom, it started right up.
There are some good things about this. I learned a lot about this little
Another good thing is the wonderful effort from so many on this board to try to help. I'm sure if you had been here, you would've seen it right away. Trying to "fix from afar" is terribly difficult, and I appreciate all the efforts and suggestions.
Tomorrow, I'll put this little thing back together and get back to some grass cutting. It will be pleasant...I hope.
Thanks again, everyone.
Tractor Gal
RCW
Well-known member
Lifetime Member
Equipment
BX2360, FEL, MMM, BX2750D snowblower. 1953 Minneapolis Moline ZAU
Tractorgal - glad you found the issue!
It’s possible the starter problems will return. At least now you know where to look first.
I had to rebuild the starter on my old Minneapolis Moline tractor, including a new Bendix. Bendix is the mechanism that extends and retracts the drive gear on the starter into the flywheel of the engine.
Not sure how rebuildable a BX starter is.
For the time being, I would just keep tabs on it.
It’s possible the starter problems will return. At least now you know where to look first.
I had to rebuild the starter on my old Minneapolis Moline tractor, including a new Bendix. Bendix is the mechanism that extends and retracts the drive gear on the starter into the flywheel of the engine.
Not sure how rebuildable a BX starter is.
For the time being, I would just keep tabs on it.
Yes, thanks for that, RCW. My neighbor said similar. I had seen a youtube on the starter re-build and it doesn't look particularly daunting. But, then again, that's where I make my mistakes. I think I can do more than actual...but, I've always been that way. Jackie Gleason used to say, "Another fine mess you've gotten me into, Alice." That's what I say to myself.
Yes, I'm old enough to remember Jackie Gleason. And, actually, far older!I may look for a "Kit" if they have one, to have on hand, just in case. Thanks again.