I suppose your great grandfather said the same about horseless carriages. And yes he was right - look at GM/Ford/Stellantis - no profit, and basically doomed as their market gets taken over by better options.
Electric vehicles will be cheaper to produce than gas cars by 2027: report
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fried1765
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Kubota L48 TLB, Ford 1920 FEL, Ford 8N, SCAG Liberty Z, Gravely Pro.
That was probably also said, when there were lots of stables, and very few gasoline stations.
I am not defending EV's.
I too, do think that they are a "passing fancy".
when micorwave ovens came online, they were expensive. But $500 for a microwave, is hardly $80,000 for a car-when a gas counterpart costs less, quite a bit less. So those arguments, in my opinion, are invalid. You're effectively justifying the cost.
cost will come down over time. It has to. But that doesn't discount the fact that currently the costs are high. This is important when we're taking tens, or hundreds of thousands of dollars-which the majority of Americans cant afford-especially now with the current state of economy.
there's gonna have to be a LOT of changes made in order for them to become mainstream, or at least anywhere near "as" mainstream as current petroleum burners are. Until that happens, not everyone will be able to own them. I fit that bill. I work on em, I drive em, daily (cars golf cars and UTVs) I have nothing against them in general; my issues lie in the facts that you cannot run down to the store and fill 'er up in 5 minutes without doing damage, can't charge at home (I've outlined this) effectively, and insurance/tax/registration costs are entirely too high to justify, and there ain't a charging station on every corner. How do we deal with the costs? Well, gotta figure out how to get the government's hands out of that cookie jar first but I don't think I'll see that in my lifetime.
Something else about EV...while certain areas are mandating them as of a certain date, it opens up opportunity. As Forest Gump says "that's all I have to say about that".
Lots of changes HAVE to be made, and this is drastic. Leadership doesn't think it's a big deal but I guarantee you that it is. If done in the short term, as some states have mandated, it's gonna mess a lot of people's lives up. Maybe that's why a lot of them are moving out? Dunno.
cost will come down over time. It has to. But that doesn't discount the fact that currently the costs are high. This is important when we're taking tens, or hundreds of thousands of dollars-which the majority of Americans cant afford-especially now with the current state of economy.
there's gonna have to be a LOT of changes made in order for them to become mainstream, or at least anywhere near "as" mainstream as current petroleum burners are. Until that happens, not everyone will be able to own them. I fit that bill. I work on em, I drive em, daily (cars golf cars and UTVs) I have nothing against them in general; my issues lie in the facts that you cannot run down to the store and fill 'er up in 5 minutes without doing damage, can't charge at home (I've outlined this) effectively, and insurance/tax/registration costs are entirely too high to justify, and there ain't a charging station on every corner. How do we deal with the costs? Well, gotta figure out how to get the government's hands out of that cookie jar first but I don't think I'll see that in my lifetime.
Something else about EV...while certain areas are mandating them as of a certain date, it opens up opportunity. As Forest Gump says "that's all I have to say about that".
Lots of changes HAVE to be made, and this is drastic. Leadership doesn't think it's a big deal but I guarantee you that it is. If done in the short term, as some states have mandated, it's gonna mess a lot of people's lives up. Maybe that's why a lot of them are moving out? Dunno.
I have no plans to jump on the electric car bandwagon any time soon. It could well be that in another 10 years or y50 years they will be more affordable and the current problems will be worked out. Maybe we will then have sufficient infrastructure to support wide scale usage. We could be surprised, much like our great grandparents were with the development of the automobiles.
There are plenty of electric vehicles that sell for MORE than $80,000.
However, the best-selling vehicle in the world last year was an electric vehicle, and it is priced similarly to its competitor gas models:
Tesla Model Y lists for $44k in the US, but many buyers get a fed tax credit, making it more like $36k for them:
A mid-grade gas FWD Toyota RAV4 lists for $34k
You're entitled to your own opinions on the matter @lugbolt , but not your own facts.
And tell us more about your 'can't charge at home' assertion. That's certainly NOT generally true. I know lots of folks with EVs, and all charge at home with no issue. For many, that's among the biggest advantages on an EV!
However, the best-selling vehicle in the world last year was an electric vehicle, and it is priced similarly to its competitor gas models:
Tesla Model Y lists for $44k in the US, but many buyers get a fed tax credit, making it more like $36k for them:
A mid-grade gas FWD Toyota RAV4 lists for $34k
You're entitled to your own opinions on the matter @lugbolt , but not your own facts.
And tell us more about your 'can't charge at home' assertion. That's certainly NOT generally true. I know lots of folks with EVs, and all charge at home with no issue. For many, that's among the biggest advantages on an EV!
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The main problem with EV is the same problem as the last "fuel wars" when the automobile was first taking off. They are less convenient and we don't have the infrastructure. Back then we didn't have the infrastructure for gas either but it is much easier to transport a liquid than electricity.
However this time around there is one very large issue that was missing the last go around. The government is sticking their fingers in. The only reason that ev is even part of the conversation is because the government is pushing it onto everyone with mandates, tax breaks, and discounts at the purchase date. Which makes them more enticing to produce and to purchase. Without those factors the ev would still be as popular as it was during the Bush administration, just an oddity that very few adopt.
The main issue is that same government is killing the future of ev at the same time. They know the grid can't support the switch. They know we don't have enough energy generation. But instead of addressing these issues, they are working backwards. They are pushing for less efficient energy generation. They are adding regulations and going after appliances in the home that are non electric which will increase the strain on both the grid and generation even more.
Ev is a valid option at today's technology level, but will remain the largest most expensive waste of time of this century unless the government starts spending money to reinforce the grid and drops the "green energy" movements in favor of nuclear or hell even more coal power plants to make up the energy we NEED to make the switch.
However this time around there is one very large issue that was missing the last go around. The government is sticking their fingers in. The only reason that ev is even part of the conversation is because the government is pushing it onto everyone with mandates, tax breaks, and discounts at the purchase date. Which makes them more enticing to produce and to purchase. Without those factors the ev would still be as popular as it was during the Bush administration, just an oddity that very few adopt.
The main issue is that same government is killing the future of ev at the same time. They know the grid can't support the switch. They know we don't have enough energy generation. But instead of addressing these issues, they are working backwards. They are pushing for less efficient energy generation. They are adding regulations and going after appliances in the home that are non electric which will increase the strain on both the grid and generation even more.
Ev is a valid option at today's technology level, but will remain the largest most expensive waste of time of this century unless the government starts spending money to reinforce the grid and drops the "green energy" movements in favor of nuclear or hell even more coal power plants to make up the energy we NEED to make the switch.
I know in MA and CT you have to take out an electrical permit to install the charger in your garage. If your service isn't sufficient then you have to upgrade your service to the current code. All this can get very expensive quickly.
GreensvilleJay
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BX23-S,57 A-C D-14,58 A-C D-14, 57 A-C D-14,tiller,cults,Millcreek 25G spreader,
Same here in Ontario and..... then you'll also get ALL the house electrical inspected,so ANYTHING not up to current code HAS to be dealt with.
Most, here anyway, don't have 2 'free' spots on their panels...so new panel, ARCfault breakers,wiring of course, ka-ching !
Most, here anyway, don't have 2 'free' spots on their panels...so new panel, ARCfault breakers,wiring of course, ka-ching !
The extra weight of EVs poses problems for existing infrastructure. Here are a couple examples discussing parking garages and guard rails.
www.thedrive.com
Watch a 7,000-LB Rivian R1T Destroy a Guardrail in Eyebrow-Raising Test
A Rivian R1T was used to test the capability of the country's existing guardrail system against EVs, and the results weren't pretty.
www.thedrive.com
jyoutz
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MX6000 HST open station, FEL, 6’ cutter, forks, 8’ rear blade, 7’ cultivator
Coal is dead and not cost effective. In my state, all of the coal plants were converted to natural gas. Cleaner and cheaper.
Good to know. I had no idea. My area is nuclear. One of the few left, it was scheduled to be decommissioned but the state refuses to foot the bill for its replacement and there isn't really a solid reliable option for an alternative in the area.
On a side note, the way of the near future, I hope anyway, is all the small companies pushing diesel generation powered cars. All electric driveline with an onboard generator that kicks on and runs when you're out of range or you REALLY need some torque just like a locomotive. Still can plug in, all the torque benefits of electric and much more fuel efficient. Less complicated and lighter weight than a hybrid.
If I had the money, I'd bet I could repower my old Ramcharger with the same engine as my Kubota. Run dual E-axles with a nice sized battery in the center between the frame rails. I could probably tow as much weight as my 3/4 ton, be dead silent coming home in the early AM (night shifter), have regen braking for the hills, while still having the same range and fill up times. Plus I've had my tractor running full tilt with a tiller and didn't even empty the tank in roughly 8 hours. I'd guess if I had the battery/weight ratio just right I could exceed 30mpg in the ol' brick.
jyoutz
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MX6000 HST open station, FEL, 6’ cutter, forks, 8’ rear blade, 7’ cultivator
problem with hybrid is that you're doubling the potential problems. You either have electric propulsion, or you have gas/diesel propulsion. Having both-potential for problems with both the electric and the gas side. And the generation side. I just don't see it being a viable alternative.
Locomotives run the diesel engine full time, they don't shut off unless they're going to be down for a week or more (usually maintenance/repair). I can remember them well, since my dad did 46 years at UP and grandpa did 38. Place I used to work at, right on the tracks, they'd pull a set of loco's out there behind the shop and they'd sit and idle, sometimes up to a month straight. They couldn't shut em down because they had orders otherwise.
Locomotives run the diesel engine full time, they don't shut off unless they're going to be down for a week or more (usually maintenance/repair). I can remember them well, since my dad did 46 years at UP and grandpa did 38. Place I used to work at, right on the tracks, they'd pull a set of loco's out there behind the shop and they'd sit and idle, sometimes up to a month straight. They couldn't shut em down because they had orders otherwise.
Well normal hybrids are much more complicated than gen sets. For instance with my truck you would run a pair of e-axles where the motor would be one complete unit. Which would entirely eliminate the driveline. Using a small diesel like out of a sub 25hp tractor would also eliminate the ignition system and carb. Also eliminating all but a few wires.
In theory while it would introduce more failure points, it would also eliminate a few while adding redundancy. For example; should there be an issue such as a motor failure, the other axle would take over. Battery failure would be replaced by the gen set. Should the generator fail you can still run off the battery with plug in charging.
Then there are the benefits of increased fuel economy, potentially greater range, decreased overall emissions, clean charging (in my area) from nuclear power. E-axles would of course have instant torque which unlike an electric car (other than fuckery and general shenanigans), actually serves a real purpose in a truck for towing. Plus of course having a mobile gen set capable of powering a job site or your home during an emergency.
Even if you ran the engine at full tilt for the generator non stop, I can personally guarantee you it would use considerably less fuel than it's current power train. The highest mpg I've heard from anyone driving one of these bricks modified or stock is 20mpg. That's equivalent to 11 hours of run time assuming 55mph with a 30gallon tank. I could get 6-8 hours out of my tractor running a tiller with the factory tank.
Of course we will soon see the real world scenarios as Edison motors has finished registration their first full functional prototype semi and is about to start the real world testing.
Agreed
My experience with 3 generations of Toyota Prius hybrids is that they are extremely reliable both on the gas engine and electric side. Our '08 Prius finally died after 14 years and 400K kms after chipmunks moved in while the car was parked for an extended period.
Toyota has over 27 years experience manufacturing hybrids and is on its 5th gen hybrid drivetrain. Like anything experience counts and Toyota has had the time to work out the bugs vs newcomers to the HEV market. I wouldn't hesitate to buy another Toyota HEV or PHEV due to my good experiences to date with these products. They've earned their reputation for trustworthiness on the HEV side.
I personally believe that manufacturers should be required to make their vehicles more energy efficient instead of pandering to the North American market pushing for bigger, heavier, more HP 4WD SUV minivans and poser pickup truck commuter vehicles with crew cabs and useless tiny parodies of a work bed. That makes much more sense to me than ramming a "carbon tax" down our throats and claiming that taxing us more is better for the environment when we can't find more efficient vehicles to buy.
government will always use tax as a "deterrent" to buy things. It is good for them. Income.
Some folks talk about corporate greed. I'm not sure about that. Everything I make goes back to the company after I pay the bills, so effectively my budget ends up at zero-but-I also pay myself, enough to make a living. Some might have a problem with that, saying "you made $14,300 last year you greedy jerk". But with all that said, who's really greedy? Corporations? OR the government who almost always benefits from the many fees and taxes.
If people only knew how much of what a business makes goes right back to every type of government, they MIGHT understand where I'm coming from here. Just a hint? It's over 50% of what I make that goes back to uncle sam in one way or another.
EV's might be less expensive to make, but what about making them less expensive to own, without taxing the ICE vehicles? I think THAT-is going to be the bigger challenge.
think about it. EV's are generally heavier than ICE. The weight is hard on roads. So the roads are going to need more repairs more frequently. Road builders are using less expensive materials, for many reasons (inflation is one), which falls apart sooner. How do those roads get paid? Taxes. Fuel tax. EV's don't use fuels so the challenge is to find a way to tax them such that they pay their fair share as well. That is why currently in this area, EV registrations cost a lot more than ICE. Heavier vehicles cause more damage when they hit other cars--which is one reason car insurance rates have skyrocketed. They also cost a lot more to repair, than ICE counterparts. The cost to repair is often more than just declaring it a total loss. Then you have the many aggressively advertising attorneys that are taking advantage of this stuff (I'm on the fence as to whether I should call these attorneys "greedy" or not), which also drives up the cost to repair/replace. SUE the insurance company, SUE the faulted driver(s), sue everyone-which costs, everyone else.
So with the thought of road tax in mind, some states have tried a pilot program which taxes you by the mile. How do they collect the miles driven information? And what else kind of information are they collecting from your car? Where you're going, who you are seeing, etc? Nobody really knows; but "they" keep saying it's 'only mileage'. Yeah sure. But with that in mind, I'm finding out in my own research that there are companies who're collecting data from cars, which is used to send you advertisements. That's all I can really talk about at this time, but it's eye opening. EV's in general are packed FULL of technology which for consumers are convenient--but consumers have no idea what kind of information that technology is gathering and sending, and who knows who is using it. There is some government research going on with this and if/when the truth ever comes out, it is eye opening.
since range is currently a big issue, and lack of charging areas for public (and the cost to charge in some cases), people are still going to have to keep a ICE car to make longer trips. Once people figure out how much less convenient EV is, they'll likely sell the EV or at least park it. Well I guess that's good for EV sellers, and maybe good for EV buyers being able to buy a rat-infested EV for pennies on the dollar, but for the average middle class consumer who can't afford TWO vehicle payments, they're going to have to choose the most convenient and the less expensive one. Currently that is ICE. Question is, for how long-and how long is it gonna be before our leaders put more fees and taxes and such on ICE cars? This would penalize poor and middle class people the most.
Some folks talk about corporate greed. I'm not sure about that. Everything I make goes back to the company after I pay the bills, so effectively my budget ends up at zero-but-I also pay myself, enough to make a living. Some might have a problem with that, saying "you made $14,300 last year you greedy jerk". But with all that said, who's really greedy? Corporations? OR the government who almost always benefits from the many fees and taxes.
If people only knew how much of what a business makes goes right back to every type of government, they MIGHT understand where I'm coming from here. Just a hint? It's over 50% of what I make that goes back to uncle sam in one way or another.
EV's might be less expensive to make, but what about making them less expensive to own, without taxing the ICE vehicles? I think THAT-is going to be the bigger challenge.
think about it. EV's are generally heavier than ICE. The weight is hard on roads. So the roads are going to need more repairs more frequently. Road builders are using less expensive materials, for many reasons (inflation is one), which falls apart sooner. How do those roads get paid? Taxes. Fuel tax. EV's don't use fuels so the challenge is to find a way to tax them such that they pay their fair share as well. That is why currently in this area, EV registrations cost a lot more than ICE. Heavier vehicles cause more damage when they hit other cars--which is one reason car insurance rates have skyrocketed. They also cost a lot more to repair, than ICE counterparts. The cost to repair is often more than just declaring it a total loss. Then you have the many aggressively advertising attorneys that are taking advantage of this stuff (I'm on the fence as to whether I should call these attorneys "greedy" or not), which also drives up the cost to repair/replace. SUE the insurance company, SUE the faulted driver(s), sue everyone-which costs, everyone else.
So with the thought of road tax in mind, some states have tried a pilot program which taxes you by the mile. How do they collect the miles driven information? And what else kind of information are they collecting from your car? Where you're going, who you are seeing, etc? Nobody really knows; but "they" keep saying it's 'only mileage'. Yeah sure. But with that in mind, I'm finding out in my own research that there are companies who're collecting data from cars, which is used to send you advertisements. That's all I can really talk about at this time, but it's eye opening. EV's in general are packed FULL of technology which for consumers are convenient--but consumers have no idea what kind of information that technology is gathering and sending, and who knows who is using it. There is some government research going on with this and if/when the truth ever comes out, it is eye opening.
since range is currently a big issue, and lack of charging areas for public (and the cost to charge in some cases), people are still going to have to keep a ICE car to make longer trips. Once people figure out how much less convenient EV is, they'll likely sell the EV or at least park it. Well I guess that's good for EV sellers, and maybe good for EV buyers being able to buy a rat-infested EV for pennies on the dollar, but for the average middle class consumer who can't afford TWO vehicle payments, they're going to have to choose the most convenient and the less expensive one. Currently that is ICE. Question is, for how long-and how long is it gonna be before our leaders put more fees and taxes and such on ICE cars? This would penalize poor and middle class people the most.
GreensvilleJay
Well-known member
Equipment
BX23-S,57 A-C D-14,58 A-C D-14, 57 A-C D-14,tiller,cults,Millcreek 25G spreader,
re: Ev is a valid option at today's technology level,
Really ? Can you name ONE EV that will replace my '97 F150 please that has the range per tankful of gas, that can be refilled in 15 minutes or less, that can tow a 7000# trailer, minimum of 127 miles, ALL no matter how cold or hot it is. Oh yeah, doesn't report back to who knows who with 'statistics' !!
Really ? Can you name ONE EV that will replace my '97 F150 please that has the range per tankful of gas, that can be refilled in 15 minutes or less, that can tow a 7000# trailer, minimum of 127 miles, ALL no matter how cold or hot it is. Oh yeah, doesn't report back to who knows who with 'statistics' !!
fried1765
Well-known member
Equipment
Kubota L48 TLB, Ford 1920 FEL, Ford 8N, SCAG Liberty Z, Gravely Pro.
No one is saying EV's have to replace all vehicles. But for a whole lot of people who just putter around town to the shops and work and back, an ev might make sense. Less dependence on fossil fuels that fund terrorists is a good thing, cleaner air is a good thing.
If you don't drive more than 100 miles in a day, and you have a place to charge up overnight like a garage, you can save on fuel costs, emit less pollution, lessen your reliance on terrorists. Which of those are a bad thing?
If you don't drive more than 100 miles in a day, and you have a place to charge up overnight like a garage, you can save on fuel costs, emit less pollution, lessen your reliance on terrorists. Which of those are a bad thing?