Electric Car in your future?

[Willabe]

It’s free mileage for everyone when braking is engaged.

But it is more free milage for EVs and HEVs!

 

[lynnmor]

I wonder if there is some battery maintenance system that drains the battery after some idle time.

I have a drone that has rechargeable batteries and it will drain the battery intentionally from full charge to some odd percentage (86 or 68?) so battery life is supposed to be lengthened.

My drone does the same thing, I wonder if EV's do the same wasteful procedure. The idea that one needs to read the owners manual to learn how to babysit their battery is ridiculous, I don't need to play silly games with my gas tank.

 

[lugbolt]

Here is some real world experience with a 2017 Chevrolet Volt ( Electric with a range extending gas motor).
I bought the car 2/8/18 as a demo so I got it for 28% off of MSRP.
I use the car as my primary daily but I also have a Third Gen IROC for fun and track days at GingerMan Raceway over in South Haven, MI. I also have a F350 for towing ect but it only averages 2-3,000 miles a year.
I was not ready to go full electric back then. Now I really don't see a problem with getting a full electric for my next car. That said it will be awhile as I keep my cars at least 10 years.
Now for the big reason I love the Volt is I really could care less what the price of gas is. Since I bought the car To the last electric bill on 10/20/22 I've put in $864.01 in gas and have used $1,668.01 in electric for a total cost per mile of $0.0418 or put another way it costs me on average $4.18 to drive 100 miles. That's paying an average of $0.165331 per kWh since 2018.

You all can bitch and moan, Complain that the "man" is controlling you... Bottom line is the money I'm not spending at the pump is more money that I can save for retirement, doing things I want to do or just having cash in the bank.

Oh and for the folks spreading F,U,D in 5 years since the car was built I have lost only 1.4% of the battery capacity That works out to about 3/4 of a mile on range loss.

Meanwhile every morning the car is fully charged and ready to go.

Nice.

Here is some real world experience from the other side of the counter. Customer shows up and his 6 year old ev has range issues. Says his range started off at 165 miles and now is down to the 70's, consistently. As a technician we have things to look at. Charger output. Wiring. Battery management system. Switches, relays, modules. Basically we rule out all of the vehicle's systems. Then we charge the system and we have a tool that puts a load on the batteries that simulates amp draw of the vehicle's traction motor(s) and A/C, heat, and lighting systems since those are the items that draw the most power. In this case, after charging we were able to achieve an estimated 109 mile range on our simulator, which is acceptable per our training. Contacted customer, customer says that there is definitely something wrong and that his vehicle has a problem. At that point, our testing of the vehicle is complete and we have to suggest him to look at his charging equipment at home. We have an electric company who specializes in this so we recommended them. The elect company goes to the customer's house and looks at the charging setup he's using. Basically a home-made dryer outlet tapped into the box. The wiring is too small and during charging the wire temperature was reaching well into the 150 deg F range. Fire hazard! Electrician recommends installing a dedicated charging post to meet future demands of charging since electric vehicles are being crammed down our throats. And here is where the big issue lies, which is the same situation as mine at home. The customer lives in an older home which has a 100A panel. There are no free spaces in the panel for more breakers. The panel is already rated at max for the service entrance wire size. And the wire from the service entrance to the utility pole is already maxed out. Thus, to add an 80A box (which is standard practice for EV charging, per I think it's J1771(?), he is going to have to pay the poco to upgrade the wiring to 2/0, all 277 feet of it, underground, which runs under his and the neighbor's driveway since they are right next to each other, then he's gonna have to pay to have a new subpanel put in plus the charging post. All told he's looking at (or this is what he told me) about $17,200. Add that to the cost of the electric car. My situation is similar but I'm sititng at an estimated $11,000 as of about 7 months ago when I inquired. Plus the cost of the car. And, NONE of the poco's wiring out here is nearly big enough to cover the amp draw of 22 (or more--that's hwo many houses are in our neighborhood, and only figures in one car per house) charging posts. The poco says they'll have to wait to upgrade everything in the neighborhood, can't put up 4/0 wire when it's fed by 2/0 for example. It has to be upgraded all the way to the substation, which is about 18 miles away.

I have one other customer, has an ev that he's had for about 9 years now. it's got almost 160,000 miles on it. The battery pack is shot. His test range is only 24 miles on a charge, per our testing equipment. That battery pack replacement including labor and all of the parts, $18,000 not counting disposal. He don't want to fix it and I can't blame him. But he can't afford to dispose of it either because the battery supplier who takes our cores is charging US $6.00/lb for used batteries. The battery pack assembly is about 1100 lbs shipping weight, so we'll assume that to be close to what they're gonna hit us for. Times $6.00/lb. That's $6600 in disposal costs alone. I realize it'll come down some but not anytime soon. It's always going to be a charge. So if he doesn't fix it an abandons it, we've gotta come up with $6600 to get rid of just the battery and then the rest of the vehicle can go to scrap. How are we going to recover that $6600? No choice but to bother the owner for it. If he dont' pay it, they'll have to sue him for it. That's another cost that will have to be considered by all sides. More than likely they'll have to start including it into the battery pack cost, and if that's the case the cost of the battery pack may very well end up at $20,000 or more.

There's a whole other list of challenges, but it's getting late and I've got to get gone to work. In my gas car. I'll continue more later when I can.

 

[Bmyers]

Nice.

Here is some real world experience from the other side of the counter. Customer shows up and his 6 year old ev has range issues. Says his range started off at 165 miles and now is down to the 70's, consistently. As a technician we have things to look at. Charger output. Wiring. Battery management system. Switches, relays, modules. Basically we rule out all of the vehicle's systems. Then we charge the system and we have a tool that puts a load on the batteries that simulates amp draw of the vehicle's traction motor(s) and A/C, heat, and lighting systems since those are the items that draw the most power. In this case, after charging we were able to achieve an estimated 109 mile range on our simulator, which is acceptable per our training. Contacted customer, customer says that there is definitely something wrong and that his vehicle has a problem. At that point, our testing of the vehicle is complete and we have to suggest him to look at his charging equipment at home. We have an electric company who specializes in this so we recommended them. The elect company goes to the customer's house and looks at the charging setup he's using. Basically a home-made dryer outlet tapped into the box. The wiring is too small and during charging the wire temperature was reaching well into the 150 deg F range. Fire hazard! Electrician recommends installing a dedicated charging post to meet future demands of charging since electric vehicles are being crammed down our throats. And here is where the big issue lies, which is the same situation as mine at home. The customer lives in an older home which has a 100A panel. There are no free spaces in the panel for more breakers. The panel is already rated at max for the service entrance wire size. And the wire from the service entrance to the utility pole is already maxed out. Thus, to add an 80A box (which is standard practice for EV charging, per I think it's J1771(?), he is going to have to pay the poco to upgrade the wiring to 2/0, all 277 feet of it, underground, which runs under his and the neighbor's driveway since they are right next to each other, then he's gonna have to pay to have a new subpanel put in plus the charging post. All told he's looking at (or this is what he told me) about $17,200. Add that to the cost of the electric car. My situation is similar but I'm sititng at an estimated $11,000 as of about 7 months ago when I inquired. Plus the cost of the car. And, NONE of the poco's wiring out here is nearly big enough to cover the amp draw of 22 (or more--that's hwo many houses are in our neighborhood, and only figures in one car per house) charging posts. The poco says they'll have to wait to upgrade everything in the neighborhood, can't put up 4/0 wire when it's fed by 2/0 for example. It has to be upgraded all the way to the substation, which is about 18 miles away.

I have one other customer, has an ev that he's had for about 9 years now. it's got almost 160,000 miles on it. The battery pack is shot. His test range is only 24 miles on a charge, per our testing equipment. That battery pack replacement including labor and all of the parts, $18,000 not counting disposal. He don't want to fix it and I can't blame him. But he can't afford to dispose of it either because the battery supplier who takes our cores is charging US $6.00/lb for used batteries. The battery pack assembly is about 1100 lbs shipping weight, so we'll assume that to be close to what they're gonna hit us for. Times $6.00/lb. That's $6600 in disposal costs alone. I realize it'll come down some but not anytime soon. It's always going to be a charge. So if he doesn't fix it an abandons it, we've gotta come up with $6600 to get rid of just the battery and then the rest of the vehicle can go to scrap. How are we going to recover that $6600? No choice but to bother the owner for it. If he dont' pay it, they'll have to sue him for it. That's another cost that will have to be considered by all sides. More than likely they'll have to start including it into the battery pack cost, and if that's the case the cost of the battery pack may very well end up at $20,000 or more.

There's a whole other list of challenges, but it's getting late and I've got to get gone to work. In my gas car. I'll continue more later when I can.

Thanks for the very informative, real world experience. I believe items like these are being glossed over by those pushing the EV tech.

 

[Oil pan 4]

I wonder if there is some battery maintenance system that drains the battery after some idle time.

I have a drone that has rechargeable batteries and it will drain the battery intentionally from full charge to some odd percentage (86 or 68?) so battery life is supposed to be lengthened.

That's what I think is happening.

 

[Oil pan 4]

Nice.

Here is some real world experience from the other side of the counter. Customer shows up and his 6 year old ev has range issues. Says his range started off at 165 miles and now is down to the 70's, consistently. As a technician we have things to look at. Charger output. Wiring. Battery management system. Switches, relays, modules. Basically we rule out all of the vehicle's systems. Then we charge the system and we have a tool that puts a load on the batteries that simulates amp draw of the vehicle's traction motor(s) and A/C, heat, and lighting systems since those are the items that draw the most power. In this case, after charging we were able to achieve an estimated 109 mile range on our simulator, which is acceptable per our training. Contacted customer, customer says that there is definitely something wrong and that his vehicle has a problem. At that point, our testing of the vehicle is complete and we have to suggest him to look at his charging equipment at home. We have an electric company who specializes in this so we recommended them. The elect company goes to the customer's house and looks at the charging setup he's using. Basically a home-made dryer outlet tapped into the box. The wiring is too small and during charging the wire temperature was reaching well into the 150 deg F range. Fire hazard! Electrician recommends installing a dedicated charging post to meet future demands of charging since electric vehicles are being crammed down our throats. And here is where the big issue lies, which is the same situation as mine at home. The customer lives in an older home which has a 100A panel. There are no free spaces in the panel for more breakers. The panel is already rated at max for the service entrance wire size. And the wire from the service entrance to the utility pole is already maxed out. Thus, to add an 80A box (which is standard practice for EV charging, per I think it's J1771(?), he is going to have to pay the poco to upgrade the wiring to 2/0, all 277 feet of it, underground, which runs under his and the neighbor's driveway since they are right next to each other, then he's gonna have to pay to have a new subpanel put in plus the charging post. All told he's looking at (or this is what he told me) about $17,200. Add that to the cost of the electric car. My situation is similar but I'm sititng at an estimated $11,000 as of about 7 months ago when I inquired. Plus the cost of the car. And, NONE of the poco's wiring out here is nearly big enough to cover the amp draw of 22 (or more--that's hwo many houses are in our neighborhood, and only figures in one car per house) charging posts. The poco says they'll have to wait to upgrade everything in the neighborhood, can't put up 4/0 wire when it's fed by 2/0 for example. It has to be upgraded all the way to the substation, which is about 18 miles away.

I have one other customer, has an ev that he's had for about 9 years now. it's got almost 160,000 miles on it. The battery pack is shot. His test range is only 24 miles on a charge, per our testing equipment. That battery pack replacement including labor and all of the parts, $18,000 not counting disposal. He don't want to fix it and I can't blame him. But he can't afford to dispose of it either because the battery supplier who takes our cores is charging US $6.00/lb for used batteries. The battery pack assembly is about 1100 lbs shipping weight, so we'll assume that to be close to what they're gonna hit us for. Times $6.00/lb. That's $6600 in disposal costs alone. I realize it'll come down some but not anytime soon. It's always going to be a charge. So if he doesn't fix it an abandons it, we've gotta come up with $6600 to get rid of just the battery and then the rest of the vehicle can go to scrap. How are we going to recover that $6600? No choice but to bother the owner for it. If he dont' pay it, they'll have to sue him for it. That's another cost that will have to be considered by all sides. More than likely they'll have to start including it into the battery pack cost, and if that's the case the cost of the battery pack may very well end up at $20,000 or more.

There's a whole other list of challenges, but it's getting late and I've got to get gone to work. In my gas car. I'll continue more later when I can.

I have a 100 amp panel at our old house had no problem running a vehicle charger off it. But it was an all natural gas house. Gas hot water, gas dryer, gas range, gas heating, I even had an outside gas tap for a grill but usually only used it as a flame thrower.
And that's why I hate service latteral hook ups.

 

[fried1765]

Nice.

Here is some real world experience from the other side of the counter. Customer shows up and his 6 year old ev has range issues. Says his range started off at 165 miles and now is down to the 70's, consistently. As a technician we have things to look at. Charger output. Wiring. Battery management system. Switches, relays, modules. Basically we rule out all of the vehicle's systems. Then we charge the system and we have a tool that puts a load on the batteries that simulates amp draw of the vehicle's traction motor(s) and A/C, heat, and lighting systems since those are the items that draw the most power. In this case, after charging we were able to achieve an estimated 109 mile range on our simulator, which is acceptable per our training. Contacted customer, customer says that there is definitely something wrong and that his vehicle has a problem. At that point, our testing of the vehicle is complete and we have to suggest him to look at his charging equipment at home. We have an electric company who specializes in this so we recommended them. The elect company goes to the customer's house and looks at the charging setup he's using. Basically a home-made dryer outlet tapped into the box. The wiring is too small and during charging the wire temperature was reaching well into the 150 deg F range. Fire hazard! Electrician recommends installing a dedicated charging post to meet future demands of charging since electric vehicles are being crammed down our throats. And here is where the big issue lies, which is the same situation as mine at home. The customer lives in an older home which has a 100A panel. There are no free spaces in the panel for more breakers. The panel is already rated at max for the service entrance wire size. And the wire from the service entrance to the utility pole is already maxed out. Thus, to add an 80A box (which is standard practice for EV charging, per I think it's J1771(?), he is going to have to pay the poco to upgrade the wiring to 2/0, all 277 feet of it, underground, which runs under his and the neighbor's driveway since they are right next to each other, then he's gonna have to pay to have a new subpanel put in plus the charging post. All told he's looking at (or this is what he told me) about $17,200. Add that to the cost of the electric car. My situation is similar but I'm sititng at an estimated $11,000 as of about 7 months ago when I inquired. Plus the cost of the car. And, NONE of the poco's wiring out here is nearly big enough to cover the amp draw of 22 (or more--that's hwo many houses are in our neighborhood, and only figures in one car per house) charging posts. The poco says they'll have to wait to upgrade everything in the neighborhood, can't put up 4/0 wire when it's fed by 2/0 for example. It has to be upgraded all the way to the substation, which is about 18 miles away.

I have one other customer, has an ev that he's had for about 9 years now. it's got almost 160,000 miles on it. The battery pack is shot. His test range is only 24 miles on a charge, per our testing equipment. That battery pack replacement including labor and all of the parts, $18,000 not counting disposal. He don't want to fix it and I can't blame him. But he can't afford to dispose of it either because the battery supplier who takes our cores is charging US $6.00/lb for used batteries. The battery pack assembly is about 1100 lbs shipping weight, so we'll assume that to be close to what they're gonna hit us for. Times $6.00/lb. That's $6600 in disposal costs alone. I realize it'll come down some but not anytime soon. It's always going to be a charge. So if he doesn't fix it an abandons it, we've gotta come up with $6600 to get rid of just the battery and then the rest of the vehicle can go to scrap. How are we going to recover that $6600? No choice but to bother the owner for it. If he dont' pay it, they'll have to sue him for it. That's another cost that will have to be considered by all sides. More than likely they'll have to start including it into the battery pack cost, and if that's the case the cost of the battery pack may very well end up at $20,000 or more.

There's a whole other list of challenges, but it's getting late and I've got to get gone to work. In my gas car. I'll continue more later when I can.

But....but....but...... Our government keeps telling us that it is exceptionally economical, and absolutely environmentally friendly!
Some folks thought the Stanley Steamer was a wonderful idea too!

 

[Oil pan 4]

They are economical if you don't buy a new one. If you by a new one now you are probably paying up to a $10,000 premium now.
We got our leaf as an experiment in 2018 when gasoline was $2 a gallon and no one wanted electric cars and they were almost paying people to take them. So we got a 2011 leaf with dealer replaced 2014 battery. I figured we will drive if for a year or 2 and if we don't like it wait till gas goes back over $3.50 a gallon and everyone freaks out.
Hybrid cars were winning the "alternative drive system race" in the late 1990s and early 2000s, then in 2008 the government declared electric cars to be the winner.
Could have used hybrids and plug in hybrids as transition to electric vehicles, but no the stupid government wanted to go straight to electric vehicles with no one having at home charging or charging available on the roads.

 

[tradosaurus]

Bought a new Chevy Bolt in May of this year. One of the best decisions I've made. Much cheaper to operate and the convenience of charging at home is awesome. Already have 9,000 miles on it.

 

[tradosaurus]

You don't buy a new EV to save gas as the cost of a new one is easily $40K+. That buys a lot of fuel.
The Chevy Bolt is by far the most inexpensive EV at this point in time. $32 fully loaded. I bought mine, new, for $27K.
I think the hybrid would be the way to go for most people that have never owned an EV.
My son just bought a Toyota Rav 4 Hybrid. 40 miles on the charge and 400 miles on the gas tank.

 

[DustyRusty]

The disposal fee will be dealt with the way that New Jersey dealt with the disposal of tires. I have been told that there is a "core" fee on the new tires that are delivered on new vehicles and that the money collected will go to the state. I can see this happening with EVs sometime in the future. The state will collect a fee to compensate for the abandoned battery and the state has to pay for its removal.

A motor vehicle tire fee of $1.50 per tire is imposed on each new motor vehicle tire sold in New Jersey, including new tires that are component parts of a new or used motor vehicle that is either sold or leased, if the transaction is subject to sales tax pursuant to the New Jersey Sales and Use Tax Act. The fee applies to the spare tire sold as part of a motor vehicle, as well as to sales of new tires in connection with a repair or maintenance service. The fee does not apply to the sale of recapped tires. For purposes of the motor vehicle tire fee, a “motor vehicle” includes any vehicle propelled otherwise than by muscular power, including trailers and semitrailers, or any other type of vehicle drawn by a motor vehicle, that is designed for use on the public highways, but excepting a vehicle that runs only upon rails or tracks. A “tire” means a continuous covering encircling a wheel for a motor vehicle in which a person or property is or may be transported or which is or may be drawn upon a road or highway. The accrual method of accounting must be used when reporting the number of tires sold for purposes of the motor vehicle tire fee. Under this method, all new tires sold are reported in the period in which the sale took place, no matter when, or if, payment is actually received from the customer. Exemptions Non-Highway Use Vehicles. New tires that are sold for or as a component part of vehicles that are not designed for use on the public highways are not subject to the motor vehicle tire fee. This includes tires for all-terrain vehicles (ATVs) and certain construction vehicles (e.g., backhoes, forklifts). Exempt-Purchaser Transactions. Sales of new motor vehicle tires to the following purchasers, including tires that are component parts of a motor vehicle that is either sold or leased, are exempt from the fee: • Agencies and instrumentalities of the United States; • Agencies, instrumentalities, public corporations or political subdivisions of the State of New Jersey; • The United Nations or any international organization of which the U.S. is a member; • Qualified exempt organizations that have been authorized under IRC 501(c)(3) and have been issued an Exempt Organization Certificate (ST-5) from the New Jersey Division of Taxation; • Volunteer fire companies, rescue, ambulance, first aid or emergency squads; • Parent-teacher associations; • Veteran’s organizations; • Qualified diplomatic or consular personnel. Exempt-Vehicle Transactions. Sales or leases of the following motor vehicles, including the sale of replacement tires* for such vehicles, are not subject to the motor vehicle tire fee: • Commercial trucks, tractors, semitrailers, and vehicles used in combination, that have a gross vehicle weight rating in excess of 26,000 pounds or are operated exclusively for the carriage of interstate freight or are registered as a farm vehicle under N.J.S.A. 39:3-24 or 25; 2 TIR-100W Instructions (8/16) • Buses for public passenger transportation, to bus companies whose rates are regulated by the ICC or the Department of Transportation, or to carriers engaged in the transportation of children to or from school; • Limousines sold to licensed limousine operators; • Qualified zero emission vehicles (ZEVs), as certified by the New Jersey Department of Environmental Protection. * The sales tax exemption for ZEVs does not include replacement tires; therefore, new replacement tires for a ZEV are subject to both sales tax and the motor vehicle tire fee. For motor vehicle tire fee purposes, these exempt- vehicle transactions must be documented with the Exempt Use Certificate (Form ST-4). Rental Transactions. The motor vehicle tire fee is imposed on sales and leases of motor vehicles, but not on rental transactions, which for purposes of this fee are defined as agreements that are not subject to the accelerated payment of tax under the Sales and Use Tax Act. (For sales and use tax purposes

 

[fried1765]

View attachment 89874

Bought a new Chevy Bolt in May of this year. One of the best decisions I've made. Much cheaper to operate and the convenience of charging at home is awesome. Already have 9,000 miles on it.

Turning 82 this month, thankfully there ain't no way I'm EVER going to have ANYTHING to do with lectric cars, cept maybe seein one stopped on the side of the road.

 

[jimh406]

Much cheaper to operate and the convenience of charging at home is awesome.

Why do you feel it is much cheaper to operate? How much has your electric bill increased and did you put in a dedicated charging circuit?

 

[aaluck]

Absolutely love the EV... in about 50 years when its practical. Until then drill baby drill. This expert on Ted Talks says it better than I ever could.

 

[Vigo]

So Im an ASE master (plus the L3 hybrid/ev cert) technician and i own, as in currently, about 20 gas powered cars, probably another half a dozen small engines, and some diesel tractors of course. I have nothing against gas or diesel engines. But..

There's so much misinformation out there that it's really easy to end up anti-ev based on a bunch of lies.

Building batteries right now is messy. It will get better. Noone alive today can remember how horrendously inefficient the processes of building early internal combustion engines was. Not only that, the consequences of pollution generated in that earlier era are almost totally obscured by the lack of data gathered at the time. Nothing ever goes from invented to perfected overnight, and the reason we are still in the 'steep part of the learning curve' on batteries and EVs is because we weren't working through it earlier. A 50 year old would look like a real dumbass trying to learn to ride a bike, too. Nobody points and laughs at the 5 year old doing it. The auto industry is the 50 year old trying to learn how to do something it should have done a long time ago. As it is, almost the entire plausibility of EVs in the modern era piggybacked off the development of batteries intended for portable consumer devices like laptops (i.e. the early Teslas having a 4-digit number of 18650 cells.. noone would choose such an approach if building from the ground up). Why did that industry get there first? Because they were trying while automakers were lobbying to be protected from having to try. Battery production will become more sustainable with time. The fact that it's not already more sustainable is not intrinsic to batteries, it's the crop we sowed by not starting earlier.

An EV powered 100% by a coal plant is still pollutes less than a gas car.

The grid can support a huge amount of nighttime charging (which is when most people will do it) and the utilities have every opportunity right now to see what is coming and plan for it. It is a for-profit service, whether that makes sense or not, so if a for-profit company can't figure out how to do something profitably they can always take their ball and go home. Wanna take bets on THAT happening? More like utilities will lobby government to interfere with EV adoption because they are trying to wring every penny out of their existing business model without being forced to cope with actual 'free market forces'. They will buy legislation to protect themselves from too rapid an adoption, but it won't be because they can't build the supply. It will just make them uncomfortable to do so. Lobbyists are much cheaper!

Besides, if utility operators in the USA weren't essentially a herd of cats operating in near-anarchy, they could just get their shit together and work with automakers to develop functional 'vehicle to grid' standards. If that were in place, the presence of EVs on the grid would make it damn near invincible. Every EV can store an amount of energy that could power a home for multiple days. We have to be able to produce it in the first place, but we already produce far more at peak times and peak seasons than we do at low points and low seasons, so the capacity to fill up a bunch of batteries at the right time is already there, and will continue to improve.

Batteries in EVs, other than in early-generation cars, do not degrade very rapidly at all. EVs will have lower lifetime repair costs than gas and diesel vehicles by far. This is because cars have battery management systems which coddle the batteries to a far greater extent than we, the operators, coddle any damn thing else about the car! If you buy a used car with 150k miles, you have no idea how many of those miles were zinging off the rev limiter, how many were with low/dirty oil, how many times the car bounced off the bumpstops, how many tires were popped on potholes and curbs along the way, etc etc. With an ev battery, the equivalent answers would all be 'none/zero' because the system does not allow you to mistreat the batteries. Just like someone's great aunt has a couch from 1954 that's perfect because she's such an asshole about anyone who goes near it and has been from day 1, modern EVs are making their batteries last longer than the rest of the car by treating it like 'the princess and the pea'.

Besides, when batteries degrade to the point that they can 'only' power a car for 100 miles or less, it's a real 'cry me a river' scenario when the same amount of energy can STILL power a house for days. The real solution there is 'downcycling', not 'recycling'.

 

[fried1765]

So Im an ASE master (plus the L3 hybrid/ev cert) technician and i own, as in currently, about 20 gas powered cars, probably another half a dozen small engines, and some diesel tractors of course. I have nothing against gas or diesel engines. But..

There's so much misinformation out there that it's really easy to end up anti-ev based on a bunch of lies.

Building batteries right now is messy. It will get better. Noone alive today can remember how horrendously inefficient the processes of building early internal combustion engines was. Not only that, the consequences of pollution generated in that earlier era are almost totally obscured by the lack of data gathered at the time. Nothing ever goes from invented to perfected overnight, and the reason we are still in the 'steep part of the learning curve' on batteries and EVs is because we weren't working through it earlier. A 50 year old would look like a real dumbass trying to learn to ride a bike, too. Nobody points and laughs at the 5 year old doing it. The auto industry is the 50 year old trying to learn how to do something it should have done a long time ago. As it is, almost the entire plausibility of EVs in the modern era piggybacked off the development of batteries intended for portable consumer devices like laptops (i.e. the early Teslas having a 4-digit number of 18650 cells.. noone would choose such an approach if building from the ground up). Why did that industry get there first? Because they were trying while automakers were lobbying to be protected from having to try. Battery production will become more sustainable with time. The fact that it's not already more sustainable is not intrinsic to batteries, it's the crop we sowed by not starting earlier.

An EV powered 100% by a coal plant is still pollutes less than a gas car.

The grid can support a huge amount of nighttime charging (which is when most people will do it) and the utilities have every opportunity right now to see what is coming and plan for it. It is a for-profit service, whether that makes sense or not, so if a for-profit company can't figure out how to do something profitably they can always take their ball and go home. Wanna take bets on THAT happening? More like utilities will lobby government to interfere with EV adoption because they are trying to wring every penny out of their existing business model without being forced to cope with actual 'free market forces'. They will buy legislation to protect themselves from too rapid an adoption, but it won't be because they can't build the supply. It will just make them uncomfortable to do so. Lobbyists are much cheaper!

Besides, if utility operators in the USA weren't essentially a herd of cats operating in near-anarchy, they could just get their shit together and work with automakers to develop functional 'vehicle to grid' standards. If that were in place, the presence of EVs on the grid would make it damn near invincible. Every EV can store an amount of energy that could power a home for multiple days. We have to be able to produce it in the first place, but we already produce far more at peak times and peak seasons than we do at low points and low seasons, so the capacity to fill up a bunch of batteries at the right time is already there, and will continue to improve.

Batteries in EVs, other than in early-generation cars, do not degrade very rapidly at all. EVs will have lower lifetime repair costs than gas and diesel vehicles by far. This is because cars have battery management systems which coddle the batteries to a far greater extent than we, the operators, coddle any damn thing else about the car! If you buy a used car with 150k miles, you have no idea how many of those miles were zinging off the rev limiter, how many were with low/dirty oil, how many times the car bounced off the bumpstops, how many tires were popped on potholes and curbs along the way, etc etc. With an ev battery, the equivalent answers would all be 'none/zero' because the system does not allow you to mistreat the batteries. Just like someone's great aunt has a couch from 1954 that's perfect because she's such an asshole about anyone who goes near it and has been from day 1, modern EVs are making their batteries last longer than the rest of the car by treating it like 'the princess and the pea'.

Besides, when batteries degrade to the point that they can 'only' power a car for 100 miles or less, it's a real 'cry me a river' scenario when the same amount of energy can STILL power a house for days. The real solution there is 'downcycling', not 'recycling'.

Sounds great!
Dig me up in 50 years....I'd love to see how it all worked out.

 

[Oil pan 4]

Lithium-ion battery chemistry has been in use for electronics since the late 1990s.

if utility operators in the USA weren't essentially a herd of cats operating in near-anarchy, they could just get their shit together and work with automakers to develop functional 'vehicle to grid' standards

That's the best way in have seen anyone describe it.
Auto makers and utilities absolutely have no interest in talking to each other. Auto makers don't understand how to do a proper grid tie in and the utilities aren't interested in connecting privately-owned power generation to their grid.

 

[GreensvilleJay]

guys , it's all about 'control'. 'they' do things to force you(well the sheeple ) to come back for more and more of their 'stuff'....
similar BS....
most, if not all walk behind snowblowers have 7/8" crankshafts..so when the engine goes ka-bam, you can't put in a cheapy ,off the shelf, everyone stocks engine.... gotta buy THEIR engine....

and...
Windows10 can't run excel2002... the computer CAN, just not windows10...

 

[dlsmith]

My truck is only driven 3,000 miles a year. I have to keep it on a maintainer or the battery goes dead. Wife's car, most of her trips are short and the car can sit for a week, so it too, has to be on a maintainer. Both because of parasitic draw.

I have the same problem with my '04 Town Car. If I don't drive it for 10 days to two weeks, the battery will be dead or nearly so. I have checked the parasitic draw a couple of times, and it shows only 20-30ma which should only amount to at most .72AH per day or 5 AH per week. That shouldn't drain a battery that's rated at 80AH, but somehow it does. So, I keep a maintainer on it now so it's always topped off when I want to drive it.

 

[GreensvilleJay]

check the voltage on the battery ! It may have dropped below a 'battery ok' reference so the computer won't allow the car to start....
I used to have my remote energy control systems do automatic load testing,every 22.5 minutes and report their conditions..that was 3 decades ago. computers have gotten waaay cheaper, more powerful since then.