exactly what I do. However, not everyone has the ability, time, place, or tools to do that stuff. There are independent "shops" -of which the vast majority are not certified, maybe not factory trained, may lack some special tooling, etc. I've been on both sides of it--and am, as I speak (working on a kawasaki-don't have tools I need, which are dealer only).
Do they really charge that much?
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fried1765
Well-known member
Equipment
Kubota L48 TLB, Ford 1920 FEL, Ford 8N, SCAG Liberty Z, Gravely Pro.
Hmm, well kinda. Depends on the shop of course. "most" dealer techs work on commission, meaning they have a minimum (in my case 15 hours) to bill, but no maximum. So really the slow tech (and I'm not saying he or she is slow mentally, there are weeks where parts ordering gets messed up, not enough volume, etc) gets a lower paycheck than one that gets decent hours. For example, my pay period ends tomorrow at 5:00, and I'm already over 45 hours (4 days working). I could go home early and go fishing-but I'm not because next week is a short week for me. Off Friday, so we're gonna "push" some hours into next week for a "head start". There's ways around everything.
as far as getting good at the job, that takes YEARS to accomplish-and oftentimes a shop manager or owner will expect you to be at or better than minimum (quota?) in the first week-and it can't happen. I've seen in the automotive field where they expected a tech who's been a tech for 5 years (27 years old at the time) to meet quota in 30 days or less. He couldn't do it because of the way the shop managed things, poorly I might add-and the manager called him into the office asking "why", and tech told him exactly why (poor manager, etc) and manager terminated him. I know the manager, I knew the business owner (deceased), and I knew that tech. It was a blessing for the tech, and the business was not profitable under that management model. They were after the dollar more than good customer service-and that never ends well. The dollars will come with the customers if you take care of them.
fried1765
Well-known member
Equipment
Kubota L48 TLB, Ford 1920 FEL, Ford 8N, SCAG Liberty Z, Gravely Pro.
Four years ago I did a 60K sparkplug change on my MB E-350
MB dealer wanted $1, 034.89.
The 6 OEM plugs, and a tube of boot lube, cost me $77.
I shall never forget those exact numbers!
I was 79 then!
Dealer price is MUCH higher now!
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can't never could...until it tried. been rebuilding atv engnes now, going on over 30 plus yrs, yes..the wsm tells you to use such and such tools to do such and such task ?..got news for ya ?, in the real world..we do what ever it takes to make it work, what i mean by this is..just because the manual say's you need a 2k dollar tool to do a task ?..doesn't mean there isn't more than one way to skin a cat ! ( old saying..please don't skin any cats ! )..i've been down this road soooo many times..and i have learned to not go by the book. yes..EVERYONE has the ability, time, place, tools to do the job ?..the real question they should be asking themselves is ?..are they willing to try ?..once you get over this hang up ?..you will make your job sooo much easier..been there, stay there...keep doing it every day.
hand tools and drivers, that kind of stuff...yes.
electronic diagnosis tools, dealer only. Believe me, I've tried. And still am-on this Kawasaki. There is no other way because in order to properly do this job that I'm doing you need to see what the ECU is seeing-NOT what the DVOM says, because there is a stark difference. I proved this to the kawasaki guys waaaaayyy back, around 2000 when the jet ski DI's were starting to give problems. Oh just use your DVOM to set the TPS, sounds legit. DVOM says 0.73v. ECU sees 0.70v, voltage drop through the connections and wiring...and .02v on those things is the difference between a happy engine and a ventilated crankcase. REALLY sensitive.
Diagmaster from Kubota-you can buy it from one of the many scam sites, but you have to get a license key, which is tethered to Kubota, and "they know". Only way you can properly fix the common rail kubota's. People try, and they think they succeed but diagmaster is the only right way. DPF cleaning is a prime example. Sure you can pull it off and have it baked out, reinstall it and it'll work. But you didn't reset the DPF regeneration time frequency and several other parameters-so the job is only half done. People often change injectors, but to do it properly, you need the ability to program in the serial number from the new injectors to which cylinder it's going into. That also goes for some trucks-my brother works on school buses and has to go through all this stuff on a daily basis.
Outboard motors...Yamaha...another one. YDS is the proper way, and I am not sure it's available to anyone but dealers (also dealer licensed and activated--that license costs money too).
Reasoning behind this isn't greed, it's because the government kinda forces it. Particuarly on diesels, one can easily make changes with a keystroke that will affect emissions, and they don't want just anyone having that ability. Nor do they want you to have the ability to burn your own engnie to the ground-although with a few yamaha and kawasaki models (and probably honda, ktm, others), that ability is there, and available to about everyone-but those models do not have much (if any) of a warranty, either.
Polaris, digital wrench. But I think about anyone can buy it, but not everyone can activate it-gotta have dealer credentials.
probably quite a few others as well. John Deere comes to mind as well. Deere got into a peein' match over "proprietary" tooling, don't know if it was settled or not-and don't know what the outcome is/was.
But yea I understand totally where you're going with that, and I've been able to get by with a lot of tools that I've made over the years. Just today I had to change a fuel pump in a Ranger XP 1000, which needs the big nut taken off (about a 4 1/2" diameter). There is a tool specifically for that. In the past i've been able to use channel locks, BUT the proper torque on that PFA nut is 84 lb-ft, and because of where it's located, you are NOT going to get 84 lb-ft on it with channel locks, period. That tool is required to do it properly. Lots of guys do it with those groove joint pliers as I have for years on older models, but I had to buy the tool. The right tool, it takes maybe 5 minutes to change the pump, and you can actually torque it properly with a torque wrench. Or use groove-joint plier, and "hope" you got it tight enough, to properly compress the gasket so it doesn't leak. All it'd take is a little bit of a leak there and someone smoking a cigarette & drop it, and then you have a big problem. A bigger problem when they find out you didn't properly torque it...now YOU (the tech) are carrying more liability--and that is a real issue. Dealer is gonna say "why didn't you use the PFA nut socket?"--cause you didn't have one, and dealer is gonna try to protect themselves but ultimately you, the tech, are the one who was liable-and that will loom over you for years, decades. I know someone who went through something similar and trust me when I say this-it's a nightmare. Avoid it if possible.
on the pfa nut, one could change it yourself at home, saves an hour's labor. But then you gotta buy a $50 set of groove-joint pliers, take half the machine apart to make access on some of them (some of them you take the entire front end off and remove the fuel tank...I gotta do one tomorrow). OR, option #2, make the tool. Easy enough. 1/4" thick plate of steel, measure it out, cut it out, then cut the grooves in it to it'll fit over the projections on the nut, then bend another piece into a c-channel shape, so it fits across the top of the nut, then put a square hole in it so your ratchet fits. Now you just bought a $5 piece of 1/4" plate from the scrap yard, you bought a $150 grinder to cut grooves in it and to clean the rust off, you bought a $1000 (or whatever) welder to weld the pieces, a $100 vise to bend the metal, and several cutting tools, and you spent the entire day (8-9 hours) making that tool. Paying the dealer $150 in labor to do it is pretty nice at that point. But no, that owner is going to make the tool, and post online that they did it for $5. LOL.
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oh i deff agree with you on some jobs require that '' one '' spec tool to complete the job. i mostly work on honda atvs, motorcycles, small engines. i stay far away from the other brands in the atv world..lol. i will admit, i'm more mechanical, than electrical, engines on honda atvs, atcs is my world. when it comes to all that ele crap ?..yeah...i do have my limits..lol.
fried1765
Well-known member
Equipment
Kubota L48 TLB, Ford 1920 FEL, Ford 8N, SCAG Liberty Z, Gravely Pro.
Not a valid comparison!
No logical person goes out to specifically BUY those tools!
They already own the tools, or they would not consider doing the job!
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TheOldHokie
Well-known member
Lifetime Member
Equipment
L3901/LA525, B7200DT/B1630, G2160/RCK60, G2460/RCK60
Bmyers
Well-known member
Lifetime Member
Equipment
Grand L3560 with LA805 loader, EA 55" Wicked Grapple, SBX72 BB, LP 1272 mower
It is interesting to me the discussion of cost. We have a service department as one the divisions at the company I work for. The services techs were complaining about what we charge per hour and what they make (which are all union jobs).
So, we held a class with all the techs. We showed them where the money went. How much went to paying their hourly wage, their benefits, their retirement fund. Then we went into the company overhead cost, worker comp, liability, licensing cost, the office staff that does their billing and scheduling and all the additional cost involved. Then broke down the cost of their equipment, fuel, maintenance, and tools. Explained the billing cycle and how when the client gets the bills it doesn't just magically appear in the checking account, but you want your check each week which is why you have credit lines and such as a company which is an additional cost.
Even showed them how much it was costing just to have the class to educate them on the matter. Yet, it was money well spent. Once they understood all the factors, all but two of them had a dramatic change in their attitude and we have noticed them taking much better care of the equipment.
Several had the idea that the company was just making this huge amounts of money off of their labor, but when shown the actual breakdown and realizing that when we hit 10-15% profit margin on a job we are pleased.
So, we held a class with all the techs. We showed them where the money went. How much went to paying their hourly wage, their benefits, their retirement fund. Then we went into the company overhead cost, worker comp, liability, licensing cost, the office staff that does their billing and scheduling and all the additional cost involved. Then broke down the cost of their equipment, fuel, maintenance, and tools. Explained the billing cycle and how when the client gets the bills it doesn't just magically appear in the checking account, but you want your check each week which is why you have credit lines and such as a company which is an additional cost.
Even showed them how much it was costing just to have the class to educate them on the matter. Yet, it was money well spent. Once they understood all the factors, all but two of them had a dramatic change in their attitude and we have noticed them taking much better care of the equipment.
Several had the idea that the company was just making this huge amounts of money off of their labor, but when shown the actual breakdown and realizing that when we hit 10-15% profit margin on a job we are pleased.
TheOldHokie
Well-known member
Lifetime Member
Equipment
L3901/LA525, B7200DT/B1630, G2160/RCK60, G2460/RCK60
Does not matter what business you are in. Anybody thats ever had to budget an inhouse project or prepare a contract proposal is intimately familiar with the difference between employee wages and manhour costs.
Dan
mcmxi
Well-known member
Lifetime Member
Equipment
***Current*** M6060HDC, MX6000HSTC & GL7000 ***Sold*** MX6000HST & BX25DLB
Currently an F250 Super Duty 7.3L and an M1078, but I won't be putting the latter on a lift! That thing weighs 16,000lb or more.
My F250 weighs 8,720lb based on the scale at the landfill last week and would have been over 9,000lb if I hadn't removed and sold the SnugTop shell recently. Last week's weight was with a near empty fuel tank and near empty JohnDow transfer/storage tank in the bed. If the fuel tank and transfer tank were full that'd add another 560lb or so assuming the addition of 70 gallons of diesel. I often have quite a lot of towing related equipment in drawers in the bed (Decked system) along with various tools so it all adds up. Some might suggest waiting until the fuel tanks are near empty and/or to remove all equipment from the bed and cab, but I like options and would rather have the choice to not add more work to a job.
I wouldn't be warm and fuzzy lifting up that truck on a lift rated for 10,000lb. I don't know what the factor of safety is on these lifts, and it's likely that the capacities are based on ideal conditions. Add in the fact that I will most likely buy a bigger truck in the not-to-distant-future and would rather have a 12,000lb model.
TheOldHokie
Well-known member
Lifetime Member
Equipment
L3901/LA525, B7200DT/B1630, G2160/RCK60, G2460/RCK60
The ANSI/ALI standard safety factor on an auto lift is 1.5 and a 10K lift is capable of safely lifting its rated load.
As long as the base is properly attached to the floor and the vehicle is properly loaded a 10K two post asymetric lift will handle a Ford F350 4x4 with crew cab, 8' box, and dual rear wheels.
If the base is not properly attached or the vehicle is improperly loaded it does not matter what the lift is rated for.
Dan
I just did my 400 hr service on my B2650 and it came to about $200. This was for everything except for the air filters and the engine oil.
mcmxi
Well-known member
Lifetime Member
Equipment
***Current*** M6060HDC, MX6000HSTC & GL7000 ***Sold*** MX6000HST & BX25DLB
Interesting. I've never researched FoS for automotive lifts since I've never gone through the process of buying one, so it's good to know that the ALI requirement is "150% load with no visual deformation of the lift’s structural elements or components".
I'd probably buy something like this model and will likely look into it more seriously once I have the first pole barn built this year. I could put a thick concrete pad in one corner of the barn rather than do the whole thing.
Atlas Equipment Platinum PVL12 ALI Certified 12,000 lb. Capacity 2-Post Lift
Atlas Equipment Platinum PVL12 ALI Certified 12,000 lb. Capacity 2-Post Lift
www.tooltopia.com
This is an interesting read when it comes to automotive lifts. It's written by BendPak in an attempt to show possible customers that their products are superior, but still interesting.
8 False Claims About Two-Post Lifts - BendPak
A successful car lift business is built on facts, not vague or empty claims. The following 8 statements are all false and we’d like to clear a few things up.
Runs With Scissors
Well-known member
Equipment
L2501 TLB , Grappel, Brush Hog, Box Blade, Ballast box, Forks, Tiller, PH digger
I had the above on my hoist for a week waiting for parts.
Never a worry.
The only problem is/was the length. I only had about an inch before I was going to hit the door.
Runs With Scissors
Well-known member
Equipment
L2501 TLB , Grappel, Brush Hog, Box Blade, Ballast box, Forks, Tiller, PH digger
That would definitely work... Nice lift.Interesting. I've never researched FoS for automotive lifts since I've never gone through the process of buying one, so it's good to know that the ALI requirement is "150% load with no visual deformation of the lift’s structural elements or components".
I'd probably buy something like this model and will likely look into it more seriously once I have the first pole barn built this year. I could put a thick concrete pad in one corner of the barn rather than do the whole thing.
Atlas Equipment Platinum PVL12 ALI Certified 12,000 lb. Capacity 2-Post Lift
Atlas Equipment Platinum PVL12 ALI Certified 12,000 lb. Capacity 2-Post Lift
This is an interesting read when it comes to automotive lifts. It's written by BendPak in an attempt to show possible customers that their products are superior, but still interesting.
8 False Claims About Two-Post Lifts - BendPak
A successful car lift business is built on facts, not vague or empty claims. The following 8 statements are all false and we’d like to clear a few things up.www.bendpak.com
I like the single point lock release. I always disliked working on a 2 point release.
You certainly will not regret it. You will wonder how you got along without it all these years...Trust me
TheOldHokie
Well-known member
Lifetime Member
Equipment
L3901/LA525, B7200DT/B1630, G2160/RCK60, G2460/RCK60
I would have had one of these under each bumper shortly after it was lowered onto the locks.
I had the above on my hoist for a week waiting for parts.
Never a worry.
The only problem is/was the length. I only had about an inch before I was going to hit the door.
Everything I lift gets at least one....
Dan
mcmxi
Well-known member
Lifetime Member
Equipment
***Current*** M6060HDC, MX6000HSTC & GL7000 ***Sold*** MX6000HST & BX25DLB
I used to use my friend's lift in Hawaii at his shop, and as helpful as it was at times, it wasn't as convenient as only being a few feet away from my tools. A lift is in my future for sure. Crawling around under vehicles was old 20 years ago, it's much older now.That would definitely work... Nice lift.
I like the single point lock release. I always disliked working on a 2 point release.
You certainly will not regret it. You will wonder how you got along without it all these years...Trust me
16K? Are you looking at the right number?