Diagnostic tool K-OBD ACE

[WI_Hedgehog]

I agree in general but would like to make a couple points.

1. Software and documentation is not free. Every owner needs an operations manual but not every owner needs a service manual. I would expect to pay a reasonable fee for service manuals and software distribution. Additional fees for periodic updates and maintenance.
2. OEMs compete and ECUs are key to performance and competitive edge. Thats not going to get standardized anymore than you would standardize an engine.
3. Interfaces are what gets standardized and right now outside of OBD2 there are no "open source" diagnostic or maintenance standards. Thats another competitive area but there are enough generic functions (e.g. coding an injector or battery) that some baseline standard COULD be developed. I dont see any industry interest in that and I dont see that happening without OEM support. From a historical perspective OBD2 was a CARB regulatory mandate that they were forced to adopt.

Dan

1.) Printed material I expect to pay for. Downloadable material is mostly free to distribute (hence so many free software packages and servers). I wouldn't mind paying $10 to download a shop manual to pay for the Internet server maintenance fee and such.

Related: A whole business can be run off Free and Open Source Software (FOSS) for $0 (web server, applications, code authoring software, word processing, e-mail, spreadsheets, database, etc) so free or reasonably priced access to ECUs and auto-specific documentation is at least "reasonably possible."

2.) ECUs are very reliable computers, some do more, some do less. There's no reason making 4 tiers of units per application wouldn't fit most applications. Coding how those work can be proprietary but the diagnostic & service interface could be standardized.

Related: Computers to run FOSS, and the R/C electronics to fly planes/helis/etc. is not free, but very affordably priced. People buy the hardware from reliable manufacturers, the software and documentation is free.

3.) I've seen basic race application ECUs, but nothing approaching the major OEM complexity. There is a project or two (speeduino, rusEFI) that's open-source, so there's hope.

Related: Arduino and Raspberry Pi platforms are open-source platforms with many add-on controllers from third-parties. The third-party documentation and interface is "free" as in covered by the price of buying the hardware module. I've read up on modules in advance, the full docs are readily available without purchase as an incentive to see if the module is a good fit, and if so how to use it once you buy it.

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Of course, there has to be a will to make it happen if it's going to happen. In the R/C (hobby) industry it happened, which is impressive given the small number of people involved in R/C compared to the general population, but it is a hobby. Coding and hardware for a highly regulated industry is certainly different, which I think is the core of what you're saying, and that I completely agree with.

 

[Hugo Habicht]

I don't like it one bit BUT i can understand why companies like TESLA, etc... protect their coding, science, software, etc.... cause they invest so much time and money inventing self driving cars or even flying cars, or stuff to meet gov't emission guidelines, etc.... Why would they invest any money into these new technologies if say a foreign or even local competitor could just copy it and have "0" science and technology costs?

So JD or Kubota or whoever protecting their investment in how to meet emission requirements, or make their stuff more fuel efficient or make their stuff more reliable is understood on this end. Not liked but I understand why.

Giving end users test access does not reveal any of the IP used inside their controllers.

So no, this has nothing to do with protecting their software investment.

It has to do with ripping off garages and other users of their software. Yearly "license" fees are a clear sign for that. Nobody can tell me that it cost them even a penny if I use the test software I bought in the next year.

And all manufacturers are still screwing their customers even if they would give the test systems away for free. Charging $2500 for an ECU that they buy for $60 from their supplier is appalling.

 

[TheOldHokie]

Giving end users test access does not reveal any of the IP used inside their controllers.

So no, this has nothing to do with protecting their software investment.

It has to do with ripping off garages and other users of their software. Yearly "license" fees are a clear sign for that. Nobody can tell me that it cost them even a penny if I use the test software I bought in the next year.

And all manufacturers are still screwing their customers even if they would give the test systems away for free. Charging $2500 for an ECU that they buy for $60 from their supplier is appalling.

No different than a $2500 hydraulic cylinder that cost the OEM $60.

I just had a window regulator replaced by a local repair shop. They charged me $250 for a Dorman part from the local NAPA. I can walk into any NAPA and buy that exact same part for $125 and pay half as much in sales tax. I am sure the shop's wholesale cost was less than my retail cost.

Thats a business model i dont see changing.

Dan

 

[Hugo Habicht]

No different than a $2500 hydraulic cylinder that cost the OEM $60.

Well, I think there is a difference. With a hydraulic cylinder (or similar parts) there are other third party suppliers, so there is competition and younhave a choice.

An electronic device, unless it is simple, will only be available from the original manufacturer. And they can charge anything they like.

 

[TheOldHokie]

Well, I think there is a difference. With a hydraulic cylinder (or similar parts) there are other third party suppliers, so there is competition and younhave a choice.

An electronic device, unless it is simple, be available from the original manufacturer. And they can charge anything they like.

IMO the cylinder is an even bigger ripoff.

As far as monopolies go suppliers like Delphi, Denso, Bosch, etc. dont have competitors? You would know better than me - how much of an ECU is engineered and/or coded by the vehicle OEM?

Dan

 

[Hugo Habicht]

As far as monopolies go suppliers like Delphi, Denso, Bosch, etc. dont have competitors? You would know better than me - how much of an ECU is engineered and/or coded by the vehicle OEM?

I would say none of automotive / agricultiral OEM build their own electronics at this stage, all done by external suppliers. But other suppliers in this business cannot provide replacements because they would not have the protocols (Bus systems) or the specification of connected devices or required behaviour when sensors fail. And contract agreements prevent the original suppliers to offer aftermarket units.

So with modern electronics in vehicles you are at the merci of the manufacturer. Despite having some knowledge in electronics I therefore chose to not drive any vehicles built after around 1990.

Not sure about the USA but in Europe around that time pretty much all car manufacturers built vehicles to last a long time. Looking at my lawn tractor with over 6000 hours on the clock and built around 1990 too I am tempted to believe the same applies to Kubota products as well.

 

[TheOldHokie]

I would say none of automotive / agricultiral OEM build their own electronics at this stage, all done by external suppliers. But other suppliers in this business cannot provide replacements because they would not have the protocols (Bus systems) or the specification of connected devices or required behaviour when sensors fail. And contract agreements prevent the original suppliers to offer aftermarket units.

So with modern electronics in vehicles you are at the merci of the manufacturer. Despite having some knowledge in electronics I therefore chose to not drive any vehicles built after around 1990.

Not sure about the USA but in Europe around that time pretty much all car manufacturers built vehicles to last a long time. Looking at my lawn tractor with over 6000 hours on the clock and built around 1990 too I am tempted to believe the same applies to Kubota products as well.

Right this very minute I have a 2007 BMW 335xi with a flakey ECU. It controls functions like windows, comfort control system, door locks, lights. etc. Its working but throwing occassional errors. The ECU is in the driver side footwell and can be removed in a matter of minutes.

BMW wants around $500 for a new (refurbished??) ECU and another $500 plus to R&R and code it to my vehicle.

I can remove the ECU myself and send it to a third party repair service. They will repair and return it to me ready to plug and play for $199. If they cannot repair it they charge $500 for a refurbished plug and play ECU that they will preload with the data from my old ECU. Obviosly, if my old ECU is so damaged it cannot be read my only recourse is a "new" ECU from the OEM.

I like my 2007 car far more than anything made two decades earlier and have no problem with this cost or business model. When I replace this car it will be with something two decades newer and most likely electric.

Dan

 

[GreensvilleJay]

curious about 'ACE'. What happens when you don't renew the contract? Does the diagnostic computer require WIFI to operate ? Will it upgrade your ECM after a fuel injector is replaced ?

At least with cars you CAN shop around. I got a COMPLETE Dorman window regulator( mechanics + motor ) from crappytire for about a 1/3rd that Honda tried to bill me for .

Hmm 2500$ cylinder vs computer. Computer wins hands down for higher profit margin. chips and parts are super cheap in quantity. Used to buy $1,000s per month, crazy 'volume discount' deal. Add to that lightning fast robotic assembly and 'captive' market. It's not hte 'box' you're paying for ,it's the 'code'. While the cylinder has far fewer parts,some are precision made and far slower to make. Also semi custom, low volume compared to the guts of a computer.

What's always amazed me is that people pay $1500-$2000 for a smart phone that costs less than $47 to make.

 

[dsaw72]

My immediate issue is with a Takeuchi TL10 with a Kubota 3800 engine that's having DEF issues. It's at level 4, so it won't regen. I bought it in this condition, but suspect it spent a lot of time idling (government owned). I've since injected a bunch of DEF cleaning chemicals, and it seems to have opened up; but I need to reset the code because it won't manual regen. I was about to pull the trigger on spending $1200 on a Chinese knockoff adaptor and probably hacked Diagmaster software. However, I'm seeing several quotes online for the ACE kit from Kubota dealers for $1852. Does that cost cover everything I need to hookup and run it? It's a bit much for just one skidsteer, but I also have a L4240 tractor, a Bobcat S150 w/Kubota engine (Neither of which have any issues right now), and a Multiquip welder w/Kubota engine with unknown random shutdown issues. So I have a few Kubota engines to spread the cost around. Depending on the annual cost, I'd probably drop it after a year and wait till I have an issue to reup.

 

[whitetiger]

My immediate issue is with a Takeuchi TL10 with a Kubota 3800 engine that's having DEF issues. It's at level 4, so it won't regen. I bought it in this condition, but suspect it spent a lot of time idling (government owned). I've since injected a bunch of DEF cleaning chemicals, and it seems to have opened up; but I need to reset the code because it won't manual regen. I was about to pull the trigger on spending $1200 on a Chinese knockoff adaptor and probably hacked Diagmaster software. However, I'm seeing several quotes online for the ACE kit from Kubota dealers for $1852. Does that cost cover everything I need to hookup and run it? It's a bit much for just one skidsteer, but I also have a L4240 tractor, a Bobcat S150 w/Kubota engine (Neither of which have any issues right now), and a Multiquip welder w/Kubota engine with unknown random shutdown issues. So I have a few Kubota engines to spread the cost around. Depending on the annual cost, I'd probably drop it after a year and wait till I have an issue to reup.

Takeuchi does not use a Kubota spec engine; they have their own engines, which Kubota builds and sells to them. They have their own support and warranty system. Kubota KOBD ACE will not plug in or communicate with a Takeuchi spec engine.

Takeuchi electronics and operating programs are different from Kubota's.

 

[ruger1980]

Takeuchi uses Diagmaster, it is just licensed to their dealers and to engines produced for them. Your best bet is to load it on a trailer and take it to your local dealer.

 

[dsaw72]

Most of the DST-i's advertised as working for Kubota and Takeuchi, so I thought the ACE would also work on both; but I'm no expert.