Def delete question... A continuation

[ruger1980]

Oh and by the way lean or rich is a description of mixture and does not apply to a diesel engine as been mentioned. All diesels should be running in an oxygen positive condition at almost all times

 

[John Connolly]

The main issue here is that the emissions have been deleted on your machine. And I assume you have been a party to this as well as you dealer. I would not admit this by the way. The OEM will have nothing to do with this scenario as it is in violation of Federal law. They may admonish the dealer behind the scenes but they will most likely not help you of you have requested the delete.

I have no idea what the dealer and their mechanic did. I told them I wanted it repaired correctly. Every step of the way, I purchased what they advised. It started as an emissions issue and then kept going until I basically purchased a new engine, part for part. The dealer has be over a barrel. Not only the cost of the unit, but also the loss in value from all the attachments I can no longer use.

in my opinion, they are unfair and deceptive. I have not been a party to this, as the dealer will not provide me any written or verbal report on what happened or current status. I trusted their knowledge and integrity, and shouldn’t have.

Now I am just trying to get some salvage value out of what is left. We are a small not for profit family ranch, whose mission is to donate hunting events and retreats to veterans and clergy. We used the SVL 95 to basically fill feeders and grade roads. This expense has wiped us out. Kubota and the dealer knows this. They don’t care. They have enough new business to afford to pursue this business model. I should have listened to the consumers who have gone through this ringer, and switched to Case and Deere. My goal is to salvage all my Kubota heavy equipment and implements and find one good new tractor to maintain what’s left.

 

[lugbolt]

if the dealer knowingly tampered with emissions devices such that they are no longer able to perform the duty that they are supposed to, that's a federal deal-and a breach of dealer agreements, punishable by losing their dealer, fines if it's found to be illegal, etc. Kubota does not mess around, either.

I would bet that, if this is the cut-and-dried case, Kubota will help you, but you gotta call corporate and explain to them what's going on. The customer service line is "manned" by folks that are not mechanical in nature, so remember that. BUT--they can get a case started, and at that point they'll get the division service rep(s) involved, and that's when stuff starts happening.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

John,
You're last post is a poor attempt at pity!

We are a small not for profit family ranch, whose mission is to donate hunting events and retreats to veterans and clergy. We used the SVL 95 to basically fill feeders and grade roads.

Earlier you stated:

when they sold me a package deal, with a Diamond timber cutter.

That unit isn't for filling feeders and grading roads, That's a production Timber cutting unit, not something a not for profit would buy without some sence of return for the investment.

Not for profit ranch my backside!

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Basically and simply in a nut shell.

Kubota Corporate isn't going to do a thing for you!
In fact raise enough stink and they will come after you and your business along with the Dealer.
I know that some of the Kubota Corporate people look at this forum from time to time.

You and your dealer have done illegal things by altering an emissions controlled vehicle.
You and your Dealer are both in the wrong.
Get a good Lawyer and hope they can dig you out of the hole you've dug yourself into.

 

[John Connolly]

if the dealer knowingly tampered with emissions devices such that they are no longer able to perform the duty that they are supposed to, that's a federal deal-and a breach of dealer agreements, punishable by losing their dealer, fines if it's found to be illegal, etc. Kubota does not mess around, either.

I would bet that, if this is the cut-and-dried case, Kubota will help you, but you gotta call corporate and explain to them what's going on. The customer service line is "manned" by folks that are not mechanical in nature, so remember that. BUT--they can get a case started, and at that point they'll get the division service rep(s) involved, and that's when stuff starts happening.

This is true. I spent a lot of time documenting everything to a Kubota rep on the phone. Afterwards, she said it would not be referred to Kubota management, but only sent to the dealer. She did provide me a complaint number.

it appears that Kubota designed a Tier 4 engine to be EPA emissions compliant, that was cost competitive, but did not disclose their mechanical and business model was designed for failure, at the later cost of customers. It also appears that the driving force behind emissions reprogramming by third parties, is Kubota’s refusal to warrant emission related parts. In my case, the heated urea line sensors were malfunctioning causing the engine to go in to a limp mode. While still under warranty, the urea pump was loosing efficiency, as the root cause. I made a timely emissions warranty claim, but was denied. I would not be surprised if a class action claim develops. I hear this from all the Kubota owners I know. Once their emissions warranty expires, it becomes infeasible to operate. The dealer employees push the reprogramming as a solution, but throw customers under the bus when their profit is jeopardized by poor judgement and workmanship. In my opinion.

 

[Mark_BX25D]

They may admonish the dealer behind the scenes

That might depend on whether or not they know of him doing this in the past. If it's not his first rodeo, he might be losing his dealership. If it's the first time, I'm betting they'll document a warning (at the very least) to cover themselves with the feds.

but they will most likely not help you of you have requested the delete.

All warranty from Kubota went out the window with the DEF delete. Poof.


Straight from the Kubota's mouth:

As the engine owner, you should be aware, however, that KUBOTA may deny your warranty
coverage if your engine or a part has failed due to abuse, vandalism, neglect, improper
maintenance or unapproved modifications.

I'm pretty sure Kubota won't touch this situation with a 10 foot pole. It's between the OP's lawyer and the dealership, and hope nobody drops a dime to the EPA.


Hope it was worth it. (It wasn't.)

 

[cthomas]

So basically you and the dealership did something illegal and it didn't work out, so now you want Kubota Corp. to fix it for free? As a GM dealership tech I am remembering all the issues I have seen with aftermarket programmer's that have destroyed the engine and the customer wants it to be GM to pay for the customer own actions. How about you call up your insurance company and tell them your a complete idiot and you want them to pay for YOUR mistakes(seen it before with people driving thru deep water and destroying engine). Or maybe trade in/sell and this time do the research and verify what you are buying is capable of doing what your want to do with it. This is why like others my diesel truck is stock and my tractor does not have tier4 emissions. Hope you kept all the extra parts for the emission system as those get expensive. Sorry in advance for being a jerk but, sometimes the truth hurts.

 

[Mark_BX25D]

it appears that Kubota designed a Tier 4 engine to be EPA emissions compliant, that was cost competitive, but did not disclose their mechanical and business model was designed for failure, at the later cost of customers. It also appears that the driving force behind emissions reprogramming by third parties, is Kubota’s refusal to warrant emission related parts.

Even if all of that were true (it isn't), you threw away every bit of legal standing you may have had when you had the dealer illegally modify the emissions system.

What part of ILLEGAL don't you understand?


You have a fight with the dealer. Keep that fight quietly between your lawer and their lawyers and you might come out of this without too much damage.

Try to make a case against Kubota and you'll be digging your own grave.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

This thread is The Unlocked Thread because the OP thought it was appropriate to delete the original.

This is a continuation of the original now archived thread.
That thread will be preserved for future use.

Add comment, advice but please be civil about it.

 

[JerryMT]

This thread is The Unlocked Thread because the OP thought it was appropriate to delete the original.

This is a continuation of the original now archived thread.
That thread will be preserved for future use.

Add comment, advice but please be civil about it.

In my opinion, this forum is not the proper place to discuss this issue. The OP needs to get a lawyer to deal with this problem.

 

[DaveFromMi]

Seems like a lot of new members have been inquiring about DPF delete. Just sayin'
I love my DPF

 

[MapleLeafFarmer]

Seems like a lot of new members have been inquiring about DPF delete. Just sayin'
I love my DPF

I wouldn't say I love my DPF but since they came out I have yet to have any problems with the 3 tractors I have owned with them. Have worked flawlessly w/o any problems and on a side note nice to see no longer have the carbon problem on my LHS loader arms anymore.

 

[Daferris]

I wouldn't say I love my DPF but since they came out I have yet to have any problems with the 3 tractors I have owned with them. Have worked flawlessly w/o any problems and on a side note nice to see no longer have the carbon problem on my RHS loader arms anymore.

The issue the OP had is not the DPF (Diesel particulate filter) but rather the DEF (Diesel Exhaust Fluid Also know as/ sometimes called Selective Catalytic Reduction or SCR) system. DEF is only on 75+HP engines. 26 to 74 horse engines do not have a DEF system but rather only the DPF or DOC ( Diesel Oxidation Catalyst).

All of witch are the reason I have a under 26Hp tractor as I can get by with just 20HP at the PTO. And well my LX2610 is also a tier 4 engine the regulations do not require it to have any after treatment devices. Just a limiter on the fuel flow to hold down the soot on acceleration.

 

[MapleLeafFarmer]

The issue the OP had is not the DPF (Diesel particulate filter) but rather the DEF (Diesel Exhaust Fluid Also know as/ sometimes called Selective Catalytic Reduction or SCR) system. DEF is only on 75+HP engines. 26 to 74 horse engines do not have a DEF system but rather only the DPF or DOC ( Diesel Oxidation Catalyst).

All of witch are the reason I have a under 26Hp tractor as I can get by with just 20HP at the PTO. And well my LX2610 is also a tier 4 engine the regulations do not require it to have any after treatment devices. Just a limiter on the fuel flow to hold down the soot on acceleration.

thanks but I was replying to #31 not the OP.

For me I would love to be able to still buy new pre tier 4 etc... units but simply not in the cards anymore.
Lots of no emissions tractors still running after many many many decades. A new battery and a squirt of ether into any of the old 70+ year iron I have and I am sure most will still run. I highly doubt any of our new tractors with the ecu's/def/dpf/etc.... will be running after 70 years If I get 10 - 20 years out of my new stuff I guess I will be pleased.

 

[jyoutz]

I wouldn't say I love my DPF but since they came out I have yet to have any problems with the 3 tractors I have owned with them. Have worked flawlessly w/o any problems and on a side note nice to see no longer have the carbon problem on my LHS loader arms anymore.

I’m extremely pleased with my near new MX tractor with tier 4. I sold a 21 year old tractor when I bought new. The old tractor gave me a sinus headache from the exhaust fumes every time I used it for more than 30 minutes. I can use my new tractor all day with no sinus headache. Clean is good.

 

[whitetiger]

DEF (Diesel Exhaust Fluid Also know as/ sometimes called Selective Catalytic Reduction or SCR) system.

DEF is not known as SCR; DEF is injected into the inlet end of the SCR during Regeneration They are two completely different items.
The OP stated in his first post that the DPF had been deleted so it probably is not causing him problems.

He also claimed he paid a dealer $25,000. to rebuild his engine that he could have replaced with a remanufactured one for $13,000. plus, labor to R&R.

His story changes and does not sound plausible.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

DEF is not known as SCR; DEF is injected into the inlet end of the SCR during Regeneration They are two completely different items.
The OP stated in his first post that the DPF had been deleted so it probably is not causing him problems.

He also claimed he paid a dealer $25,000. to rebuild his engine that he could have replaced with a remanufactured one for $13,000. plus, labor to R&R.

His story changes and does not sound plausible.

You missed where he said:

Then my dealer told me my only option was to purchase a new Kubota engine for $47,700.

$47,700 for as you said a $13000 replacement?
That's the interesting one!

 

[DaveFromMi]

thanks but I was replying to #31 not the OP.

For me I would love to be able to still buy new pre tier 4 etc... units but simply not in the cards anymore.
Lots of no emissions tractors still running after many many many decades. A new battery and a squirt of ether into any of the old 70+ year iron I have and I am sure most will still run. I highly doubt any of our new tractors with the ecu's/def/dpf/etc.... will be running after 70 years If I get 10 - 20 years out of my new stuff I guess I will be pleased.

My bad. Must be dyslexia. I don't really love my DPF

 

[GreensvilleJay]

re: engine costs....

The 47K number may be a COMPLETE, drop in factory fresh engine and includes ALL labour ?

The 13K number may be a 'short block assy', so it's missing a few things like starter,air filter,etc ?

What I'd like to know is did the dealer sell the tractor WITH the 'tuner' ? If yes, that would be very,very important information.

 

[whitetiger]

re: engine costs....

The 47K number may be a COMPLETE, drop in factory fresh engine and includes ALL labour ?

Kubota's complete engine is priced in the low $30,000. range for this SVL95-2.

The 13K number may be a 'short block assy', so it's missing a few things like starter,air filter,etc ?

This is a REMANUFACTURED complete engine sold by an independent rebuilder, not a short block.

What I'd like to know is did the dealer sell the tractor WITH the 'tuner' ? If yes, that would be very,very important information.