D1105 Rebuilt - now won't run.

Jim L.

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It seems that the cams for the injector pump are firing in between the ignition and exhaust cycle (between bang and blow). I would think they would fire at the same time that the air intake valve opens on the intake cycle. I'm not sure what's going on.

D1105 engine specs are 18 to 20 degrees before top dead center, without the mechanical timer, assuming that your engine does not have one.

Where the injector pump mates to the engine, are there any shims? Fine tuning is done with shims.

Not to take away from any other comments, merely adding another thing to look into.
 

RCW

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Where the injector pump mates to the engine, are there any shims? Fine tuning is done with shims.
Jim - that was my other thought.....Flip did say something about timing...
 

Russell King

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Since you are suspicious of the injectors, get new ones and then you can replace them when you check the compression on each cylinder. Get reputable brand injectors is highly recommended. If you have a local shop you trust they can be tested and repaired.

Eliminate the compression question by testing but I agree it would not start ever if that was the problem. Testing eliminates hat totally and move to fuel system.

Replaced or repaired injectors eliminates that question but replace their sealing washer also so no problem with compression is created.

If you can eliminate the question of fuel source that will help. Setting up a gravity feed through a in line filter can do that. You can buy a plastic bottle system for motorcycle repair (when the tank has to be removed). or rig up your own system.
Since this may be the easiest and cheapest I would do it first then worry about shims behind the injector pump if you removed the injection pump during the rebuild. If pump was never removed then ignore that timing question.

I think you can eliminate other timing questions by removing the injector and seeing if you can see the fuel pulse at the correct time or spray from injector onto cardboard at correct time. Flywheel marked somehow to see degrees?
 

North Idaho Wolfman

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Have you had the injectors pop tested.
Bad injectors can do what your describing, but only to some degree.
When you swapped the injection pumps how many shims were under the injection pump?

The way to eliminate any issue with the fuel delivery system is to bottle feed the injection pump.
 

armylifer

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Have you had the injectors pop tested.
Bad injectors can do what your describing, but only to some degree.
When you swapped the injection pumps how many shims were under the injection pump?

The way to eliminate any issue with the fuel delivery system is to bottle feed the injection pump.
What do you mean by the term "bottle feed" the injection pump?
 

Russell King

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What do you mean by the term "bottle feed" the injection pump?
Bypass fuel tank and filers, provide clean fuel directly to injection pump with a gravity head by hanging a bottle of fuel above the engine. See my previous post (#23) for more descriptive information.
 

armylifer

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Bypass fuel tank and filers, provide clean fuel directly to injection pump with a gravity head by hanging a bottle of fuel above the engine. See my previous post (#23) for more descriptive information.
Thank you! I am watching this thread carefully because it represents a great learning opportunity for me.
 

Mike.R.B

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RCW - the fuel tank in mounted under the engine inside the stand that the engine sits on. An electrical lift pump supplies fuel to the injector pump. I have tried a different pump too.

I'll have another play with it this afternoon.

The pump shims have been reinstalled.

Thank you for all your comments so far.
 

Mike.R.B

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I was tired and it was getting dark yesterday so I had a closer look this morning in the light, and it seems to be firing somewhere at the top of compression cycle as 'Jim L' stated. I'm starting to think that it's air getting in to the fuel lines.
I'm going to replace all hoses with new, and double check all clamps and connections.
 

North Idaho Wolfman

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Bottle feed it!
That will help eliminate half of the possible issues, and let you focus on where to go next.
 

lugbolt

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engine compression won't back feed. With the way the injectors are made, It would take a whole lot of pressure to push the pintle off it's seat. Enough that if you had that much pressure, you'd certainly have other issues like the starter not being able to turn it over and insuffiicient clearance between the crown and the head, among many other things. Basically, not really possible.

Now if they DID have a leak, you'd have fuel getting into the cylinder at the wrong time assuming the pump works. That's usually evident by rattling, clanking, but not like a rod rattle. And smoke. But I aint never seen one "backfeed"-ever. Rare to see an injector "bad" unless it's common rail and I don't think we're talking about common rail stuff here.

You need to know the cranking pressure first of all. Rent a gauge if you can find one. Then post it up. 500 psi is about where you want to see it. 380 is the lowest spec, usually if they're that low they're barely run, if at all. I've gotten them to run down to 350 but not very well, and normally not for very long.

Is there a possibility that moisture could have gotten into the fuel? If so, your pump doesn't like you. They are extremely intolerant of water and air. And gas. If any of those get into the pump, sometimes the plungers will get stuck and then they'll just barely move any fuel, not enough to run usually. Sometimes just one plunger will stick and you will see that when it's removed, one roller will be higher in the pump than the others.

Way I read it, it sure does sound like air. One thing worth noting, these systems don't bleed the same as some do. You never need to "crack" the injector lines loose to bleed the lines. Just loosen the bleeder, crank it over until no more air and/or it starts, and then tighten it up-you're done. Easier than most people make it out to be. On that note, what I have seen way too much of is folks overtightening and/or moving the delivery valves when cranking the injector lines with a 17mm wrench. Once the delivery valve turns in the bore, send the pump back out for repair. All it takes is about a millimeter, hence the reason you always hold the delivery valve with a wrench and loosen the nut on the line while holding the other. I bet I do 5 pumps a year from people who think they're mechanics and they'll go to loosening the lines at the pump instead of the injectors (and neither one needs to be loosened) to bleed the system, delivery valve(s) turn, and the pump is then trashed/needs to be sent out for repair. Sometimes it's cheaper to replace it with a new one.
 

whitetiger

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Your engine probably has an electric fuel shutoff, remove it and see if it stays running. You can kill the engine using the manual shutoff lever on the pump. This will confirm if you have an electrical or mechanical problem.
 

armylifer

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I was tired and it was getting dark yesterday so I had a closer look this morning in the light, and it seems to be firing somewhere at the top of compression cycle as 'Jim L' stated. I'm starting to think that it's air getting in to the fuel lines.
I'm going to replace all hoses with new, and double check all clamps and connections.
Please be sure to report back on what you find. I am sure we are all interested in knowing what you find.
 

Mike.R.B

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I've not really had a chance to take another look, just replaced all the fuel lines and did a lot of bleeding, but no real progress.
I really need to borrow a pressure tester before anything else. I'ts all a bit too frustrating at the moment.

I'll keep everyone posted for sure!
 

RCW

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I've not really had a chance to take another look, just replaced all the fuel lines and did a lot of bleeding, but no real progress.
Mike - since you're new to OTT, one thing I would strongly suggest is you pay particular attention to suggestions from lugbolt, whitetiger and Wolfman. Keeping Kubota machines operating is what they do.....

We have many, many smart folks here that are willing to help. But like anywhere else, some are outstanding in their field..... 👍
 

Mike.R.B

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Thanks for the heads up RCW, I can see theres a LOT of knowledge on here.

Whitetiger - It does have an electric fuel cut solenoid, I have tried it without and it still won't run. I was getting red hot though, so I've ordered a new one. I could also see the pin popping in and out.

Lugbolt - thank you so much for your time and input, there's certainly a lot of information there. I need to get hold of a pressure tester to make absolutely sure that it's not an issue.
I'm running (trying to run) the engine from a plastic 20 litre can with fresh diesel in it so that's not a problem. When I first tried to start it, and couldn't, I stripped and cleaned the pump (from the bottom end) and injectors but this made no difference, not sure if I trashed anything up while doing so, but it wouldn't start anyway, I did get a good spray pattern from the injectors while connecting them up externally. I must admit that I am guilty of using a 17mm spanner on the injector lines to bleed air out. I'm not in any way a mechanic, but I have changed engines, gearboxes and running gear in numerous vehicles and I'm a qualified oil fired boiler heating engineer. So I know my way around a socket set.
I already mentioned I tried another lift and injector pump.

The last time I played around with the new hoses I did manage to get it firing more frequently and there is now always smoke coming from the exhaust ports, white at first then black when it fires, the white again.

The engine is set to run at low RPM so the governors are preset and there's no adjustment, only to shut it off.

I saw a youtube video and the guy said that restricting the return pipe will get the engine running without needing to bleed it. Is This correct? At the moment my return line is just in the top of the plastic can. Should this have some restriction on it?

I can't think of any more information that might help.
 

Mike.R.B

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Sorry Wolfman Just read your message. I've not tried that yet. Do you mean have the bottle higher than the engine to gravity feed it, so there's no need for a lift pump?
 

Jim L.

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Do you mean have the bottle higher than the engine to gravity feed it, so there's no need for a lift pump?

Exactly! This divides off the tank, lines, lift pump.
 

RCW

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Mike - - Jim is no slouch either. 👍......there’s just too many smart guys to mention all by name....

That’s a Good problem to have!

Remember as you bottle feed it you’re bypassing filters, etc, so make sure everything is clean and dry, including the fuel.

You’re not looking for anything to last a long time, just enough to check it.

That was motive when asking if it was in a stand, etc.
Best wishes!