Coolant Exchange M6800

[amschind]

My next maintenance items are replacing the front gear fluid and differential fluid and regreasing all of the zerks, but the bigger question is replacing the coolant. I hope that this is equally easy, but I wanted to ask the community opinion of coolant options. The manual just talks about mixtures, which is more or less unimportant in Texas barring nuclear winter. I have almost exactly 2 gallons of Motorcraft Yellow premix coolant for my late model F150, and assuming that I flush the system well with distilled water, I can't really see how this would cause an issue. Still, coolant has somehow become complex, so I figured I would ask before I regret something.

 

[mcmxi]

I buy coolant for the tractors from the local Kubota dealer but it's just NAPA branded 50/50 prediluted green stuff. It says on the label that it meets Ford ESE-M97B44-A, ASTM D3306 and ASTM D4985 and this is what the local Kubota service/parts department recommends. The owner's manuals simply state "fresh clean soft water with anti-freeze." Thanks Kubota!

Is that Motorcraft premix stuff special in any way? I run Motorcraft gold coolant in my F250 7.3L which is a "special" coolant for diesel engines and is supposed to reduce cavitation and pitting of the cylinders. I wouldn't put that in my tractors though.

 

[TheOldHokie]

My next maintenance items are replacing the front gear fluid and differential fluid and regreasing all of the zerks, but the bigger question is replacing the coolant. I hope that this is equally easy, but I wanted to ask the community opinion of coolant options. The manual just talks about mixtures, which is more or less unimportant in Texas barring nuclear winter. I have almost exactly 2 gallons of Motorcraft Yellow premix coolant for my late model F150, and assuming that I flush the system well with distilled water, I can't really see how this would cause an issue. Still, coolant has somehow become complex, so I figured I would ask before I regret something.

The Internet has once again made something simple complex. There are dozens of extended life coolants to choose from. Pick one and move on. FWIW Kubota branded coolant is a PHOAT ELC formulation.

Dan

 

[mcmxi]

The Internet has once again made something simple complex. There are dozens of extended life coolants to choose from. Pick one and move on. FWIW Kubota branded coolant is a PHOAT ELC formulation.

Dan

Out of interest, what color is that Kubota branded coolant? Aren't PHOAT ELC formulations typically orange or yellow? All four Kubota tractors that I've bought have come with green coolant which isn't typically an ELC.

I follow the two-year coolant flush schedule that's provided in the maintenance schedule.

 

[The Evil Twin]

Out of interest, what color is that Kubota branded coolant? Aren't PHOAT ELC formulations typically orange or yellow? All four Kubota tractors that I've bought have come with green coolant which isn't typically an ELC.

I follow the two-year coolant flush schedule that's provided in the maintenance schedule.

The K coolant I bought is green. Colors don't matter these days. NAS free coolants can be red, yellow or blue in the states. Prestone probably makes the K coolant and dyes it per Japanese standards. I have no basis for thinking that though. Other than I doubt they shop the coolant from Japan.
FWIW, the VC-13-G Motorcraft Yellow coolant meets the specifications K lays out. I would not hesitate to use it.

 

[TheOldHokie]

Out of interest, what color is that Kubota branded coolant? Aren't PHOAT ELC formulations typically orange or yellow? All four Kubota tractors that I've bought have come with green coolant which isn't typically an ELC.

I follow the two-year coolant flush schedule that's provided in the maintenance schedule.

First let me correct one thing in that post. Kubota coolant is a not a hybrid (PHOAT) ELC coolant.

It is a phosphated OAT {POAT) ELC coolant. It is dyed geeen and contains no silicates, borates, or nitrites. It is the polar opposite of a conventional green IAT silicate based coolant.

The operator's manual for my L3901 is quite clear on the use of a long life coolant and specifies flush and refill every 2 years.

Dan

 

[TheOldHokie]

The K coolant I bought is green. Colors don't matter these days. NAS free coolants can be red, yellow or blue in the states. Prestone probably makes the K coolant and dyes it per Japanese standards. I have no basis for thinking that though. Other than I doubt they shop the coolant from Japan.
FWIW, the VC-13-G Motorcraft Yellow coolant meets the specifications K lays out. I would not hesitate to use it.

In the US Kubota LLC is manufactured by CCI Automotive Products. They are based in Thailand and are one of if not the principal supplier of automotive coolant in Asia. Their Golden Cruiser line is a POAT product used as factory fill by OEMs in that market place. I suspect their US formulation is nothing more than the "standard duty" (2 yr. 40K miles, green, red) Golden Cruiser product manufactured in CCI's IL plant. In Asia they also produce a "heavy duty" version of Golden Cruiser (4 yr, 80K miles, blue, violet).

Dan

 

[mcmxi]

First let me correct one thing in that post. Kubota coolant is a not a hybrid (PHOAT) ELC coolant.

It is a phosphated OAT {POAT) ELC coolant. It is dyed geeen and contains no silicates, borates, or nitrites. It is the polar opposite of a conventional green IAT silicate based coolant.

The operator's manual for my L3901 is quite clear on the use of a long life coolant and specifies flush and refill every 2 years.

Dan

I learned something today. The Denatonium Benzoate in the NAPA coolant is added to make it taste awfully bitter to prevent ingestion, or at least to make it less enjoyable to drink. Supposedly, concentrations as low as 10ppm are unbearable for most people.

As for what's in Kubota coolant, the stuff that Messick's sells, the MSDS lists the formulation of the inorganic and organic acid salts as being proprietary. I've been under the impression for decades that some amount of silicates in coolant intended for diesel engines is a good thing. The NAPA stuff lists it as being a "low silicate" antifreeze, whatever that means.

 

[TheOldHokie]

I learned something today. The Denatonium Benzoate in the NAPA coolant is added to make it taste awfully bitter to prevent ingestion.

As for what's in Kubota coolant, the stuff that Messick's sells, the MSDS lists the formulation of the inorganic and organic acid salts as being proprietary.

View attachment 140457

A more full throated description can be found here.

 

[mcmxi]

A more full throated description can be found here.

Where is that pdf file from? Here's a link to the MSDS for Kubota coolant that can be found on Kubota's website.

https://www.kubotausa.com/docs/default-source/safety-data-sheets/product-number/70040-0l014.pdf?sfvrsn=ce673684_2

There's lots of information to be found re silicate gel formation in cooling systems.

"Silica gel formation in heavy duty diesel cooling systems has increased with the increased usage of antifreeze with high levels of silicate. Gelation can occur when this type of antifreeze is mixed with supplemental coolant additives which are required to protect heavy duty diesel engine cooling systems, or when the undiluted antifreeze is stored for long periods."

 

[amschind]

I really appreciate all of this. Ford Motorcraft Yellow is a Phosphate Organic Acid Type. This guy has a decent rundown of it all:

My unfounded assumption is that much of the complexity has arisen from two sources: 1) environmental concerns and 2) "extended service intervals". In an application where folks properly dispose of used coolant, flush old coolant before mixing new stuff in and change coolant at regular intervals, it seems like virtually anything better than tap water should work well.

I'll tell a story to illustrate the creep of needlessly complex and failure prone "features" into modern cars. I have been fighting a 3 year battle on my F150 hybrid vs the exhaust heat exchanger. Ford engineered a stainless heat exchanger with a plastic controller valve on top which, under the influence of a 12V control signal, directs exhaust through a separate flow path which HEATS the primary coolant loop. As you can imagine, bolting plastic electronic components to the exhaust pipe can fail in several fun ways: the valve can fail open, continuously heating the coolant and overheating the truck, the plastic proprietary "quick release" connectors can fail, quickly or slowly emptying the vehicle's coolant onto the road behind the truck. Notably, neither of these fail deadly conditions triggers a warning message to the driver until the engine overheats, BUT Ford helpfully installed two temperature sensors on the in/out coolant lines to detect the expected temperature increase when the valve is commanded open. This makes it impossible to remove the heat exchanger without some variety of code.

For over a year, the F150 community assumed that this loop heated the low temperature coolant loop so that the battery would work in low temperatures. However, we came to find out that in fact this heat exchanger heats the standard coolant loop for the express purpose of causing the heater to work slightly faster in very cold conditions (in a truck equipped with heated seats and a heated steering wheel, no less).

What's the point of that story? Do NOT assume that the cost in terms of complexity, particularly in the automotive world, has ANY relationship to the potential benefit.

 

[amschind]

I learned something today. The Denatonium Benzoate in the NAPA coolant is added to make it taste awfully bitter to prevent ingestion, or at least to make it less enjoyable to drink. Supposedly, concentrations as low as 10ppm are unbearable for most people.

As for what's in Kubota coolant, the stuff that Messick's sells, the MSDS lists the formulation of the inorganic and organic acid salts as being proprietary. I've been under the impression for decades that some amount of silicates in coolant intended for diesel engines is a good thing. The NAPA stuff lists it as being a "low silicate" antifreeze, whatever that means.

View attachment 140457

I got to drink some of that denatonium benzoate during the tribulation of eliminating the exhaust heat exchanger off of my truck. It is....bitter.

 

[RCW]

I certainly can relate to @mcmxi saying he learned something today.

I changed mine a year ago and had a difficult time finding the right stuff. So many more alternatives than years ago.

Tried to find the container just now without luck. Must have used all of it.

Pretty sure it was correct, whatever it was.

I have a couple gallons of plain old EG ELC “green”. Probably should have just used what I had on hand and not gotten mired in the minutiae.

Like @TheOldHokie said, sometimes the internet just makes things more complicated…

 

[TheOldHokie]

I really appreciate all of this. Ford Motorcraft Yellow is a Phosphate Organic Acid Type. This guy has a decent rundown of it all:

My unfounded assumption is that much of the complexity has arisen from two sources: 1) environmental concerns and 2) "extended service intervals". In an application where folks properly dispose of used coolant, flush old coolant before mixing new stuff in and change coolant at regular intervals, it seems like virtually anything better than tap water should work well.

I'll tell a story to illustrate the creep of needlessly complex and failure prone "features" into modern cars. I have been fighting a 3 year battle on my F150 hybrid vs the exhaust heat exchanger. Ford engineered a stainless heat exchanger with a plastic controller valve on top which, under the influence of a 12V control signal, directs exhaust through a separate flow path which HEATS the primary coolant loop. As you can imagine, bolting plastic electronic components to the exhaust pipe can fail in several fun ways: the valve can fail open, continuously heating the coolant and overheating the truck, the plastic proprietary "quick release" connectors can fail, quickly or slowly emptying the vehicle's coolant onto the road behind the truck. Notably, neither of these fail deadly conditions triggers a warning message to the driver until the engine overheats, BUT Ford helpfully installed two temperature sensors on the in/out coolant lines to detect the expected temperature increase when the valve is commanded open. This makes it impossible to remove the heat exchanger without some variety of code.

For over a year, the F150 community assumed that this loop heated the low temperature coolant loop so that the battery would work in low temperatures. However, we came to find out that in fact this heat exchanger heats the standard coolant loop for the express purpose of causing the heater to work slightly faster in very cold conditions (in a truck equipped with heated seats and a heated steering wheel, no less).

What's the point of that story? Do NOT assume that the cost in terms of complexity, particularly in the automotive world, has ANY relationship to the potential benefit.

The use of Extended Lufe Coolants is motivated primarily by cost. Simply put it costs money to change coolant or periodically test and add supplementary additives.

The basic difference in how the two chemistries work and the advantage of OAT chemistry is easy to understand.

Old fashion inorganic acid chemistry worrked via a shotgun approach. The silicates reacted with the entire surface of the cooling system and deposited an anticorrosive surface coating that had to be continuously renewed. That rapidly depleted the additive levels in the coolant

Modern organic acid technology employs a targeted approach. The additives only react at the anodic points where corrosion actually takes place. The result is greatly reduced additive depletion. The silicate surface coating laid down by IAT chemistry also inhibited heat transfer. A side benefit of the targeted action of OAT chemistry is improved heat transfer.

Dan

 

[TheOldHokie]

I certainly can relate to @mcmxi saying he learned something today.

I changed mine a year ago and had a difficult time finding the right stuff. So many more alternatives than years ago.

Tried to find the container just now without luck. Must have used all of it.

Pretty sure it was correct, whatever it was.

I have a couple gallons of plain old EG ELC “green”. Probably should have just used what I had on hand and not gotten mired in the minutiae.

Like @TheOldHokie said, sometimes the internet just makes things more complicated…

Both technologies are ethylene glycol based.

Old fashion green inorganic acid technology (IAT) coolant contained silicates and had to be replaced annually. It is not an ELC.

Modern organic acid technology (OAT -developed about 30 years ago) uses carboxylates instead of silicates and has a much longer service life - e.g they are ELC's

Dan

 

[RCW]

Dan - I was aware all were EG coolant, but little else.

As usual you boil it down to the fundamentals in a succinct manner.

Again, this is NOT what I used in the tractor. What I had on hand.

No reference to PHOAT, POAT, OAT, IAT, or MIC, KEY, or MOUSE.

Maybe was a wise choice to leave it on the shelf.

 

[TheOldHokie]

Dan - I was aware all were EG coolant, but little else.

As usual you boil it down to the fundamentals in a succinct manner.

Again, this is NOT what I used in the tractor. What I had on hand.

View attachment 140465

No reference to PHOAT, POAT, OAT, IAT, or MIC, KEY, or MOUSE.

Maybe was a wise choice to leave it on the shelf.

Unfortunately the labeling on way to many products gives very little info on the specifics of the additive chemistry. Probably because it really does not matter and only confuses people.. I am confident that ELC would work in a Kubota tractor.

Dan

 

[mcmxi]

Old fashion inorganic acid chemistry worrked via a shotgun approach.

Modern organic acid technology employs a targeted approach.

The MSDS for the Kubota stuff mentions both organic and inorganic acids being present.

 

[mcmxi]

Dan - I was aware all were EG coolant, but little else.

As usual you boil it down to the fundamentals in a succinct manner.

Again, this is NOT what I used in the tractor. What I had on hand.

View attachment 140465

No reference to PHOAT, POAT, OAT, IAT, or MIC, KEY, or MOUSE.

Maybe was a wise choice to leave it on the shelf.

Hey, there's that Denatonium Benzoate again. I guess Kubota wants us to drink the Kool-Aid!

 

[TheOldHokie]

The MSDS for the Kubota stuff mentions both organic and inorganic acids being present.

The MSDS lists hydrated inorganic acids and organic acids in some unspecified quantites. The specific chemistry is "proprietary".

The Kubota sales brochhure is more specific = no silicates, borates, phosphates, or nitrites. That rules out IAT chemistry that relies on phosphates and silicates that form a protective coating on the surfaces of the cooling system.

There is no doubt its fundamentally OAT extended life chemistry which typically relies on carboxylates as inhibitors. Carboxylates are neutralized salts of organic acids that inhibit corrosion by interacting chemically at the sites of metallic corrosion rather than totaling coating the entire surface of the cooling system.

IAT coolant chemistry is as dead as nondetergent engine oils.

Dan