Clean Water

Trapper Bob

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OK, I have to ask...
WHY did you allow those trees to grow next to your well ?

Silly neighbour has a tree 2 feet from foundation and wonders why basement leaks.....

Guess you don't have Dutch Elm disease yet ??
I bought the place in 2017. I’ve been helping the previous owner on the place since 2001. I wanted to cut the trees down, but previous owner liked the shade to park vehicles under when out there. I grew accustomed to parking in the shade as well. As you can see, the building will provide the shade now. The trees will come down.
The concrete cap was off kilter already, has not gotten worse since I have been around. I’m sure the trees are sucking up a lot of water & need to go.
 

Trapper Bob

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Andover, KS
The Elms are down, mostly. I need to cut the windmill leg & support out of 1 stump.
IMG_1086.jpeg
 

North Idaho Wolfman

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My personal preference on a shallow well is a UV filter, it will kill any bacterial and biological contamination.
You can get solid state filters that will pull 99% of everything else out.
If your dealing with metals, carbon filters are the go to.

I only have a small amount of blue clay that get into our well, so 2 pair of Big Blue Filters do the trick for us.
 

D2Cat

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Looking good!!

I'd be interested to know if the water level changes with the trees being gone. I took an old bolt and tied a string to it and used that to drop into the well to measure water depth. Takes a little bit to see the water on the string, but I'd put a knot at the water level (when the strings was wet) when I pulled it out, then a looped knot at the top of the concrete. Then lay out the string to measure how much water I had and how much below the concrete slab the water was. With the knots in the string I just rolled the string on a pop can and could use it next time to compare.
 

Trapper Bob

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L4701, Wicked grapple, 6’ bush hog, pallet forks, 7’ box blade, 6’ Wicked bucket
Jan 17, 2022
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Andover, KS
My personal preference on a shallow well is a UV filter, it will kill any bacterial and biological contamination.
You can get solid state filters that will pull 99% of everything else out.
If your dealing with metals, carbon filters are the go to.

I only have a small amount of blue clay that get into our well, so 2 pair of Big Blue Filters do the trick for us.
My TDS is high at 843. I’m being told to filter that & get it down below 500. A water softener should finish the job.
Manganese & sodium are high. The manganese can be handled with a filter, but sodium requires an RO system to remove enough for acceptable levels.
The biological critters were not detectable, but a UV-C filter seems like good insurance to make sure (as you stated).
The big question is which company/brand do I use? Are all the carbon filters & RO systems the same, or does 1 company/brand work better at a reasonable price?
I would think all this filtering should be done ahead of the pressure tank to keep the contaminates out of the entire water system, but that is not what some of the companies want to do.
 
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Trapper Bob

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L4701, Wicked grapple, 6’ bush hog, pallet forks, 7’ box blade, 6’ Wicked bucket
Jan 17, 2022
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Andover, KS
Looking good!!

I'd be interested to know if the water level changes with the trees being gone. I took an old bolt and tied a string to it and used that to drop into the well to measure water depth. Takes a little bit to see the water on the string, but I'd put a knot at the water level (when the strings was wet) when I pulled it out, then a looped knot at the top of the concrete. Then lay out the string to measure how much water I had and how much below the concrete slab the water was. With the knots in the string I just rolled the string on a pop can and could use it next time to compare.
I have cut down some pretty big Elm trees. Most of the time, the saw dust is so wet, it will bind up the chainsaw & “sap” performance from the saw. There were a few trees that contained several gallons of brackish water in the core that really made a mess of the chainsaw & my pants. I believe Elm trees do remove a lot of water from the ground/well.
I’ve been using a graduated cloth tape with SS washers tied to the end. The feedback is instantaneous & it is on hand crank making it pretty simple to use. I’ll monitor the well & let you know.
 
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North Idaho Wolfman

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My TDS is high at 843. I’m being told to filter that & get it down below 500. A water softener should finish the job.
Manganese & sodium are high. The manganese can be handled with a filter, but sodium requires an RO system to remove enough for acceptable levels.
The biological critters were not detectable, but a UV-C filter seems like good insurance to make sure (as you stated).
The big question is which company/brand do I use? Are all the carbon filters & RO systems the same, or does 1 company/brand work better at a reasonable price?
I would think all this filtering should be done ahead of the pressure tank to keep the contaminates out of the entire water system, but that is not what some of the companies want to do.
I did a lot of comparisons and just ended up getting ones with a good reputation, good price, and good reviews.
I have a stock pile of filters for the next 10 years minimum.
And I don't have a large pressure tank, 2.5 gal, because it's a on demand system.
But if I had a tank I would most definitely want to do it before the tank, but I'm not sure that's the best option as clogged filters could cause over pressure if not set up prefectly.
 

Vlach7

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I put in a whole house RO system for $5000, good for 1gpm 30 years ago. Did not work as well as I would have liked, so I had to threaten legal action to get $3000 back. For years now I just have a $250 RO, with built in auxiliary pump, good for over 50 gpd. Be aware of the wastewater, could be a lot and considered a hazardous material. Every well is different, you will just have to figure your needs. Always keep a $15 TDS tester around so you Know it is working, don't ask me how I know.
 
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RCW

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I put in a whole house RO system for $5000, good for 1gpm 30 years ago. Did not work as well as I would have liked, so I had to threaten legal action to get $3000 back. For years now I just have a $250 RO, with built in auxiliary pump, good for over 50 gpd. Be aware of the wastewater, could be a lot and considered a hazardous material. Every well is different, you will just have to figure your needs. Always keep a $15 TDS tester around so you Know it is working, don't ask me how I know.
True.

An RO system for a house should be limited to drinking water points only. A whole house system is ridiculous in my opinion. Lots of maintenance associated with them.

I would never recommend an RO of any kind, unless it could be avoided by other accommodations.

UV systems work fantastic for disinfection, as long as “stuff” doesn’t cloud or coat the system.

Think of it like your eyes having cataracts. Inhibits the UV light to do its job.

I’m still curious of the level of sodium. That’s normally not something I’d worry about but there are exceptions.

That said, since sodium treatment is limited to RO ( translated into $$$), water treatment companies can make it sound more important than it really is, as an upsell for a homeowner.

I regulated public water systems and did advisory help for homeowner's water systems for years. It’s been quite a few years, but it was something I did almost every day.

I always tried to get common sense solutions for water problems that were cost effective for the homeowner without risking health problems due to the water supply.

If you want any advice let me know.

Best wishes.
 
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Trapper Bob

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Jan 17, 2022
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Andover, KS
True.

An RO system for a house should be limited to drinking water points only. A whole house system is ridiculous in my opinion. Lots of maintenance associated with them.

I would never recommend an RO of any kind, unless it could be avoided by other accommodations.

UV systems work fantastic for disinfection, as long as “stuff” doesn’t cloud or coat the system.

Think of it like your eyes having cataracts. Inhibits the UV light to do its job.

I’m still curious of the level of sodium. That’s normally not something I’d worry about but there are exceptions.

That said, since sodium treatment is limited to RO ( translated into $$$), water treatment companies can make it sound more important than it really is, as an upsell for a homeowner.

I regulated public water systems and did advisory help for homeowner's water systems for years. It’s been quite a few years, but it was something I did almost every day.

I always tried to get common sense solutions for water problems that were cost effective for the homeowner without risking health problems due to the water supply.

If you want any advice let me know.

Best wishes.
Here is the water analysis. Tell me what you think.

I did get the area cleaned up around the well. I’ll pull the cover (concrete cube with some draft) soon & see if I can get enough light in there for some decent pictures.
IMG_1096.jpeg
IMG_1092.jpeg
 
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RCW

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Bob - -

Just so I understand correctly, is the apartment to be occupied 24/7/365 by a tenant, or is it occasional use?

Thanks for the analyses. Appears like a bona fide certified environmental lab result, but doesn't show a Lab ID#, etc. to ensure same.

Most of the analytes are physical and aesthetic characteristics of the water. Some have guidelines, but no hard and fast maximum levels.

Some, like E. coli and Total Coliform are regulated for public water systems and are a basic definition of potability for private systems. Both being negative is great. However, given it's a shallow well can change due to weather, etc.

Looks like a lot of water in upstate New York. It's hard and has some iron and manganese at relatively low concentrations. It's actually a good indication that the water is "old" and highly mineralized; it's not significantly derived from surface water which is much softer.

I'm used to seeing iron and manganese combined at >0.5 mg/l. At ~ 0.3 combined, I personally think you might have some options if you're open to trying a couple things.

Sodium is indeed elevated at 197 mg/l, but I'll cover that in a little bit.

I'll try to cover some of the stuff by category:

E. coli/Total Coliform

This is a big deal. You're negative which is great. I would consider a disinfection system as it's a dug well.

UV could be an option, but after some kind of treatment to reduce TDS, iron and manganese. Essentially a UV passes water through a clear/glass like tube and the UV light does the disinfection. Doesn't work reliably is clear tube is coated with "stuff."

Not sure if they're common in KS, but for many years in NYS pellet chlorinators were common. Dropped small CaCl tablets in the casing to disinfect. Could likely be adapted to a dug well. Could also help with some of the iron, manganese, TDS issues.

SODIUM

In New York, there is no maximum contaminant level for sodium, but there are action levels above 20 mg/l. You're at 197 mg/l.

Sodium in drinking/cooking water adds to the dietary intake.

For folks on zero or very low sodium diets, elevated sodium in drinking water can attribute to hypertension and other health problems. In New York, a system would have to include verbiage on their annual report to customers.

If sodium intake is not a major concern to the consumer(s) in the apartment, I'm not sure I would be terribly concerned with the sodium in the raw water.

As a point of reference, I bought canned tomatoes at the store today. 360 mg/l PER CUP of tomatoes in the can. That's before a cook might add salt to the sauce....

Total Hardness/TDS/Iron/Manganese

I'll toss these in one category as all related. All aesthetic issues, and harmless.

As a former regulator, I'll be reaching a little here, in that they are aesthetic, and not something I could really mandate a fix for.

Actually, add the mineral intake of the consumer.

However, things like iron or manganese staining, or hard water lime deposits give folks concern.

Also reduce life of water heaters.

As these are all components of Total Dissolved Solids, filtration via a simple paper cartridge filter won't take them out.

I recall a guidance of maximum of 500 mg/l for TDS, but it's not something we had in our NYS Code.

TREATMENT OPTIONS - my opinion/suggestions

I'd probably put a cartridge filter in the inbound line, primarily to catch silt, etc. as it's a dug well.

After the cartridge filter:


#1 - - Do nothing. Given it's coliform negative (on the day of the sample), not unwarranted option. But given it's a dug well, not recommended. That's your choice and risk. Definitely test for coliform annually or any time water quality changes.

You have hard water with some iron, etc. in it. Lots of people do. Might not be a problem. Won't really know unless you try it as is.

My former coworker has a bunch of iron in her well. She has a double wide mobile home on a slab and doesn't have options to place a treatment system.

#2 - - Soften only. Referred to as ion exchange. A conventional water softener replaces calcium, magnesium, iron and manganese ions with sodium. Ion exchange with add sodium to the water. For calcium, one Ca ion is replaced by one Na ion. For Fe, could be up to 3 Na for each Fe ion.

Your iron and manganese levels aren't way out of whack of what we see here. Simple softener could deal with a lot of stuff, but often is somewhat difficult to determine outcomes in advance. A lot depends on the oxidation state of the minerals.

Could require some adjustments/treatments later on, but a good place to start.

If water is softened too much, it can actually become aggressive to plumbing and fixtures.

Hard water isn't necessarily a bad thing.

#3 - - Activated carbon - - Don't do it. No reason. I've seen good, disinfected water going into a carbon filter, and bad water come out. Things can get inoculated with bacterial coliforms, and they stay there. Good for removal of some stuff in certain applications, but I don't trust them. My opinion.

#4 - - Soften then UV Disinfection. Since you're (hopefully) taking out some of the stuff from the water, a UV could be a great option.

$5 - - Reverse Osmosis. I would never sign on for a whole-house system. Water is very aggressive to plumbing - - too soft. Maybe a point-of-use under the kitchen sink, but would sooner skip all of it.

That is entirely dictated by the sodium-restrictions the consumers may have.

SUMMARY

I'd probably do 4, 2 or 1, in that order.

But there’s nothing wrong in reversing the order to try as you deem appropriate.

Also consider the sodium and what softening would do. Good to take a sample at the kitchen tap after a softener is running to check.

Best wishes.

Any more questions, holler.
 
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Trapper Bob

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L4701, Wicked grapple, 6’ bush hog, pallet forks, 7’ box blade, 6’ Wicked bucket
Jan 17, 2022
446
818
93
64
Andover, KS
Bob - -

Just so I understand correctly, is the apartment to be occupied 24/7/365 by a tenant, or is it occasional use?

Thanks for the analyses. Appears like a bona fide certified environmental lab result, but doesn't show a Lab ID#, etc. to ensure same.

Most of the analytes are physical and aesthetic characteristics of the water. Some have guidelines, but no hard and fast maximum levels.

Some, like E. coli and Total Coliform are regulated for public water systems and are a basic definition of potability for private systems. Both being negative is great. However, given it's a shallow well can change due to weather, etc.

Looks like a lot of water in upstate New York. It's hard and has some iron and manganese at relatively low concentrations. It's actually a good indication that the water is "old" and highly mineralized; it's not significantly derived from surface water which is much softer.

I'm used to seeing iron and manganese combined at >0.5 mg/l. At ~ 0.3 combined, I personally think you might have some options if you're open to trying a couple things.

Sodium is indeed elevated at 197 mg/l, but I'll cover that in a little bit.

I'll try to cover some of the stuff by category:

E. coli/Total Coliform

This is a big deal. You're negative which is great. I would consider a disinfection system as it's a dug well.

UV could be an option, but after some kind of treatment to reduce TDS, iron and manganese. Essentially a UV passes water through a clear/glass like tube and the UV light does the disinfection. Doesn't work reliably is clear tube is coated with "stuff."

Not sure if they're common in KS, but for many years in NYS pellet chlorinators were common. Dropped small CaCl tablets in the casing to disinfect. Could likely be adapted to a dug well. Could also help with some of the iron, manganese, TDS issues.

SODIUM

In New York, there is no maximum contaminant level for sodium, but there are action levels above 20 mg/l. You're at 197 mg/l.

Sodium in drinking/cooking water adds to the dietary intake.

For folks on zero or very low sodium diets, elevated sodium in drinking water can attribute to hypertension and other health problems. In New York, a system would have to include verbiage on their annual report to customers.

If sodium intake is not a major concern to the consumer(s) in the apartment, I'm not sure I would be terribly concerned with the sodium in the raw water.

As a point of reference, I bought canned tomatoes at the store today. 360 mg/l PER CUP of tomatoes in the can. That's before a cook might add salt to the sauce....

Total Hardness/TDS/Iron/Manganese

I'll toss these in one category as all related. All aesthetic issues, and harmless.

As a former regulator, I'll be reaching a little here, in that they are aesthetic, and not something I could really mandate a fix for.

Actually, add the mineral intake of the consumer.

However, things like iron or manganese staining, or hard water lime deposits give folks concern.

Also reduce life of water heaters.

As these are all components of Total Dissolved Solids, filtration via a simple paper cartridge filter won't take them out.

I recall a guidance of maximum of 500 mg/l for TDS, but it's not something we had in our NYS Code.

TREATMENT OPTIONS - my opinion/suggestions

I'd probably put a cartridge filter in the inbound line, primarily to catch silt, etc. as it's a dug well.

After the cartridge filter:


#1 - - Do nothing. Given it's coliform negative (on the day of the sample), not unwarranted option. But given it's a dug well, not recommended. That's your choice and risk. Definitely test for coliform annually or any time water quality changes.

You have hard water with some iron, etc. in it. Lots of people do. Might not be a problem. Won't really know unless you try it as is.

My former coworker has a bunch of iron in her well. She has a double wide mobile home on a slab and doesn't have options to place a treatment system.

#2 - - Soften only. Referred to as ion exchange. A conventional water softener replaces calcium, magnesium, iron and manganese ions with sodium. Ion exchange with add sodium to the water. For calcium, one Ca ion is replaced by one Na ion. For Fe, could be up to 3 Na for each Fe ion.

Your iron and manganese levels aren't way out of whack of what we see here. Simple softener could deal with a lot of stuff, but often is somewhat difficult to determine outcomes in advance. A lot depends on the oxidation state of the minerals.

Could require some adjustments/treatments later on, but a good place to start.

If water is softened too much, it can actually become aggressive to plumbing and fixtures.

Hard water isn't necessarily a bad thing.

#3 - - Activated carbon - - Don't do it. No reason. I've seen good, disinfected water going into a carbon filter, and bad water come out. Things can get inoculated with bacterial coliforms, and they stay there. Good for removal of some stuff in certain applications, but I don't trust them. My opinion.

#4 - - Soften then UV Disinfection. Since you're (hopefully) taking out some of the stuff from the water, a UV could be a great option.

$5 - - Reverse Osmosis. I would never sign on for a whole-house system. Water is very aggressive to plumbing - - too soft. Maybe a point-of-use under the kitchen sink, but would sooner skip all of it.

That is entirely dictated by the sodium-restrictions the consumers may have.

SUMMARY

I'd probably do 4, 2 or 1, in that order.

But there’s nothing wrong in reversing the order to try as you deem appropriate.

Also consider the sodium and what softening would do. Good to take a sample at the kitchen tap after a softener is running to check.

Best wishes.

Any more questions, holler.
Thank you very much for the “in depth” reply. Your comment about “old water” makes sense. The well had now been used in at least 15 years. I wondered if some of these minerals could build up over time & if pumping the well down, allowing it time to recharge, would decrease those amounts?

The apartment will not be occupied continuously. It will be mainly a home away from home. Stay out there when working on projects or during hunting season. My wife is not big on peeing in the woods. It will be nice to have a llace to go warm up, or cool down, as the case may be.

The test was done by a certified lab.
 
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Trapper Bob

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L4701, Wicked grapple, 6’ bush hog, pallet forks, 7’ box blade, 6’ Wicked bucket
Jan 17, 2022
446
818
93
64
Andover, KS
What happened to the windmill?
I removed it to make way for a pump house over the well. I think I made the former owner cry. He sad he had never seen the farm without the windmill (& he was born there).
I saved what I could, & what was worth saving. It was not in very good shape. The former owner & I agreed, there will be a future project to rebuild it & display, but purely for ascetics. It will not be pumping any more water.
 

RCW

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Thank you very much for the “in depth” reply. Your comment about “old water” makes sense. The well had now been used in at least 15 years. I wondered if some of these minerals could build up over time & if pumping the well down, allowing it time to recharge, would decrease those amounts?

The apartment will not be occupied continuously. It will be mainly a home away from home. Stay out there when working on projects or during hunting season. My wife is not big on peeing in the woods. It will be nice to have a llace to go warm up, or cool down, as the case may be.

The test was done by a certified lab.
My reference to “old” water really is derived by it being groundwater that has been subterranean for possibly years; not like a mountain stream that is derived from a recent rainfall upslope.

If my hypothesis is correct, the water quality should not change much when pumped regularly.

It will just draw in more “old” water, which is actually a good thing. Means it’s well protected from influences of shallow surface waters which are much more susceptible to contamination from many sources with biological being the first concern.

Sorry it was voluminous, but wanted to cover as much as possible.

Quite frankly for my own periodic use, I would be willing to try option #1 to see how it works. Fallback to the others if necessary. Again all of those are my own suggestions and just my own opinions. You should do as you deem appropriate.

Don’t believe I have any more to add.

Any questions holler.
 
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