Isn't it a shame that we can't discuss the biggest issue in the country right now without it being censored? Pretty pathetic really. You think it is just the MSM pushing their agenda?
Censorship Really Stinks
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torch
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To which country do you refer? This site is sponsored and run by a couple of Canadians, hosted by a Toronto-based provider.
Right now, Canada's biggest issue is keeping Covid-19 at bay without strangling our economy. Balancing our relations with China and the US ranks right up there too. Socially, maintaining quality accessible health care for all is always a hot button item. Politically, the Trans-mountain pipeline is taking a back seat to the Prime Minister's relationship with the WE movement.
But this website is about tractors. Orange ones. So the owners of this site prefer to keep discussions somewhat related to that topic. That is their right, not a censorship.
Right now, Canada's biggest issue is keeping Covid-19 at bay without strangling our economy. Balancing our relations with China and the US ranks right up there too. Socially, maintaining quality accessible health care for all is always a hot button item. Politically, the Trans-mountain pipeline is taking a back seat to the Prime Minister's relationship with the WE movement.
But this website is about tractors. Orange ones. So the owners of this site prefer to keep discussions somewhat related to that topic. That is their right, not a censorship.
motionclone
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Sure its their right. Still shameful and pathetic we cant discuss the biggest issue in our country and most all others as OP states.
The country doesn't matter. It is a worldwide problem as reported. It is just that in America there is an expectation of free speech, sorry if you are not allowed to speak freely were you are from.
Yes, MOST of the forum is about tractors. However PARTS of the forum are for "Off Topic". I shouldn't need to explain this but "off topic" is EVERYTHING ELSE besides tractors.
Some off topic is allowed (even political) by some users, some isn't. Some is left up, some is removed. That is the definition of censorship.
This particular issue unfortunately is completely surrounded by politics. IT IS PART OF THIS ISSUE. You can't discuss the whole issue without involving politics. That shouldn't matter though. Grown ups should be able to discuss anything (general public viewable).
For me personally, it is one moderator that doesn't like me and has been censoring my posts from the first week I got on here. When I asked him why he was censoring my content and not others, he said he didn't have time. Odd that he has time to censor my posts though.
Censorship really stinks. I wouldn't mind if he said "you lied" or "you called someone a name" or "you were vulgar" etc. no, just straight censorship, I don't like what you wrote.
Yes, MOST of the forum is about tractors. However PARTS of the forum are for "Off Topic". I shouldn't need to explain this but "off topic" is EVERYTHING ELSE besides tractors.
Some off topic is allowed (even political) by some users, some isn't. Some is left up, some is removed. That is the definition of censorship.
This particular issue unfortunately is completely surrounded by politics. IT IS PART OF THIS ISSUE. You can't discuss the whole issue without involving politics. That shouldn't matter though. Grown ups should be able to discuss anything (general public viewable).
For me personally, it is one moderator that doesn't like me and has been censoring my posts from the first week I got on here. When I asked him why he was censoring my content and not others, he said he didn't have time. Odd that he has time to censor my posts though.
Censorship really stinks. I wouldn't mind if he said "you lied" or "you called someone a name" or "you were vulgar" etc. no, just straight censorship, I don't like what you wrote.
Like the mans says, their ball , their yard, and they can do as they like. While discussing something is key to understanding, some people become overly passionate about a subject, and go full silver back on anyone that disagrees with them. So yeah while, I might not agree with it in some cases, the answer is simple. If you don't like it, go someplace else, or start your own site, and set your own rules, really it is that simple.
Free speech in any country is truly a myth, lawyers make a lot of money from defamation cases.
NHSleddog, if you feel muzzled about a particular "off topic" issue, why not continue to contribute your Kubota knowledge to OTT and your knowledge of the other issue to other forums specifically aligned to that issue?
NHSleddog, if you feel muzzled about a particular "off topic" issue, why not continue to contribute your Kubota knowledge to OTT and your knowledge of the other issue to other forums specifically aligned to that issue?
I outlined my feelings on this topic in the original covid 19 thread, based on my experience as a community site owner in the past, even stating that calls of censorship would start if they shut down the thread. So, im not surprised this is the charge now.
I will say that I think what initially derailed the discussion was it began to get personal in the original covid 19 thread. I saw people call others stupid for example. If you want to debate the issues then stay on the issue, and do not go to personal attacks, As soon as you go to personal attacks and start name calling you're asking to have the thread shut down. I would have liked to have been more involved in the covid 19 thread, because with a wife working with it on the front lines I felt I could have added a lot to the discussion, but it became too personal and snarky for my interest. I love a good debate, but I like to debate the issues specifically. I can disagree strongly with someone and still speak to them respectfully and formulate my posts in a respectful manner. Unfortunately many in the covid thread did not do that - it became snarky, biting, digging, calling people stupid, and that is what I think derailed the discussion. The moderators let it go on for around 100 pages worth before it was squashed. Because of these issues I cant get on board the censorship train. I think honestly the mods likely wouldnt have cared about a covid 19 thread continuing, but when it went personal it crossed a line. I enjoy debating, I done it for years in online forums just because I enjoyed it. One lesson I learned is that your approach and behaviour as a discussion or debate progresses often holds more power on those who disagree with you than any facts or data you can lay out - no matter how articulate you lay it out. You cant berate someone and then expect to win an argument. The original covid 19 thread was a good example of that playing out. Many folks in that thread, many who I actually agree with on the issue, went too aggressive to the point it was nauseating for even me to continue to follow it. It was just beating a dead horse over and over and then berating anyone who dissented. This is so typical of folks who are amateurs at debating an issue. They get so overloaded with passion about their viewpoint that they just try to railroad people, rather than taking the more mature approach and stepping back from their passion, checking themselves, and staying focused on the facts alone, while remaining respectful in your presentation.
I will say that I think what initially derailed the discussion was it began to get personal in the original covid 19 thread. I saw people call others stupid for example. If you want to debate the issues then stay on the issue, and do not go to personal attacks, As soon as you go to personal attacks and start name calling you're asking to have the thread shut down. I would have liked to have been more involved in the covid 19 thread, because with a wife working with it on the front lines I felt I could have added a lot to the discussion, but it became too personal and snarky for my interest. I love a good debate, but I like to debate the issues specifically. I can disagree strongly with someone and still speak to them respectfully and formulate my posts in a respectful manner. Unfortunately many in the covid thread did not do that - it became snarky, biting, digging, calling people stupid, and that is what I think derailed the discussion. The moderators let it go on for around 100 pages worth before it was squashed. Because of these issues I cant get on board the censorship train. I think honestly the mods likely wouldnt have cared about a covid 19 thread continuing, but when it went personal it crossed a line. I enjoy debating, I done it for years in online forums just because I enjoyed it. One lesson I learned is that your approach and behaviour as a discussion or debate progresses often holds more power on those who disagree with you than any facts or data you can lay out - no matter how articulate you lay it out. You cant berate someone and then expect to win an argument. The original covid 19 thread was a good example of that playing out. Many folks in that thread, many who I actually agree with on the issue, went too aggressive to the point it was nauseating for even me to continue to follow it. It was just beating a dead horse over and over and then berating anyone who dissented. This is so typical of folks who are amateurs at debating an issue. They get so overloaded with passion about their viewpoint that they just try to railroad people, rather than taking the more mature approach and stepping back from their passion, checking themselves, and staying focused on the facts alone, while remaining respectful in your presentation.
I agree 100% that censorship stinks. I am someone who is very hawkish on issues of free expression and individual liberty and certainly of free speech. I watched that covid thread though and how it evolved. I dont view its being locked as censorship. If it was a good discussion on just the facts and the mods had shut it down then I would 100% be on board. That wasn't about censoring covid views though, it was about where the thread devolved. This is a very serious distinction. You have to have enough self awareness to step back and look at things objectively however. You have to be secure enough with yourself to question your own motives and emotions. You also have to be mature enough to admit when you likely contributed to the denigration of the discussion that ultimately lead to it being locked. The blame is not sorely on the shoulder of the moderators. I am likely more sensitive to their position because I used to be in their shoes as Ive shared before. Ive had the censorship charges leveled at me simply because I stepped in to stop what was essentially cyber bullying on my platform in the past. You cant personally attack people and then blame the moderators when they shut it down.
I would also just add that someone who truly, and I mean truly believes that censorship is occurring, the way you prove that is to again stay on topic and fact based and remain respectful and then let the mods shut down discussion. If they shut down a perfectly civil discussion then you would have a lot of people on your side here, including me. When I see however that the main contributor of the denigration of that previous thread is also the one lobbing the censorship allegation however, it speaks to a different issue at play.
Lastly, I would just add that I don't want to gun you NHS. I have found I agree with you on many issues as I've posted around on these forums. In many threads you offer up a lot of good posts. You and I are two people who would likely get along very well. I actually am your ally on the covid issue as well - You and I likely agree on most of the issue. You and I also both have wives who have been on the front lines of this, so we have a lot to add to the discussion that some others may not have given we are kind of in the middle of the issue, rather than removed from it and watching it all from afar. However, I do feel your approach was unhelpful to the cause. I disagree with some of the same folks you disagree with - but I cant get on board with attacking them or insulting their intelligence just because they disagree with me. I also cant get on board when that approach ultimately fails and the mods step in to say enough is enough. That simply isnt censorship my friend. I see censorship as a pretty loaded charge, and I am a stickler for truth, especially truth as it relates to language. I feel we water way too many words down these days for political expediency. Racism for example is a charge that has been so watered down, all because it is used tirelessly as a weapon to destroy those with with you disagree. I hate to see language weaponized in this way, distorted in this way.
Stopping all discussion (closing a thread) is only one form of censorship.
I have had messages deleted as well as edited. That is censorship - full stop. And not deleted for being vulgar, offensive, or saying something that is untrue, but simply because he did not like the posts. If he deleted all the ones around mine at the same times, I could kind of see it, but so far that has never been the case.
Well I cant speak to that then, if that has occurred. I can only speak to what I have seen. I also often go days a time without visiting these forums so I tend to miss a lot in that time. True censorship I will never support. If for example ideas and points of view are being cherry picked and edited then I would not support that. Id like to see a detailed account of this laid out, along with examples of what was changed or edited and what was deleted. Before such as that occurred I would prefer they just shut down the entire off topic forum - again that would only be if this is truly occurring. The motive of the admin taking such actions would be what is important to try and understand. If the motive is driven by political or personal bias of a certain viewpoint, so they are thus striking viewpoints they disagree with, then we have a problem. If they are however trying to get a handle of the more aggressive dialogue that has been cropping up then my feelings would be very different. The devil is in the details.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's a duck. Same thing with censorship. I was one that was censored on the other CV19 thread (Sheep wasn't). Said I was reported by SEVERAL members as violating Forum rules. What I found telling was that the thread was closed even before the Poll was completed. Seems like censorship to me.
Unfortunately, if you post a lot, it can be hard to tell when something is deleted (it is just gone) or edited.
It's all good, they can censor and delete what they feel is appropriate, their forum and all. I will still never agree with it (censorship) and will continue to stand by my statement.
armylifer
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I am probably going to regret getting into this discussion but I am going to anyway.
I have seen an example of what I consider true censorship just yesterday. I was participating in the discussion and about to like a post that someone made. I got the message that the post was not found. The post was less than 1 minute old and it was deleted completely. There was nothing in the post that was even remotely disrespectful, or any kind of violation of site rules. There was no name calling or even pointing a finger at anyone. The post simply stated an opinion, that is all. It was deleted for no good reason and to me it looked like it was just deleted because the moderator disagreed with it. I called it censorship in that thread and I stand by that charge. The thing is, that post was probably only seen by one or two people before it was deleted so almost no one besides me and the person who posted it know what was said in that post.
I cut and pasted Mr K's rules and etiquette for the Off Topic Forum in case you haven't read them.
"Evening folks,
Vic and I like to kid around a lot and not take things too seriously. We encourage off topic discussion here and lighthearted jokes and fun but this Off Topic forum is not one of those "anything goes" locations on the internet.
Please keep your postings:
* free of jokes or humor which are more than PG-13 in nature
* free of racial and heavy political commentary
* free of pictures of videos which are sexual in nature, depict nudity or show violence against other human beings or animals
We want OrangeTractorTalks to remain accessible and approachable to folks around the world. It should be a welcoming and warm community of individuals who share a common passion for the best orange machine out there. To achieve this, we need you to use your best judgement when posting in the Off Topic forum.
As always, thank you for visiting OrangeTractorTalks! We appreciate you stopping by to take a look.
Mr. K"
I suggest that anyone that doesn't share or abide by these thoughts be banned from posting in the Off Topic forum.
"Evening folks,
Vic and I like to kid around a lot and not take things too seriously. We encourage off topic discussion here and lighthearted jokes and fun but this Off Topic forum is not one of those "anything goes" locations on the internet.
Please keep your postings:
* free of jokes or humor which are more than PG-13 in nature
* free of racial and heavy political commentary
* free of pictures of videos which are sexual in nature, depict nudity or show violence against other human beings or animals
We want OrangeTractorTalks to remain accessible and approachable to folks around the world. It should be a welcoming and warm community of individuals who share a common passion for the best orange machine out there. To achieve this, we need you to use your best judgement when posting in the Off Topic forum.
As always, thank you for visiting OrangeTractorTalks! We appreciate you stopping by to take a look.
Mr. K"
I suggest that anyone that doesn't share or abide by these thoughts be banned from posting in the Off Topic forum.
armylifer
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RCW
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Sheepfarmer posted the Rules of the Off Topic Forum.
I have no issue with your right to free speech.
I am VERY adamant about property rights. Probably the result of growing up a farmer in a very rural area and having many acres of land.
I have an issue with what some think are perceived rights that they have while on others' property.
Can someone come to your front lawn/property and post a sign without your permission? Of course not. At my house, the sign would be gone.
Can a person or group of people come on your property for the purpose to espouse their cause, irrespective of your position related to the cause? Of course not. At my house, it really wouldn't be a good choice for them....
You and I are guests on someone else's "property." I view it no differently than a person I allow onto my own property today.
If you're on my property, you damned-well better abide by my rules. Ask my kids if I EVER waivered from MY RULES!
My property; my rules....
In the same vein, I was raised to respect others' property, and the rules that go along with that property.
Last I knew, none of the folks complaining about right of speech/censorship have ownership rights at OTT.
Isn't OTT intellectual property owned and paid for by Mr. K and Vic?
You want to play in someone else's sandbox, the respectful thing to do is to abide by the rules of that sandbox.
Disrespect of someone else's property, to me, is not an endearing quality.
That's the way I was raised, and instilled to my own children....betting my grandchildren will have the same perspective, if and when they arrive...
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Admiral points all. However, just because someone complains to a Moderator about a post(s) CONTINUALLY doesn't make it a violation of the rules. It's called a difference of opinion. Moderators get tired of fielding complaints and, at least here, the Moderator chooses to close discussion rather than let the discussion continue. The Covid 19 thread that was closed is a very good example. Very current topic and of great import. I would say the majority of opinions were anti Fauci/govt intervention and restrictions; others disagreed. Those that felt compelled to go to the Moderator and lodge a complaint were losing the argument based on factual information. It did become political because the MSM made it political. Now with newer information about the almost total lack of benefit of Masks and such the intent is very clear. It's mostly about control, not the Virus. Sweden is a country that has gotten it right; hopefully the USA will get it right as well.
Again, I agree with your notion about land/property, I was raised on a farm to, only 120 acres, but we didn't allow just anyone on there unless they stopped and got permission.
Again, I agree with your notion about land/property, I was raised on a farm to, only 120 acres, but we didn't allow just anyone on there unless they stopped and got permission.
Sure sure. Same with my family.
However I have never invited someone over the house and told them what to say, or how to say it. I have never told someone to leave our house because I didn't agree with them. You must treat your visitors much different than we treat ours, it IS your property however, so I respect your decision.
I have still have yet to see an example of the rules being broken. They certainly were not broken in my posts that were deleted.
I am ASSUMING Sheep means political content surrounding other subjects. Does her posting negatively about the president count? Or just other people she doesn't agree with? For all the complaining I hear, I don't see any examples. Can you point out any? Any at all? What "rules" were broken? They make it sound like it is running rampant so there should be a bunch of easy examples.
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