BX25 won't crank all of sudden

North Idaho Wolfman

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So you have a safety switch / fuse / or wire issue.

It's a simple circuit, that you can meter or test light.

Main switch, to PTO switch to HST switch to starter;


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yzinger

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Little update today. I retested the small black and white wire ensuring I had test lead on a good ground. I am getting consistent reading around 10.86volts. Recall the large lug has consistent 12.55 volts.

I think the started and solenoid are getting the juice they need and issue is internal to starter or solenoid.

I also ran 12volts directly from another battery to the small black and white connection and same condition. Starter will not spin. Also, it seems when I turn key to start the voltage at that small black and white wire drops to 1 or zero....maybe there is an internal short in the solenoid.

I have removed the starter and hoping I can do some bench testing to confirm. Can anyone comment on that?


Thanks
 

Pawnee

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I think you have done everything you can with testing the starter.

You're either going to have to take it apart or get another one.
 

yzinger

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yeah i guess running power to big lug and also the small spade is really all you can do. Which i did do on the tractor which takes all safety stuff out of equation. Must be starter.
 

yzinger

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Had the starter tested this morning and no problem the guy bench tested it ok. I don't understand :mad:

The only thing I noticed he did different is jumped the solenoid blade connection FROM the large lug on the starter.

He grounded starter via one alligator, put positive to the large lug and had a jumper of that connection to solenoid.

When I tested I ran a positive wire from battery positive straight to the solenoid blade connection.
 

Pawnee

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I think that means the only thing left is that the starter is not connecting well to ground.
Clean the places where it contacts the tractor as you bolt it back in.

No significant difference what he did with the solenoid lug.
 

yzinger

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Yeah those are my thoughts too.

I'll do that and recheck all the grounds too. If i could ever get the machine back into the garage I can investigate in more detail.
 

Henro

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Had the starter tested this morning and no problem the guy bench tested it ok. I don't understand :mad:

The only thing I noticed he did different is jumped the solenoid blade connection FROM the large lug on the starter.

He grounded starter via one alligator, put positive to the large lug and had a jumper of that connection to solenoid.

When I tested I ran a positive wire from battery positive straight to the solenoid blade connection.
You need to measure voltage when you do what you did. I don’t remember if you did or not.

There’s a possibility that you have a bad connection between the clamp on the battery post and the battery post itself.

At this point, you really need to start taking voltage measurements when you do things, and this will lead you to the solution of the problem. Again, I don’t remember if you did or not, but my guess is if you did, you still need to do more voltage checks for the purpose of analysis.
 

yzinger

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Yeah, the large post on starter measures 12+ with key off and key on.

The small blade connection measures 10.86+ with key turned. It should spin for sure.

Because the starter guy was able to bench test so easily with 3 things it is one of those 3 things not working in my case. The 3 things were:

Grounded to the starter
12v to large large
12v to small blade.

..I think I have proven I have 12v to both with key turned so only thing left is ground I guess. Looks like the starter grounds via being bolted to the frame. Those bolts were tight when i removed starter but was some dirt and stuff around the connection to tractor.
 

Russell King

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You also need to clean the ground cable end that connects to the tractor. I think I saw a ground cable that was on the starter attachment bolt. Is that connected to the battery directly or does it go to the frame?

You might want to check the integrity of both battery cables and see if they have any issues with internal corrosion.
 

yzinger

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You also need to clean the ground cable end that connects to the tractor. I think I saw a ground cable that was on the starter attachment bolt. Is that connected to the battery directly or does it go to the frame?

You might want to check the integrity of both battery cables and see if they have any issues with internal corrosion.
That ground strap is not connected to the starter attachment bolts. It goes right to frame and I dont think that particular one goes direct to battery.
 

Russell King

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I recommend you clean all of the connections from the battery to the tractor and any ground straps at both ends. Even if they look like they are okay, just make everything shiny and put it back together.
 

Henro

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Yeah, the large post on starter measures 12+ with key off and key on.

The small blade connection measures 10.86+ with key turned. It should spin for sure.

Because the starter guy was able to bench test so easily with 3 things it is one of those 3 things not working in my case. The 3 things were:

Grounded to the starter
12v to large large
12v to small blade.

..I think I have proven I have 12v to both with key turned so only thing left is ground I guess. Looks like the starter grounds via being bolted to the frame. Those bolts were tight when i removed starter but was some dirt and stuff around the connection to tractor.
I assume you mean you had 12 V on the large lug of the starter when the key was turned fully to the start position? If so, where was your other test lead positioned? You probably should do that test with the positive lead on the main lug of the starter, and the negative lead on the starter housing itself.

If you do this, you will probably find that you don’t have 12 V across the starter when you try to start the engine. This would indicate you have a bad connection somewhere in the circuit, and you should do what others have suggested to correct it.

It’s not rocket science, but you do need to make your reference measurement in a way that will lead you to finding the solution.

For example, if you had your negative lead on the negative battery post, and the positive lead on the main log of the starter, you would always measure 12 V if you had a good circuit between the positive terminal of the battery, and the main lug of the starter. But the starter motor would not see 12 volts applied to it because of a issue with the negative return path.
 

yzinger

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I assume you mean you had 12 V on the large lug of the starter when the key was turned fully to the start position? If so, where was your other test lead positioned? You probably should do that test with the positive lead on the main lug of the starter, and the negative lead on the starter housing itself.

If you do this, you will probably find that you don’t have 12 V across the starter when you try to start the engine. This would indicate you have a bad connection somewhere in the circuit, and you should do what others have suggested to correct it.

It’s not rocket science, but you do need to make your reference measurement in a way that will lead you to finding the solution.

For example, if you had your negative lead on the negative battery post, and the positive lead on the main log of the starter, you would always measure 12 V if you had a good circuit between the positive terminal of the battery, and the main lug of the starter. But the starter motor would not see 12 volts applied to it because of a issue with the negative return path.
I like where this is going and helpful for others down the road.

In my case when I was checking I would put one test lead on main lug and the other one to a frame bolt or unpainted area.

I will do this test with the meter next time I look at it., If I dont get 12v when doing this test does it in fact mean I am having a ground issue (negative return path)?
 
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Henro

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I like where this is going and helpful for others down the road.

In my case when I was checking I would put one test lead on main lug and the other one to a frame bolt or unpainted area.

I will do this test with the meter next time I look at it., If I dont get 12v when doing this test does it in fact mean I am having a ground issue (negative return path)?
Since the battery is the source of voltage, which supplies the current necessary to make the starter turn, it’s a good idea to make your measurements with reference to the battery posts themselves. NOT the clamp on lugs on the battery, the posts themselves.

All the starter motor cares about is getting voltage between the positive lug and the starter motor case, since the case is connected to the engine, and the engine is connected to the frame, and the frame is connected to the negative battery terminal via the clamp on the battery post.

If you measure voltage between the positive, post on the starter, and the case of the starter, this will tell you if the starter is seeing the voltage it needs to turn. And if the voltage drops when you turn the key to the start position, this indicates, you have an issue external to the starter. It is the magnetic effect of the current that flows through the starter that causes the starter armature to turn. If the voltage drops at the moment, you turn the key to the start position, then the proper current will not flow through the starter, and the starter won’t produce the normal amount of torque.

So the very important first measurement is to measure the voltage between the main lug on the starter and the starter case, when you turn the key to the start position, and when the starter should turn. Since you have had the starter checked by somebody that apparently knows how to check starters, and it seems to be good, chances are very high that you have a problem in the external circuit.

If you do, the next step would be to measure voltage between the negative terminal of the battery and the starter motor case. You should read 0 V at all times or very close to it. If you suddenly see the voltage rise significantly when you turn the key to the full start position, then you know you have an issue in the negative return path of the battery between the starter case and the battery negative post.

You can do the same thing on the positive side. If you measure voltage between the positive battery post and the main lug on the starter motor. You should always measure 0 V or very close to it. If that voltage jumps relatively high when you turn the key to the fully start position, then you have an issue between the battery positive post and the positive terminal on the starter.

Making these two kinds of measurements will certainly point you in the right direction as to solving the problem.

edit: Another very simple first test is to measure the voltage between the battery posts when you turn the key to the start position. The voltage should hold constant or close to it. If the voltage suddenly drops significantly, and the starter doesn’t turn, the problem is your battery.
 
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yzinger

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Hi all - did some testing as noted above last night and things are as you describe. With positive probe on starter lug and negative node just on starter case I have 12v UNTIL the key is turned.

Also, running a jumper from the large lug on starter to the spade connection DID NOT start the tractor.

But back to line one and that test - thats a great test because obviously if my voltage drops when key is turned then of course there is an issue. So next step is to trace and check the ground/s from starter case back to battery.

I will do that but if i had to get tractor jumped could i maybe run a wire from one of the starter bolts to the frame? I mean the case being installed should do it but it isnt.


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If you do, the next step would be to measure voltage between the negative terminal of the battery and the starter motor case. You should read 0 V at all times or very close to it. If you suddenly see the voltage rise significantly when you turn the key to the full start position, then you know you have an issue in the negative return path of the battery between the starter case and the battery negative post.
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GSD-Keegan

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Another quick and easy….run a booster cable from starter motor case to negative post of battery
 

GreensvilleJay

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It sounds like the battery cables need to be replaced. While they'll show a voltage at the starter, they can't pass the current.