BX 3-Cylinder Turbo?
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85Hokie
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BX-25D ,PTB. Under Armor, '90&'92-B7100HST's, '06 BX1850 FEL
I think that will be like giving a prostitute a 2 carrot diamond ring ! That might not be politically correct - but the point is .............. the gain will not be worth the time and effort!!
North Idaho Wolfman
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I've done lots of turbo's over the years. Never a BX, but did do a G1900 (D722). Power difference is negligible. If you had to buy all the stuff to do it properly, it's not worth it. If you already have it and it was all basically free, maybe....keeping in mind that you can't use just any turbo; it MUST be properly "sized" for your application and engine.
Also did an RTV-X1100. You'd think it would make a huge difference. Nope still slow, still accelerates slow, still sluggish. In a drag race between a bone stock X1100 and a turbo X1100, there is about one vehicle length difference over roughly a 1/4 mile. Keep in mind, the kit (turbo kit) was $2000+installation labor and it is more than a couple hours. The owner was MAD about spending that much and getting little. His expectations were high based on the company advertising "up to 50% more power"....he forgot about the "up to" part.
there have been arguements about this on this site quite a bit and my experience has always been the same. On Kubota diesels that are normally aspirated, adding the turbo by itself does very little. There are many other changes that need to be made and even then it's still nothing like a gas burner, where the power doubles or triples....just ain't happening on most kubota diesels.
Also did an RTV-X1100. You'd think it would make a huge difference. Nope still slow, still accelerates slow, still sluggish. In a drag race between a bone stock X1100 and a turbo X1100, there is about one vehicle length difference over roughly a 1/4 mile. Keep in mind, the kit (turbo kit) was $2000+installation labor and it is more than a couple hours. The owner was MAD about spending that much and getting little. His expectations were high based on the company advertising "up to 50% more power"....he forgot about the "up to" part.
there have been arguements about this on this site quite a bit and my experience has always been the same. On Kubota diesels that are normally aspirated, adding the turbo by itself does very little. There are many other changes that need to be made and even then it's still nothing like a gas burner, where the power doubles or triples....just ain't happening on most kubota diesels.
If you wish to see if this might work you can go on youtube and check out tractor time with Tim. He did a 1025r Deere and documents it well. He has 2 tractors and makes side by side comparisons. By watching his videos I figure it would be a waste of money. When you kick up the power it just over powers the hydro and I am thinking there will be trouble later. As my neighbor says when you build the engine, you smoke the tranny, build the tranny and take out the rear end. It is all matched fairly well by the manufacturer with some cushion built in. You just don't know how much cushion, and I prefer not to pay the tuition to get that education. I have a son who has tested this theory and paid tuition.
Lipstick, meet pig.
But cosmetics and pork aside, this is the real reason:
Probably not. IF you do, you are probably pushing the machine too hard and something is going to break soon.
But cosmetics and pork aside, this is the real reason:
And even if you could double the HP and not break the machine, just what would you do with that power? Are you really going to get work done much faster?
Probably not. IF you do, you are probably pushing the machine too hard and something is going to break soon.
Kubota offers some 3 cylinder engines factory turbo charged. D1105 comes to mind off the top of my head. Now converting is a bit different then add on turbo. Gains are directly proportionate to boost pressure and the engines ability to fuel for the extra air. (Not taking into account mechanical reliability )
We used to do this to the old 6.9 and 7.3l ih/ ford engines. Gains were noticeable after fuel was increased to a point. Having no afc to add fuel as boost pressure increased made it difficult to tailor the fuel system. Yes just adding a properly sized turbo will net some gain,but not the same as having the matching fuel system to go with it. Comparing a turbo gas engine to a turbo diesel is like apples and oranges. Two totally different approaches to fuel systems and engine design.
With that said, the above advise from others is pretty much sound. As an owner of a 12v 5.9l cummins, I've broken more transmissions, driveshafts and axles then I care to admit. The engine has been the (mostly) trouble free part of it. Better off leaving well enough alone.
We used to do this to the old 6.9 and 7.3l ih/ ford engines. Gains were noticeable after fuel was increased to a point. Having no afc to add fuel as boost pressure increased made it difficult to tailor the fuel system. Yes just adding a properly sized turbo will net some gain,but not the same as having the matching fuel system to go with it. Comparing a turbo gas engine to a turbo diesel is like apples and oranges. Two totally different approaches to fuel systems and engine design.
With that said, the above advise from others is pretty much sound. As an owner of a 12v 5.9l cummins, I've broken more transmissions, driveshafts and axles then I care to admit. The engine has been the (mostly) trouble free part of it. Better off leaving well enough alone.
and don't forget that simply shoving more air into it ain't doing anything but maybe clearing up some tailpipe smoke, to a point.
At that point, you have to look at EGT.
It's entirely possible to shove enough air into the engine that EGT goes way high and then you start melting pistons, sinking valves, tulip'ing valves, burning them, head gaskets, taxing an already taxed cooling system, running the transmission hot (and remember a BX ain't got no trans fluid cooler) among many other things.
5 psi is about all you can get away with, safely. Won't even notice 5 psi unless you're at 10,000 feet altitude or more. Then you get to enjoy the benefit.
So a lot of guys start cranking up the boost, which is fairly easy to do. Great. Makes power now. Also great is that it's entirely possible that your compressor is running hot, shoving hot air into the engine, making more egt, reducing power, increasing the engine oil temp, reducing the life of the turbo, etc. Also, non intercooled engines will make power for a little bit but after a while they start blowing hot air which reduces power even more. The original Powerstroke diesels were notorious for this. A long-ish run down the interstate with a load, you noticed a power loss (heat). In '99 they put an intercooler up there, and it was daylight and dark difference (but there were also a ton of other changes too). Intercoolers make a huge difference in that department, but on a BX there's no room for one. There's barely room for an engine on that thing, so you are on your own there.
Last issue is sourcing the parts and then installing. Turbo's come in TONS of variations, so one from a D1005 may be too "big" for yours, or one from a D722 may be too "small". Remember there are differences in the turbine and compressor housings, the wheels, and a ton of other things--and OEM's match the turbocharger TO the application. A generator with a D722-T may run for days/weeks on end at full throttle, great application for a turbo at 5-7 psi with a somewhat "larger" compressor. In a tractor aplication, it may be too little or too big. Probably too little since generators run at 1800-2200 RPM mostly and a BX or mower may run at 3500-3700. Then, May not be enough room between the engine and the lower hood. Run without the lower hood, wouldn't be the first I've seen or heard of it. You're gonna have to figure out the oil drain, may already be a hole in the block for it. Feed is no problem as most of them have a drilled passage already there, just plugged
been there done that, isn't worth the expense if you have to buy all the parts. If it's all free, it's probably worth doing. If you care about the tractor and all the stuff costs money to buy, definitely not worth it. Knock around tractor that you don't care much about? Free parts? By all means go for it!
At that point, you have to look at EGT.
It's entirely possible to shove enough air into the engine that EGT goes way high and then you start melting pistons, sinking valves, tulip'ing valves, burning them, head gaskets, taxing an already taxed cooling system, running the transmission hot (and remember a BX ain't got no trans fluid cooler) among many other things.
5 psi is about all you can get away with, safely. Won't even notice 5 psi unless you're at 10,000 feet altitude or more. Then you get to enjoy the benefit.
So a lot of guys start cranking up the boost, which is fairly easy to do. Great. Makes power now. Also great is that it's entirely possible that your compressor is running hot, shoving hot air into the engine, making more egt, reducing power, increasing the engine oil temp, reducing the life of the turbo, etc. Also, non intercooled engines will make power for a little bit but after a while they start blowing hot air which reduces power even more. The original Powerstroke diesels were notorious for this. A long-ish run down the interstate with a load, you noticed a power loss (heat). In '99 they put an intercooler up there, and it was daylight and dark difference (but there were also a ton of other changes too). Intercoolers make a huge difference in that department, but on a BX there's no room for one. There's barely room for an engine on that thing, so you are on your own there.
Last issue is sourcing the parts and then installing. Turbo's come in TONS of variations, so one from a D1005 may be too "big" for yours, or one from a D722 may be too "small". Remember there are differences in the turbine and compressor housings, the wheels, and a ton of other things--and OEM's match the turbocharger TO the application. A generator with a D722-T may run for days/weeks on end at full throttle, great application for a turbo at 5-7 psi with a somewhat "larger" compressor. In a tractor aplication, it may be too little or too big. Probably too little since generators run at 1800-2200 RPM mostly and a BX or mower may run at 3500-3700. Then, May not be enough room between the engine and the lower hood. Run without the lower hood, wouldn't be the first I've seen or heard of it. You're gonna have to figure out the oil drain, may already be a hole in the block for it. Feed is no problem as most of them have a drilled passage already there, just plugged
been there done that, isn't worth the expense if you have to buy all the parts. If it's all free, it's probably worth doing. If you care about the tractor and all the stuff costs money to buy, definitely not worth it. Knock around tractor that you don't care much about? Free parts? By all means go for it!
A diesel engine will rev as far as it can with the fuel you give it and the the load it's straining against. In most cases if you are part throttle, the reason a diesel doesn't spin faster and just 'stops' at a certain rpm is because you're already burning all the fuel you're giving it, which means shoving more air in with a turbo would accomplish nearly nothing in those conditions.
Where the turbo would help is when the engine loses rpm because a load is dragging it down and is not able to burn all the fuel you're giving it. At that point the turbo would increase the ability of the engine to cope with that load by increasing the amount of fuel the engine can burn at that rpm (by increasing the oxygen available in the combustion chamber through a denser 'charge') but unless you are frequently already at full throttle and still having the engine 'bog down' under load, a turbo wouldn't do much.
It's only going to improve performance under conditions where the engine is currently losing rpm due to load. If you don't experience the engine slowing down frequently from the things you're trying to do, it wouldn't help any.
Where the turbo would help is when the engine loses rpm because a load is dragging it down and is not able to burn all the fuel you're giving it. At that point the turbo would increase the ability of the engine to cope with that load by increasing the amount of fuel the engine can burn at that rpm (by increasing the oxygen available in the combustion chamber through a denser 'charge') but unless you are frequently already at full throttle and still having the engine 'bog down' under load, a turbo wouldn't do much.
It's only going to improve performance under conditions where the engine is currently losing rpm due to load. If you don't experience the engine slowing down frequently from the things you're trying to do, it wouldn't help any.
More air doesn't increase egt in a diesel. More fuel does, it's not a gas engine. A "rich" fuel condition causes high temps in a diesel. The exact opposite of a as engine.
What @Vigo explains is partially true. Just the turbo with no added fuel is more or less a moot point. The extra fuel is needed to get the extra power potential of the air from the turbo. Turbo engines have a feature called an anaroid fuel control, that monitures boost pressure amd allows the fuel rack to advance for more fuel at a given amount of boost pressure. This accomplishes several things, first not over fuling the engine before the turbo is up to pressure and when the turbo is at pressure it allows the extra fuel needed. This is all dependent on engine load, rpm, and weather your in the turbos performance sweet spot. Additionally limiting boost to low pressures is a design limit in any given engine.
Gas engines were mostly never intended to be turbo charged. Hence the very low limits on boost pressure, unless substantial work is done.
Diesels on the other hand are built much more robust. Typically the head gasket will be the failure if too much pressure is applied. This can be mitigated through head studs, o-ringing, and lastly replacing the fire ring in the head gasket with a mild steel ring, in conjunction with head studs. I can tell you first hand what more power from a diesel costs. It ain't cheap.
What @Vigo explains is partially true. Just the turbo with no added fuel is more or less a moot point. The extra fuel is needed to get the extra power potential of the air from the turbo. Turbo engines have a feature called an anaroid fuel control, that monitures boost pressure amd allows the fuel rack to advance for more fuel at a given amount of boost pressure. This accomplishes several things, first not over fuling the engine before the turbo is up to pressure and when the turbo is at pressure it allows the extra fuel needed. This is all dependent on engine load, rpm, and weather your in the turbos performance sweet spot. Additionally limiting boost to low pressures is a design limit in any given engine.
Gas engines were mostly never intended to be turbo charged. Hence the very low limits on boost pressure, unless substantial work is done.
Diesels on the other hand are built much more robust. Typically the head gasket will be the failure if too much pressure is applied. This can be mitigated through head studs, o-ringing, and lastly replacing the fire ring in the head gasket with a mild steel ring, in conjunction with head studs. I can tell you first hand what more power from a diesel costs. It ain't cheap.
I never run out of power with my BX, only traction.
I don't use a brush hog with the BX, but even then I doubt I would run out of power with a correctly sized brush hog.
Spending money and time to get more power out of the BX in my case would be a waste of money, time and energy.
What am I missing, other than doing something, like climbing a mountain "because it is there", is fun for some people...
I don't use a brush hog with the BX, but even then I doubt I would run out of power with a correctly sized brush hog.
Spending money and time to get more power out of the BX in my case would be a waste of money, time and energy.
What am I missing, other than doing something, like climbing a mountain "because it is there", is fun for some people...
ken erickson
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B7100 hst, 2650 front mount snowblower, L2501 hst qa loader
I am in the minority but personally glad that people are willing to tinker, experiment , customize and modify equipment in the quest for more HP, efficiency etc.
I am not sure why as tractor owners we would discourage someone from modding their own equipment. If smart enough to take on these projects they also should be smart enough to assume the risks, both mechanically and financially. Countless mods on cars, trucks, airplanes, tractors have filtered down to the production line because of these folks that are willing to tinker.
I am not sure why as tractor owners we would discourage someone from modding their own equipment. If smart enough to take on these projects they also should be smart enough to assume the risks, both mechanically and financially. Countless mods on cars, trucks, airplanes, tractors have filtered down to the production line because of these folks that are willing to tinker.
The only place I can think of that adding a turbo without fuel mods would help much is if you're operating at altitude. In that case you're running out of air before you run out of fuel to burn. The turbo can supply the air you 'lost'. You wouldn't get more power than stock, but you'd recover most of what you lost due to altitude.
If I were operating above about 4000', I'd consider a turbo tractor. I think I've read Kubota limits their recommended altitude, to keep from over revving the turbo I guess.
Oh, I dunno, maybe because he asked for opinions, and we gave him our opinions?
When did that become a problem?
if your turbo is out of its efficiency range, e.g., blowing hot air, it absolutely will increase egt. You're shoving 300+ degree air into the engine. Air at 36 psi (22 psi on a boost gauge) is denser at 100 degrees than 36 psi at 300+ degrees. Density meaning more oxygen in the charge. Oxygen does most of the work.
IF it's got an intercooler that actually works, it's still gonna be hot but not "as" hot.
If the turbo is sized properly, it is not an issue. Sometimes we (and I) forget that they ain't all sized corrected for the engine and application. I have broken plenty of engines because of this....I may not be an expert, but I've put a turbocharger on about everything and have learned LOTS.
I did not know about the rack control....interesting.
IF it's got an intercooler that actually works, it's still gonna be hot but not "as" hot.
If the turbo is sized properly, it is not an issue. Sometimes we (and I) forget that they ain't all sized corrected for the engine and application. I have broken plenty of engines because of this....I may not be an expert, but I've put a turbocharger on about everything and have learned LOTS.
I did not know about the rack control....interesting.
In my Honda Pioneer SxS…adding a turbo would be worthless with the factory gearing.
In a BX the addition of a properly fueled turbo application would offer limited benefits.
On my L2501 adding a properly fueled and sized turbo will allow me to use the high gear, power larger PTO implements, traverse my steep hills and use larger PTO implements on my hills…all without DPF. That’s why I’m working on a turbo kit for this particular tractor.
Mike
In a BX the addition of a properly fueled turbo application would offer limited benefits.
On my L2501 adding a properly fueled and sized turbo will allow me to use the high gear, power larger PTO implements, traverse my steep hills and use larger PTO implements on my hills…all without DPF. That’s why I’m working on a turbo kit for this particular tractor.
Mike
Yud also be interested to know intercoolers we're added because of tier 2 emissions requirements. A engine doesn't need an intercooler if the turbo is sized properly. The cooler aircharge reduced n0x emissions. Look back at nearly all pre 1990 diesel engines. Not many had a intercooler unless it was a high hp engine, and even then they were typically water to air after coolers.
Also a turbo is an air compressor so it doesn't really matter if it's in or out of its efficiency range it makes hot air. Just the nature of the beast. The old way of looking at it was more(higher volume) hot air is better then less cool air. (I use the terms hot and cool very lightly) in either way with the proper turbo and proper fuel the engine will make more power.
The technical aspects are not really of this topic.
Then why'd you bring it up?
Your statements are only half truth which is what we find much of on the interwebs.