Beginning to troubleshoot starting problems

[Tractor Gal]

Foiled again. Everything working on BX23, new hydraulic hoses, etc...now, can't start it! :-( When I attempted to start, the dash lights came on but nothing else. Of course I tried this multiple times and, at times, there would be a single
click on the right side and then after releasing the key and about 10 seconds another click on the left side.

I have been doing some research about how to troubleshoot although I haven't done anything yet. Taking the "bonnet" off with the grill guard there is a task and I wasn't up to it. My plan is to get started on the hunt for the problem on
Monday. I am going to put the multimeter positive lead on the positive post of the starter and the negative lead on
the starter to body to check the voltage. If it's less than 9.5V, starter is bad. I found this info posted by White Tiger somewhere and I know he knows what he's doing.

Next, I'm going to test the safety switches to see if they have continuity. That is, if I can get to them! I know the speed lever has a switch that can be reached when the right side rear tire is removed so we'll see about that.

I've had a bit of a starting problem for a while now but it always finally started. When I turned the key and let the glow plugs do their thing for a few seconds, it would often start. But sometimes, it would do just as it is now...key turned, glow plugs "glowing" for a few seconds but no starter turn over. In the past, I would jiggle the ignition area a bit and it would start. Once it was started, there was never a problem on re-starting if I stopped it while out working.

I had purchased a new ignition a couple of weeks ago, thinking the ignition module may be the problem but I hadn't installed it...until now! I put it in but had the same result so that eliminates that. From this point, I don't want to try to "guess."

I'd like to try to start this by bypassing the starter to get the tractor running but I'm not quite sure how to do that. And, maybe that wouldn't be the best of ideas until I'm desperate.

Other than the methods described above, are there any other tips that I could try? I know that people have talked about a starter relay to keep the voltage up at the starter but I don't know if these symptoms indicate that would be helpful. It doesn't seem to hard to install one of those. I also think that the starter contacts can be replaced but I didn't see them listed at Messick's. They have a starter kit listed but it doesn't tell what's in the kit. Maybe that's it? I replaced the brushes in the generator of a 2N so it wouldn't seem replacing the starter contacts in a Kubota would be too difficult.

Any help would be very much appreciated. The grass will need mowing before long. And, I know we've got geniuses here.

TG

 

[ejb11235]

When I attempted to start, the dash lights came on but nothing else. Of course I tried this multiple times and, at times, there would be a single click on the right side and then after releasing the key and about 10 seconds another click on the left side.

What do you think is causing the clicks and what hypotheses have you formed based on this evidence?

I am going to put the multimeter positive lead on the positive post of the starter and the negative lead on the starter to body to check the voltage. If it's less than 9.5V, starter is bad.

You're going to measure the voltage from the starter positive lead to ground under what condition? Are you going to turn the key? How would a voltage of less than 9.5V indicate that the starter is bad? What if the voltage is 0?

Next, I'm going to test the safety switches to see if they have continuity.

I've had a bit of a starting problem for a while now but it always finally started. When I turned the key and let the glow plugs do their thing for a few seconds, it would often start. But sometimes, it would do just as it is now...key turned, glow plugs "glowing" for a few seconds but no starter turn over. In the past, I would jiggle the ignition area a bit and it would start. Once it was started, there was never a problem on re-starting if I stopped it while out working.

This seems like a pretty important fact pattern. Historical intermittent starting problem, jiggling, then eventual total failure. Could indicate the physical location of the problem. On the other hand, it could be totally spurious...perhaps the operator presence switch (OPS) is bad and the act of jiggling the key while in the seat introduced enough movement to cause the OPS to finally closed.

I had purchased a new ignition a couple of weeks ago, thinking the ignition module may be the problem but I hadn't installed it...until now! I put it in but had the same result so that eliminates that.

By "ignition" I assume you mean what the WSM refers to as the "main switch"? What is "the ignition module"?

I'd like to try to start this by bypassing the starter to get the tractor running but I'm not quite sure how to do that.

Bypassing the starter? as in, the starter motor? What are you going to do, roll start the tractor? What exactly are you thinking of bypassing?

Other than the methods described above, are there any other tips that I could try? I know that people have talked about a starter relay to keep the voltage up at the starter but I don't know if these symptoms indicate that would be helpful. It doesn't seem to hard to install one of those. I also think that the starter contacts can be replaced but I didn't see them listed at Messick's. They have a starter kit listed but it doesn't tell what's in the kit. Maybe that's it? I replaced the brushes in the generator of a 2N so it wouldn't seem replacing the starter contacts in a Kubota would be too difficult.

The purpose of the starer relay is not "to keep the voltage up"...it's a way to allow a low-current circuit to control (aka turn on) another circuit that is capable of handling the high-current requirements of the starter motor.

Randomly replacing parts is not an informed diagnostic process. While any of the things you mentioned might eventually be found as the cause of your problem, you need to follow a diagnostic path that leads you to identifying the problem. At that point you can fix the problem.

Have you spent enough time poringpouring over the wiring diagram from the WSM until you could practically draw the starting circuitry from memory? That's what I would do. Then you can decide where you're going to test for voltage along the signal path, or where you need to disconnect a part and test for continuity. Each test takes time; some are easier than others, each one gives you information and rules in or rules out a problem. You can start at the end and work towards the beginning. Or you can start at the beginning and work towards the end. Or start in the middle.

Unless I am missing something, this should be a relatively easy thing to track down. You have a bunch of switches and connections in series that eventually control the starter relay. Then you have the starter relay. And then you have the start itself. Your job is to devise a diagnostic plan of attack. For example, if you look at the control input to the starter relay and see that it goes to 12Volts when you turn the key to the start position, you've completely ruled out the entire low-current portion of the starting circuit. Conversely, if it stays at 0Volts, you know the problem is in the low-current portion of the starting circuit.

edit: spelling

 

[07wingnut]

What you are probably hearing on the right side is the starter solenoid clicking, but not getting enough voltage to engage the starter. On the left side, the click you hear when turning the key to off, is the fuel solenoid briefly engaging to cut off the fuel, and a few seconds later disengaging, so the tractor can be started next time around. The fuel solenoid must be powered to shut down fuel flow and not powered to let the fuel flow.
Insufficient voltage at the starter solenoid could be for a number of reasons:
1) Bad positive connection to the battery or defective positive cable
2) Bad negative connection to the battery, or poor ground connection to the frame or rarely, a bad ground connection between the starter and the frame.
3) and this I suspect is most likely from reading on this forum and personal experience on my BX23 is poor electrical conductivity thru those pesky safety switches that abound on these things. Rather than trying to track down which switch is wonky, a common solution is to take that wire that activates the starter solenoid and use it to activate a cheap relay, which in turn, takes power directly from the battery thru an in line fuse and applies it to the starter solenoid. That solenoid clicking problem has not reared it's head since I did this 4 years ago.
Somewhere on this forum, there is a good explanation of how to do this, but I have so far been unable to locate it. Best of luck trying to fix this, it can be an extremely annoying problem.

 

[JerryMT]

Foiled again. Everything working on BX23, new hydraulic hoses, etc...now, can't start it! :-( When I attempted to start, the dash lights came on but nothing else. Of course I tried this multiple times and, at times, there would be a single
click on the right side and then after releasing the key and about 10 seconds another click on the left side.

I have been doing some research about how to troubleshoot although I haven't done anything yet. Taking the "bonnet" off with the grill guard there is a task and I wasn't up to it. My plan is to get started on the hunt for the problem on
Monday. I am going to put the multimeter positive lead on the positive post of the starter and the negative lead on
the starter to body to check the voltage. If it's less than 9.5V, starter is bad. I found this info posted by White Tiger somewhere and I know he knows what he's doing.

Next, I'm going to test the safety switches to see if they have continuity. That is, if I can get to them! I know the speed lever has a switch that can be reached when the right side rear tire is removed so we'll see about that.

I've had a bit of a starting problem for a while now but it always finally started. When I turned the key and let the glow plugs do their thing for a few seconds, it would often start. But sometimes, it would do just as it is now...key turned, glow plugs "glowing" for a few seconds but no starter turn over. In the past, I would jiggle the ignition area a bit and it would start. Once it was started, there was never a problem on re-starting if I stopped it while out working.

I had purchased a new ignition a couple of weeks ago, thinking the ignition module may be the problem but I hadn't installed it...until now! I put it in but had the same result so that eliminates that. From this point, I don't want to try to "guess."

I'd like to try to start this by bypassing the starter to get the tractor running but I'm not quite sure how to do that. And, maybe that wouldn't be the best of ideas until I'm desperate.

Other than the methods described above, are there any other tips that I could try? I know that people have talked about a starter relay to keep the voltage up at the starter but I don't know if these symptoms indicate that would be helpful. It doesn't seem to hard to install one of those. I also think that the starter contacts can be replaced but I didn't see them listed at Messick's. They have a starter kit listed but it doesn't tell what's in the kit. Maybe that's it? I replaced the brushes in the generator of a 2N so it wouldn't seem replacing the starter contacts in a Kubota would be too difficult.

Any help would be very much appreciated. The grass will need mowing before long. And, I know we've got geniuses here.

TG

 

[JerryMT]

Check some easy thinks first. Are the battery terminals "bright and tight".? (i.e. clean and tight) Is battery ground connection to the chasis bright and tight?
Bad grounds are common and the ground connections are usually out of sight but they are SOOOOO necessary.

 

[drewzee87t]

In other news....

1. charge the battery and verify that it's charged with your meter
2. safety switches. You will need to locate them, get the obvious twigs and dirt out of the way of them properly working. I don't have your tractor but there will be one at the seat, one that makes sure the PTO is OFF, one to make sure the Mid Mount PTO is OFF, one that makes sure the clutch is pushed in (if you have a clutch) and there's one for the "zero" position on the hydrostat pedal. All those switches have to be working or no starter.

You probably just bumped the mid pto lever. My tractor has a hydro pedal that doesn't always settle at zero and sometimes just wiggle the pedal and she will start. I also have had a problem with the Mid PTO lever switch. I sometimes bump it out of place and it also gets junk jammed in it and stops working. I have had good luck with wiggling the Mid PTO lever to get it started until I get in there to get the twigs and junk out of the way.

Let us know, how it go

 

[old and tired]

My best guess is it's going to be a safety switch. Easy test is to hold the key in the ON position and first to test is the HST pedal, rock it back and forth slowly (all the time holding the ignition key in the ON position. Next would be the seat switch, wiggle around in the seat, bounce up and down. See if you can reach around and manually hold the seat safety switch down.

Next is the PTO safety then the Clutch... all of this takes a few minutes to test out.

 

[D2Cat]

07wingnut has the answer.

" 3) and this I suspect is most likely from reading on this forum and personal experience on my BX23 is poor electrical conductivity thru those pesky safety switches that abound on these things. Rather than trying to track down which switch is wonky, a common solution is to take that wire that activates the starter solenoid and use it to activate a cheap relay, which in turn, takes power directly from the battery thru an in line fuse and applies it to the starter solenoid. That solenoid clicking problem has not reared it's head since I did this 4 years ago.
Somewhere on this forum, there is a good explanation of how to do this, but I have so far been unable to locate it. Best of luck trying to fix this, it can be an extremely annoying problem."

John Deere makes a kit for this purpose. When many of the connections have increased resistance the problem you describe surfaces.

 

[Tractor Gal]

What do you think is causing the clicks and what hypotheses have you formed based on this evidence?


You're going to measure the voltage from the starter positive lead to ground under what condition? Are you going to turn the key? How would a voltage of less than 9.5V indicate that the starter is bad? What if the voltage is 0?




This seems like a pretty important fact pattern. Historical intermittent starting problem, jiggling, then eventual total failure. Could indicate the physical location of the problem. On the other hand, it could be totally spurious...perhaps the operator presence switch (OPS) is bad and the act of jiggling the key while in the seat introduced enough movement to cause the OPS to finally closed.


By "ignition" I assume you mean what the WSM refers to as the "main switch"? What is "the ignition module"?


Bypassing the starter? as in, the starter motor? What are you going to do, roll start the tractor? What exactly are you thinking of bypassing?


The purpose of the starer relay is not "to keep the voltage up"...it's a way to allow a low-current circuit to control (aka turn on) another circuit that is capable of handling the high-current requirements of the starter motor.

Randomly replacing parts is not an informed diagnostic process. While any of the things you mentioned might eventually be found as the cause of your problem, you need to follow a diagnostic path that leads you to identifying the problem. At that point you can fix the problem.

Have you spent enough time poringpouring over the wiring diagram from the WSM until you could practically draw the starting circuitry from memory? That's what I would do. Then you can decide where you're going to test for voltage along the signal path, or where you need to disconnect a part and test for continuity. Each test takes time; some are easier than others, each one gives you information and rules in or rules out a problem. You can start at the end and work towards the beginning. Or you can start at the beginning and work towards the end. Or start in the middle.

Unless I am missing something, this should be a relatively easy thing to track down. You have a bunch of switches and connections in series that eventually control the starter relay. Then you have the starter relay. And then you have the start itself. Your job is to devise a diagnostic plan of attack. For example, if you look at the control input to the starter relay and see that it goes to 12Volts when you turn the key to the start position, you've completely ruled out the entire low-current portion of the starting circuit. Conversely, if it stays at 0Volts, you know the problem is in the low-current portion of the starting circuit.

edit: spelling

ejb11235, I appreciate your efforts to help but you're just repeating what I already said in the original post. At least that's what I am able to glean from your response.

Again, that for trying to help.

TG

 

[Tractor Gal]

In other news....

1. charge the battery and verify that it's charged with your meter
2. safety switches. You will need to locate them, get the obvious twigs and dirt out of the way of them properly working. I don't have your tractor but there will be one at the seat, one that makes sure the PTO is OFF, one to make sure the Mid Mount PTO is OFF, one that makes sure the clutch is pushed in (if you have a clutch) and there's one for the "zero" position on the hydrostat pedal. All those switches have to be working or no starter.

You probably just bumped the mid pto lever. My tractor has a hydro pedal that doesn't always settle at zero and sometimes just wiggle the pedal and she will start. I also have had a problem with the Mid PTO lever switch. I sometimes bump it out of place and it also gets junk jammed in it and stops working. I have had good luck with wiggling the Mid PTO lever to get it started until I get in there to get the twigs and junk out of the way.

Let us know, how it go

Yes, drewz87t, I tested the battery voltage...12.4; also took cables off battery and cleaned/tightened them. I have checked the engine ground cable and it is well connected.

I've also checked the pto lever, speed lever, and hst pedal but nothing changed...doesn't mean there isn't a problem with one of these but initially, nothing found. Speaking of the hst pedal...with the speed lever in neutral, I wouldn't think the hst pedal would have any bearing on anything.

With the clicks, I did suspect it was the starter solenoid and then the fuel solenoid.

I'll keep at it. thanks for the suggestions.

TG

 

[Tractor Gal]

My best guess is it's going to be a safety switch. Easy test is to hold the key in the ON position and first to test is the HST pedal, rock it back and forth slowly (all the time holding the ignition key in the ON position. Next would be the seat switch, wiggle around in the seat, bounce up and down. See if you can reach around and manually hold the seat safety switch down.

Next is the PTO safety then the Clutch... all of this takes a few minutes to test out.

Good ideas, old and tired. I'll try those suggestions tomorrow. I suspect it's the seat switch, but we'll see with further testing. I did put a shallow block of wood on it to make sure it was depressed but it didn't make any difference.

Again...thanks for the tips. They just might do it.

TG

 

[ejb11235]

ejb11235, I appreciate your efforts to help but you're just repeating what I already said in the original post. At least that's what I am able to glean from your response.

Again, that for trying to help.

TG

No worries. I was actually trying to do a lot more, but when I posted I figured that there was a low probability that I would be successful. The other people who have replied to your questions have provided much more immediately practical suggestions.

 

[Tractor Gal]

What you are probably hearing on the right side is the starter solenoid clicking, but not getting enough voltage to engage the starter. On the left side, the click you hear when turning the key to off, is the fuel solenoid briefly engaging to cut off the fuel, and a few seconds later disengaging, so the tractor can be started next time around. The fuel solenoid must be powered to shut down fuel flow and not powered to let the fuel flow.
Insufficient voltage at the starter solenoid could be for a number of reasons:
1) Bad positive connection to the battery or defective positive cable
2) Bad negative connection to the battery, or poor ground connection to the frame or rarely, a bad ground connection between the starter and the frame.
3) and this I suspect is most likely from reading on this forum and personal experience on my BX23 is poor electrical conductivity thru those pesky safety switches that abound on these things. Rather than trying to track down which switch is wonky, a common solution is to take that wire that activates the starter solenoid and use it to activate a cheap relay, which in turn, takes power directly from the battery thru an in line fuse and applies it to the starter solenoid. That solenoid clicking problem has not reared it's head since I did this 4 years ago.
Somewhere on this forum, there is a good explanation of how to do this, but I have so far been unable to locate it. Best of luck trying to fix this, it can be an extremely annoying problem.

Wingnut, you, too, may be on to something. I'm going to test the seat switch first since it's easy, as well as test the hst pedal, but the relay is something that I think may be needed. I have seen a video about installing one of these and it's pretty simple so that would be the next step.

All good info here and I appreciate it.

TG

 

[Tractor Gal]

The battery connections are "bright and tight," for sure. I looked at the engine ground but I didn't take it off to clean it up. I'll also do that tomorrow.

With all this good help, I'm bound to find something! Thanks.

TG

 

[Jim L.]

Some thoughts on troubleshooting.

Switchology on tractor set as normal: such as PTO, seat, gear, neutral, etc.

1) High current circuit.
1a) Battery has been load tested or swapped with known good battery. A new battery may not necessarily be good.

1b) Battery conductors bright and tight at terminals, all ends. Ground point clean and bright. No internal corrosion on conductors. Fusible links good, and high current fuses good.

As mentioned above electrical test is to jump starter and measure the voltage across the starter, a voltage drop showing resistance at some other point. Study up from White Tiger and Dave on how to safely do this. Electrical probes to voltmeter will need alligator clips or tape to hold probes.

2) Low current circuit. Control signal gets to starter.
2a) Main switch. Disconnect and remove from tractor. Ohmmeter for electrical continuity check per switch diagram. Also put key in and wiggle it. From the stated symptoms, this is something to check.

2b) Output of Operator Presence Control to starter. If not working;
2c) safety switches, individually
2d) OPC module
2e) starter relay
2f) wiring harness

3) Starter itself.
On-tractor test per White Tiger and Dave.
Or, bench test per WSM.
In the unlikely event that it is the starter itself, you want the manufacturer and model off of the physical starter. It may be made by Denso. If it is too faded to read, then cross reference by tractor number. Choice is to replace or fix starter. Things like brushes are available and easily replaced. They will be referenced by manufacturer and model number of starter, not by Kubota part number.

My advice is to start with group 1 and document as you go, notes, diagrams, pictures, highlighted schematics, etc. Note that we want to go with three main efforts, and then subdivide from there. Not at random.

Post as needed for info and techniques.

 

[Dieseldonato]

There are a few relays under the dash as well if I recall right. I doubt its your starter thats clicking and not engaging. if you don't have a workshop manual, get one. The location and what needs to do what is all listed in the electrical section for starting. Some of the safety switches are open and some are closed to start.

 

[Tractor Gal]

Some thoughts on troubleshooting.

Switchology on tractor set as normal: such as PTO, seat, gear, neutral, etc.

1) High current circuit.
1a) Battery has been load tested or swapped with known good battery. A new battery may not necessarily be good.

1b) Battery conductors bright and tight at terminals, all ends. Ground point clean and bright. No internal corrosion on conductors. Fusible links good, and high current fuses good.

As mentioned above electrical test is to jump starter and measure the voltage across the starter, a voltage drop showing resistance at some other point. Study up from White Tiger and Dave on how to safely do this. Electrical probes to voltmeter will need alligator clips or tape to hold probes.

2) Low current circuit. Control signal gets to starter.
2a) Main switch. Disconnect and remove from tractor. Ohmmeter for electrical continuity check per switch diagram. Also put key in and wiggle it. From the stated symptoms, this is something to check.

2b) Output of Operator Presence Control to starter. If not working;
2c) safety switches, individually
2d) OPC module
2e) starter relay
2f) wiring harness

3) Starter itself.
On-tractor test per White Tiger and Dave.
Or, bench test per WSM.
In the unlikely event that it is the starter itself, you want the manufacturer and model off of the physical starter. It may be made by Denso. If it is too faded to read, then cross reference by tractor number. Choice is to replace or fix starter. Things like brushes are available and easily replaced. They will be referenced by manufacturer and model number of starter, not by Kubota part number.

My advice is to start with group 1 and document as you go, notes, diagrams, pictures, highlighted schematics, etc. Note that we want to go with three main efforts, and then subdivide from there. Not at random.

Post as needed for info and techniques.

Good info...and it will take time to implement. But...I have more time than money! Looking forward to beginning the hunt for the problem tomorrow.

TG

 

[Tractor Gal]

There are a few relays under the dash as well if I recall right. I doubt its your starter thats clicking and not engaging. if you don't have a workshop manual, get one. The location and what needs to do what is all listed in the electrical section for starting. Some of the safety switches are open and some are closed to start.

I do have a downloaded WSM. Earlier, I had intended to get this printed since it's hard to use it via computer. That'll be another thing to address. Under the dash? Could they make things any hard to access? :-(

Thanks for the tips.

TG

 

[D2Cat]

The low voltage relay kit is "AM 107421". Has $10 worth the parts in it and Deere charges $64. I purchased a couple off of Ebay a couple of years ago for $15 or so from take-offs. It made a world of difference on a TG 1860.

 

[whitetiger]

I suspect it's the seat switch, but we'll see with further testing. I did put a shallow block of wood on it to make sure it was depressed but it didn't make any difference.

The seat switch is not in the engine Crank circuit as the tractor should crank with no one in the seat.