Baffled newb - need help - D1105 runs up to full throttle and wont idle down

[100 td]

you may be slightly ingesting your own lube oil thus no throttle control.

He can stop it with the key or stop rod so he should be right.
I would run it without the speed control plate, but I really shouldn't recommend anyone to do it for safety reasons, don't want it by any chance to over rev while you are playing with it.
I expect NIW or whitetiger or others will chime in with the answers.
So does it ramp up to full revs on full fuel, then cut back fuel, meaning you can hear the engine being governed at say 2800 rpm? Does it have the tacho option? What revs is it getting to? Does it sound like it's over revving?

 

[100 td]

Progression...........
Original owner, said engine wouldn't start after winter
OO took to shop who pulled the injection pump
OO now finds engine runs full throttle only.
New owner removes throttle plate, finds all springs in place, everything moves back and forwards.
NO finds engine runs full revs, and will shut down by key or stop shaft.
NO checks with Kubota service mechs and all springs are in place.
NO has IP rebuilt, they say there was nothing wrong with it.
NO suspects frozen governor.
100 td concurs a possibility, and also thinks idle apparatus could be worth checking, and/or damage to governor/speed control mechanism, as original symptom was "would not start", and problem has arisen since IP has been removed, which appeared to be OK.
(This is if OO has been truly representing the actual way the problems presented.)
OK NIW, whitetiger, others, spit it out!

 

[Flatiron71]

He can stop it with the key or stop rod so he should be right.
I would run it without the speed control plate, but I really shouldn't recommend anyone to do it for safety reasons, don't want it by any chance to over rev while you are playing with it.
I expect NIW or whitetiger or others will chime in with the answers.
So does it ramp up to full revs on full fuel, then cut back fuel, meaning you can hear the engine being governed at say 2800 rpm? Does it have the tacho option? What revs is it getting to? Does it sound like it's over revving?

I've checked the oil - it is dirty but at full capacity so it does not seem like its been sucking it out of the case and i'm able to shut down the engine easily with either the key or the stop lever. I'm not completely ruling it out but it does not seem likely at this point.

100_td - what do you mean by "idle apparatus"? Can you show me a picture?

When it starts up it quickly works its way up to full revs and stays there - it does not seem to govern it other than hitting the hi rev limit stop (i'm assuming). It does not have a tach but i'm guessing rpms to be around 3k and it blows some black smoke with that. When I bring the rpms down with the stop lever the smoke goes away.

I'm getting ready to head to work today but I will post some pictures of the governor assembly inside the case so that you all can verify that my eyes aren't lying to me about the connections of the springs, etc. I will also create a video of me starting up and bringing the rpms down with the stop lever. I have a busy evening too so I might not have the pics and video up until tomorrow.

Thanks for all the replies so far!!

 

[100 td]

I'm just thinking outside the box, the problem most likely arose after the OO pulled the injection pump so I expect a high degree of chance something has gone adrift with that, not knowing exactly what has been done, so something with the governor setup. When I went and had a look at mine I saw the idle set screw and thought it may be a possibility if the OO has played or excessively done something with the governor.
Check the parts listing for the engine to see the idle apparatus adjusting screw/spring.
Your parts are different to mine, here is a description of the idle limit spring on mine.

At Idling
Setting speed control lever (1 1 ) to the idling position
during engine rotation permits the low tension of
governor spring 2 (3), start spring (1) and idle limit spring
(1 2) to balance the centrifugal force of flyweight (7)
without activating high tension governor spring i (2). In
this way, the fuel injection rate can be controlled to
ensure stable idling.
At High Speed Running with Overload
Governor spring i (2) and 2 (3) control the fuel
injection rate. To maintain the required engine speed,
fuel is supplied according to the speed control lever
setting and load by balancing the tension of governor
springs i and 2 with the centrifugal force of flyweight (7).
In addition, idle limit spring (12) provides stable
engine rotation.
Just a note, I haven't worked on these particular kubota governors, and it's been a few years since playing with lister genset governors and others.
Now if it was an electronic controlled 500kW Cummins 1710..........

 

[Flatiron71]

Here are pics of the governor levers and springs behind the throttle plate;

http://www.orangetractortalks.com/forums/album.php?albumid=567&pictureid=3240

http://www.orangetractortalks.com/forums/album.php?albumid=567&pictureid=3241


Here's a video of the engine running;

https://youtu.be/stDPd_UAOrE

(sorry of it shows sideways - I dont have the s/w on my shop computer to rotate it 90°)

 

[Flatiron71]

Here is another video of it running at full throttle;

https://youtu.be/XKk8bILBxQ8

 

[100 td]

It might be the angle of the shot but in pic 3240 it appears that the rack pin is not in the slot?

 

[100 td]

Just looked at the second video, over revving/over fueling AFAIC.

 

[whitetiger]

With the electric shut off solenoid removed and throttle at Idle, insert a punch thru the opening for the solenoid. See if the linkage pushes in freely in and that the Idle spring returns it as punch is withdrawn.

In your pictures I can't see if the pin in the linkage on injection pump is in the slot on the control lever.

 

[Flatiron71]

Here's a pic showing the rack pin;

http://www.orangetractortalks.com/forums/album.php?albumid=567&pictureid=3243

 

[whitetiger]

Much better pic, did you try using a punch to move the linkage?

 

[Flatiron71]

Much better pic, did you try using a punch to move the linkage?

Here's a vid with the stop solenoid removed and engine running. It still seems like the governor system is not bringing the engine back to an idle - it wants to build in rpms if I let it go. It does not build nearly as fast this way because the springs are removed though.

https://youtu.be/aHVDkMVSXHg

 

[whitetiger]

I am asking how freely does the arm and rack move by checking t with a punch.

 

[Flatiron71]

I am asking how freely does the arm and rack move by checking t with a punch.

It moves freely both directions while engine is running or not.

 

[Flatiron71]

I am asking how freely does the arm and rack move by checking t with a punch.

Sorry - to answer your question more specifically - without the engine running I can push in on the rack slide - it pushes against the idle spring (at the opposite end of the rack slide) and returns back when I release it to what I assume is the idle position. I have not tried this with the engine running. I will try that now.

 

[Flatiron71]

With the electric shut off solenoid removed and throttle at Idle, insert a punch thru the opening for the solenoid. See if the linkage pushes in freely in and that the Idle spring returns it as punch is withdrawn.

Here's another vid with me working the rack back and forth more specifically like you described above;

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pq_PaL1fOqw

I also noticed that the adjustment screw on the Floating Lever is adjusted way out from what the WSM picture shows. I'm wondering if that was done by the shop that originally tried to fix this.

I tried to screw it back in and was able to get 1 turn out of it but it seems really tight. Is that supposed to be a tight machine fit or is there something else like a set screw or something holding it in place? Its hard to get a good bite on it because the angle I have the flathead screwdriver to get to it.

If you look at this pic - http://www.orangetractortalks.com/forums/album.php?albumid=567&pictureid=3243 just to the left of the red arrow you'll see the screw sticking out of the floating arm about 1/4". The pictures in the WSM show that screw face almost flush with the surface of the floating arm. Me thinks this could be the problem.

I have to run to a B-Day party for my niece so this will have TBC later.....

 

[Flatiron71]

So I adjusted the screw on the float lever on the governor and it changed nothing. I don't know what to think now. It seems like the large throttle spring overpowers the flyweights of the governor shaft and just pulls the rack up to full throttle because when I run it w/o the springs attached it seems to run much more normal.

 

[BAP]

Sounds like something is put together wrong. From your videos it definitely looks like it is over fueling, not just over revving.

 

[Flatiron71]

So here's an update for anyone that is interested;

I pulled the front cover off the engine and removed the governor shaft and just as I suspected it was broken - the 2 fingers on the end of it had been sheared off and the thing was flopping around a bit in its housing. There is a roller bearing in the back where the fingers are and up at the front is a solid bearing / babbitt setup where the gear is. The babbitt has been beat up a bit and will need to be replaced along with the shaft but I believe the block is ok.
The fingers on the back of the shaft run the hydraulic pump on this particular Kubota mower.
Now the big question is what caused these fingers to get broken in the first place? I thought I'd try spinning the hydraulic pump itself before putting anything back together to see what happened. I put my cordless drill to it which spins at about 600rpm. At first it spins up full speed no problem but after a few seconds it starts to build pressure and slow down to a crawl. I switched the drill to the low range setting to give it more torque and it essentially did the same thing - spins up full speed at first then slows down to a crawl. I dont have any experience with hydrostatics or hydraulics like this. Does this reaction from the pump sound normal or is this an indication of a problem that lead to the broken shaft?? If I have a pump or hydraulic problem here I want to fix it before firing up this engine again with a new shaft, etc.
Any wisdom would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Flatiron71]

Pics of the broken shaft