B7100 with loader stability issue

[Whit]

I have recently picked up a B7100 HST with an aftermarket loader that has a 4 in 1 bucket. The idea being this new to me B7100 with loader would replace my existing B7100 HST with mid mount mower. The B7100 with loader needs a new thrust bearing and maybe clutch and it has half the hours of my B7100 with no loader. However the B7100 with loader is so unstable compared to non loader B7100. Even driving on the level ground and rear tyre goes into a dip feels unstable even with a flail mower on. There is also a bit of a bounce and hop when lifting and lowering the 3 point.

This instability became even more noticeable when I bought a 3 point finish mower. The idea with the finish mower is that I need to mow beside a concrete driveway that is on a slope (Mostly up and down). With a slasher or flail mower you constantly have to keep adjusting the 3 point hitch height as not to scrap the concrete, with the finish mower it runs on its own wheels and floats, so ideal for going over concrete and gravel etc. The B7100 with mid mower also works well for this and because the weight of the MMM is so slow it feels super stable. The B7100 with no loader also feels more stable with the flail mower or rotary slasher on than the B7100 with the loader.

The only other way I can think of mowing the concrete driveway is adding some blocks of timber to the bottom of the rotary slasher and the flail mower and try that out. Has anyone god any idea if this would work? Or another option?

The B7100 with the loader steering is really heavy compared to b7100 with no loader. So it seems there is too much wight on the front axels too.

Now the problem I think with the finish mower, is because it sits on it' own wheels, there is no weight on the rear wheels of the tractor and with the loader on it all the weight is at the front wheels? This would be somewhat the same with a rotary slasher mower and flail mower when they are running on the ground in float?
The other think I noticed was even on the slightest side hill the rear end wants to slide down, I am guessing this is because the finish mower is so far back acting like a lever?

The loader is not a quick attach or anything so not easy to taken off.

What can I do to make it more stable? and how can I best add weight to the tractor to make it more stable while using the finish mower or any mower? Wheel weights? fluid in tyres? My understanding is fluid in wheels wheels won't remove weight from the front wheels like 3 point hitch weight does but it will help with traction and roll over stability?

I have just ordered some Ag tyres for the turf rims as per previous pots from other members of this forum.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

That bucket is causing you nothing but pains, it's way too heavy for that loader and that tractor.

You could load the rear tires, you could put a weights on the rims.
But none of that is going to outdo that bucket.
Most of those model (size) loaders have a very light bucket on them.

 

[85Hokie]

I see you have the rear rims pulled out all the way - that was my first suggestion.

Those machines are really bullet proof - but you have a lot of weight to deal with.

 

[ve9aa]

I see you have the rear rims pulled out all the way - that was my first suggestion.

Those machines are really bullet proof - but you have a lot of weight to deal with.

I am not a tractor expert - not at all....but even the FEL arms look to be intended for a much bigger tractor.

 

[mikester]

Squishy turf tires will put a lot of strain on your tractor components with that loader. Consider something like 8 or 10 ply R4's and your tractor will roll and operate a lot better.

 

[NCL4701]

You have a lot of factors that apparently all combine to subpar stability.

The most obvious is the 4 in 1 bucket. Those things are great, but their one downside is they're heavy. If I recall correctly, the OEM loader on that model was rated somewhere around 550 lb at the pins to full height. I know that's not the OEM loader but the OEM rating gives some indication how much loader the tractor can handle so IMO it's still instructive here. I suspect that bucket is taking up a good chunk of that.

The other obvious thing is run with the loader as low as practical. I know that sounds almost insulting, but some new operators run the bucket high so they can see better and it raises the machine's center of gravity. Keep the bucket low to keep the center of gravity low.

Squishy tires. Make sure they're running the air pressure they're supposed to be running, particularly the front. You should be able to see if the sidewalls are flexing a lot. A stiff as a board R4 is going to be more stable that a turf.

Counterweight. You're doing some of that already. May need to try doing some more. I believe the 3 point is rated for about 400 lb. Don't know what your mowers weigh and obviously that's what is going to be on the 3 point if you're mowing, but if you're not mowing and you can put more weight back there, try it.

Loading tires with liquid ballast. Liquid ballast lowers the machines center of gravity (there's an air pocket at the top of the tire so over half the liquid is below the centerline of the axle) which helps with side to side stability. It also adds weight behind the front axle, which helps with front to back stability. Counterweight mentioned above is arguably better for the front to back stability because it's further away from the pivot point front axle and can transfer weight from the front axle to the rear axle, whereas liquid ballast doesn't do the weight transfer thing. See prior paragraph for that. May need both ballast and counterweight.

Wheel weights. Don't know if they're available or not. If yes, physics about the same as liquid ballast. Compare liquid ballast weight to iron weight if it's an either/or for you. Liquid ballast usually adds much more weight and is usually cheaper. Nothing wrong with iron weights and nothing wrong with using liquid ballast, iron weights, and counterweight all at the same time.

I'd start with the easy stuff first and work through it until you get the stability you need. After checking tire pressure, I'd take the bucket off and run it without the bucket for a bit to see if that fixes it. If it does (and I suspect it might) you'll have to do something to address the too much weight on the front and too little on the back issue without overloading the whole machine. Lighter bucket, ballast tires, wheel weights, counterweight. You may have to mess with it some to get it right.

 

[Dave_eng]

Suggest you read this thread surrounding a B7100 HST clutch issue experienced by forum member Torch
After repeated clutch disk failures, the cause was finally tracked down to bending stresses coming from his loader.
Torch
Your loader looks far to heavy and strong for the way it appears to be attached to your tractor with a lot of pressure being applied near the bell housing for the clutch assembly.
Dave

 

[GreensvilleJay]

It has to be a 'down under' thing, those 4 way buckets.
I always liked them BUT dang they are HEAVY !! Waay too heavy for your tractor.
As others have said, get rid of the bucket.
Poor lil tractor only has maybe 16HP, ? probably using 2/3 of them to haul the bucket around

I know NOT what you wanted to hear....

 

[Whit]

Thanks for all the comments. I am hoping I can improve the stability of the tractor with he loader as it is so handy, if not I will have to sell it as my property is pretty much all hills.

I did some testing yesterday, first thing I did was check the tyre pressures. The front left was 6ps and front right was 20 psi. Funny they didn't look low. I pumped them up to 35psi. The rears were both 14ps so I let them down to 10psi as per the manual. This made a good improvement in stability however still a ways to go.

The other thing I did was with the tractor off on flat ground bucket a few inches in the air. standing next to the tractor pushing the ROPS side to side. When the finish mower was up it is a lot more stable at the rear end vs when the finish mower is down on the ground (because the finish mower's weight is no longer on the 3 point/tractor) Does anyone know if adding wheel weights and or fluid in the rears will make the tractor more stable when the mower is on the ground? Or how do you add weight to the rear of tractor with a 3 point attachment mower/slasher/rotary cutter that runs on the ground.

I am also going to see if stability improves if I take the bucket off the loader.

 

[Whit]

Suggest you read this thread surrounding a B7100 HST clutch issue experienced by forum member Torch
After repeated clutch disk failures, the cause was finally tracked down to bending stresses coming from his loader.
Torch
Your loader looks far to heavy and strong for the way it appears to be attached to your tractor with a lot of pressure being applied near the bell housing for the clutch assembly.
Dave

Thanks for sharing, very interesting read. I really hoping it is just the thrust bearing, as everything is working, it just makes a metallic rattling noise when pushing the clutch in. I guess I won't know until I split it. I have posted in this thread about the clutch

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Yes both loading the tires and adding wheel weights will help!
If you could pull the loader off completely, you would be shocked at the stability difference!

 

[Whit]

Yes both loading the tires and adding wheel weights will help!
If you could pull the loader off completely, you would be shocked at the stability difference!

Yeah I know what you mean! I have a B7100 without a loader and it is night and day difference. The idea was to sell the one without the loader but I am not so sure now.

 

[Vigo]

Very cool tractor!

You're right on track about the mower weight not helping stabilize the tractor unless the 3pt is actually holding that weight up.

Using tire fill is the first easiest thing to do to improve your loader counterweighting.

I dont see any problem with using turf tires with the loader. That's what i run and any difference you would get from the stiffer sidewall of an r4 tire would be a marginal effect in my opinion.

Wheel weights would be great if you could figure out how to get or make some.

You can add weight to a 3pt implement right up to the point where the tractor won't lift it. I added ~113lbs to my ~350lb box blade, for example.

You could also buy or build a dedicated 3pt weight box and use something like sand to find the optimum point of max weight but still consistently being able to lift it.

Another thing you might consider for the long term is converting the loader to quick attach and simply operating without the bucket when mowing. Unfortunately with the width spacing of those loader arms and the placement of the 4n1 bucket lid cylinders, you couldn't use the common skid steer quick attach without making things a lot worse by adding weight and sticking the bucket out ~4" further. You could potentially use the mini-skid steer system. In your case if you didn't plan to run a bunch of other front loader attachments I would probably convert your existing setup to something like the John Deere hook and pin quick attach just to add the minimum weight, spacing, and complication.

 

[GreensvilleJay]

What's wrong with keeping them both ?
one dedicated to mowing
one dedicated to loadering