B6000 won't start

[Dave_eng]

would it be safe (for testing) to jumper past the controller?

No because unlike modern glow plugs, the increase in resistance in the dash board visible coil is like a current limiter.

The hotter it gets, the more it inhibits power to the glow plugs so they don't self destruct.

Do you have any packaging that the glow plugs you bought were in so I can do more research knowing the manufacturer and model of the GP's.

Make certain all connections are clean is a wise step with a machine of the age of your B6000.

It would just be the ends of the dash coil that need to be clean and shiny. The coil will clean itself over time with use. Just make certain there is no mouse nests on top of it or you will have a fire.

Dave M7040

 

[Russell King]

The coil will not glow brightly either. I can only see mine at low light conditions (dusk or shaded with hand). Don't expect it to look like a bright light.


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[Dave_eng]

pc.........

I found the B6000 wiring diagram you posted earlier and marked it up to try and explain the Glow Plug power supply.

Power from the battery flows to the main switch. When it is turned on, power is available in the Start switch on terminal #30.

When you turn the start switch to power the glow plugs, the amps come from #30 to #19 to flow through the "controller" or glowing dash indicator. Then the power continues to the glow plugs themselves. Terminal #17 is just used to connect the controller wire to the wire to the glow plugs. Consider it a splice point. The GP's are wired in parallel whereas the controller is in series with the glow plugs.

Assuming a large strong battery, if you connected your multimeter to measure voltage on the terminal of one of the glow plugs, I expect you would see a voltage close to the battery voltage when you turn the start key to the GP position. The voltage then starts dropping as the controller element heats up.

Where did the new glow plugs you installed come from? Can we be absolutely certain they are the right ones?

Dave M7040

 

[pcdreams]

I got the plugs from Messicks. They are Kubota parts (#15231-65512).

I'll get in there and see if anything is dirty. I thought I cleaned it pretty good when I had the switch out (I basically took everything except the light switch out and cleaned it), but it maybe a few days. I have to pull the fuel tank to get access to those components.

 

[D2Cat]

On your schematic is says, "glow plug controller". Other manuals refer to is as a glow plug indicator.

It is a heavy wire resistor and functions similarly to a light bulb element. Power goes through the wire it heats up, you see the orange/red in the glow plug indicator (chrome piece with opening in center) telling you power is going to the glow plugs.

I would loosen the dash so you can get to the wires at the controller/indicator and check voltages before and after with the switch on.

You could run a wire direct from your battery to the glow plug wire closest to the firewall to power them. I would not leave that connection there longer then 10-15 seconds. This will not do anything except tell you the GP's get hot/or not.

You also need to be sure you wires are connected cleanly and snugged to the GP's because they are wired in series. If one wire is not making a good connection the next one can not either.

 

[pcdreams]

Something that kind of bothers me (and maybe this is just not something I'm use to) is that the wire going to the front glow plug is a small (?? 18 gauge) wire but the wire that connects between the two plugs is heavy (it's more like 9 gauge) and very rigid. It's what the manual shows as well. I just thought it kind of odd.

 

[Dave_eng]

Something that kind of bothers me (and maybe this is just not something I'm use to) is that the wire going to the front glow plug is a small (?? 18 gauge) wire but the wire that connects between the two plugs is heavy (it's more like 9 gauge) and very rigid. It's what the manual shows as well. I just thought it kind of odd.

According to the wiring diagram, the wire from the starting switch to the GP's should be red. Is it?

The glow plugs, just like your starter, depend upon a clean solid connection to the engine block to provide a ground path.

If your GP's are not well grounded, you will measure around 12 volts at their terminals. The dash indicator will not glow very brightly as there is not much current flowing.

See below NGK's glow plug installation tips.

Installation and removal of glow plugs.

Observe the following steps during installation:

Removal of a glow plug should take place with the engine at operating temperature, insofar as possible.
Carefully loosen the glow plug.
Remove any encrustations and soiling with compressed air.
Unscrew the old glow plug.
Remove any residue in the area of the glow plug bore - with a reamer, if necessary.
Screw the glow plug in as far as it goes by hand.
Set the torque wrench to the correct tightening torque.
Place the nut of the torque wrench straight onto the tightening nut of the glow plug and tighten it.

Dave M7040

 

[Dave_eng]

pc............

With your multimeter you can measure the current flow to your glow plugs.
An ammeter is just a known resistance with a voltmeter lead on each end of the resistance.

Step 1: disconnect one end of your glow plug indicator/controller wiring and using your multimeter, measure its ohm valve.

Step 2: reconnect the indicator, connect your multimeter to each end of the indicator and turn your start switch to glow plug heating. You will see a voltage measurement.

Step 3: divide the voltage reading by the ohm reading and you get the amps flowing through the glow plugs.

Dave M7040

 

[pcdreams]

OK, sorry it took a few days to get back.

I pulled the dash and checked a few things that were posted here.

Wire is Black w/Red strip from switch to plugs (Which is what I understand the diagram to be showing)

voltage on controller(pin 17 to controller. this is the side that goes from switch to plugs) is 11.5. (Controller to pin 19) is 12.04

Ohms (with wires off) across controller is 0. Voltage across controller is 0.5

I'm a little lost as to doing the amp conversion in that I'm not clear which voltage I'm suppose to be using. In my head it makes sense that it's the voltage from pin 17 to the plugs., but since my ohms is 0... not quite sure how to figure.

I've still got to take the plugs out and clean around them.. but that's for another day.

 

[Dave_eng]

pc...........

I need to study your info further but:

" Ohms (with wires off) across controller is 0."

Perhaps you are not using the correct scale on the multimeter.

0 is what you would read if touching the two multimeter leads together with nothing else in between.

I think the small coil of wire must have some resistance but the value may be small such as 0.05 ohms just to throw out a number.

Dave M7040

 

[pcdreams]

That's possible. I'm relatively new to electronics. I set the meter to the lowest ohms setting (200) but 0 is what it read.

 

[Dave_eng]

PC..............

Forget about my fancy tests. Not really necessary.

If you are lucky, you will find giving the glow plugs a good ground will fix them just like it did for your starter.

Dave M7040

 

[pcdreams]

got out there today and removed the glow plugs. scrubbed around there quite a bit till I hit shiny metal. So I should have a good connection now.

I'm going to need a new one of these though Joint Fuel Pipe 15103-42570

They don't make them anymore. Anyone know of another model that uses these, or saving that.. an idea on a workaround? I already tried JB Weld. Held it for a month or so.

 

[Russell King]

Braze it back together if possible?

A machine shop may be able to bore into the large part to provide a good locating hole and braze joint for the tube part.


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[Dave_eng]

Pc...

Common hydraulic fitting called a Banjo Fitting.

Upon looking at your photo a second time, I now realize that your banjo has two fittings connected to it likely to feed or drain two or more injector lines.

Clean it up very well and I think you will find it is brass. The piece that has pulled out just needs to be re-soldered. The inside of the hole where the pulled out tube needs to be shiny clean and soldering paste needs to be used. Otherwise buying two new single pipe banjo fittings and stack one on top of the other to have the two pipes. A good propane torch like one you would use to solder copper water pipes is all you need. Cleanliness of the pieces and flux are critical and not too much heat. At the right temp., the solder will quickly run around the joint and set. Dont keep heating. A friend with experience in soldering water pipes can easily do it.

Banjo fittings are Often used to make 90 degree turn in hydraulic piping when space is limited.

These Parker ones are intended to be pressure crimped unto hydraulic hose.

http://www.hoseandfittingsetc.com/p...ngs/parker-43-series/43-series-banjo-fittings

This site has a wider range of Banjo fittings.

http://malonespecialtyinc.com/product-category/hydraulic-tube-fittings/banjo-fittings-bolts/

The important aspect for the banjo fitting to work well is not to reuse the copper washers on the top and bottom of the banjo unless you anneal the copper washers to soften them.

Go to local hydraulic place and they will have them in several sizes.

Dave M7040

 

[pcdreams]

it does feed the injectors. The one on the end has a single that runs to this one, and the other side is a return to the tank. I'll see if I can find someone to solder it. Bolt/space won't allow for stacking.

 

[Dave_eng]

pc.............

From what you are describing, this set of banjos are drains for any internal leakage from the injectors to get back to the fuel tank. They are running at next to zero pressure.

The high pressure lines to the injectors are steel tubes like brake lines on cars. As long as you have a drain from each injector to the tank, all will be OK. For example, instead of joining two drain lines like your two inlet banjo does, you eliminate it and use the single inlet fitting and join the two rubber drain lines with a Tee somewhere else on their way back to the tank. Kubota did it with the twin fitting just to make the engine packaging small and neat,

Dave M

 

[pcdreams]

That sounds better (and cheaper). Trip to Lowes

 

[pcdreams]

Well folks, I got the glow plug area all cleaned up and still no joy. After calling 3 dealers (with a part number) I finally had to send a picture. Long story short, neither local shop got the right part so I ended up ordering it from Messick's.

The local hydraulic shop is going to braze that banjo fitting when I take my hoses in for replacement. Seem like I'm well on the way.

 

[pcdreams]

Progress!! Got it running/starting. It indeed was the glow plug controller.

Next project is Hydraulics, but I'll start a new thread for that