B2150 no start problem?

[Gern Blanston]

Hello forum....long time lurker, first time poster...

I have a 1996 B2150. Ran great a week later it wouldn't start. I have learned a lot trying to get it started.
This was my dad's tractor, and after he passed, all of the history of this tractor went with him.

So, engine cranks, puffs of exhaust come out the exhaust.

I have the WSM, and started with the easiest and least expensive replacement of parts. All parts appear to be original.

- Checked for evidence of critters chewing wires, hoses, etc... none
- Made sure safety switch is electrically good and operating properly. (clutch pedals)
- This tractor does not have the safety switch under the seat
- Implements are down, PTO in neutral
- Replaced glow plugs. Verified getting voltage, I believe they should be getting 9-10V?
- When cranking, battery voltage drops significantly...to about 10V. Is this normal? The battery does show 13+ V when charged. I know a battery can show a full charge, but still be weak in the cranking department. Battery is about 3 years old
- Timer relay, checked by a senior electrical engineer, appeared to be sketchy. Replaced.
- I am putting in a new ignition switch because mine is OEM, loose, and seems to be a bit jumpy on actuating the fuel shut off solenoid, but GP gets power, starter has no problem spinning.
- Fuel shutoff solenoid operating properly
- Fuel filter is new, replaced a few of months ago. No sediment or clogs.
- Fuel tank is 1/3 full with fresh quality fuel.
- Fuel lines are bled per the WSM, fuel does flow out of the bleeder lines when opened. Jet cock not open.
- All lights on the EZ-checker instrument panel operate properly.

Next up, compression check. Compression gauge adapter is on the way. Recommendation for a source for a budget 600+PSI compression gauge would be much appreciated!
- Engine just will not 'catch' when cranking

Pulled off the valve cover and...

Does that amount of exhaust appear normal?

I also need to check fuel pressure, any tips on how to do this and what I should be seeing would also be greatly appreciated.

Thank you all!

Gern

 

[TheOldHokie]

Hello forum....long time lurker, first time poster...

I have a 1996 B2150. Ran great a week later it wouldn't start. I have learned a lot trying to get it started.
This was my dad's tractor, and after he passed, all of the history of this tractor went with him.

So, engine cranks, puffs of exhaust come out the exhaust.

I have the WSM, and started with the easiest and least expensive replacement of parts. All parts appear to be original.

- Checked for evidence of critters chewing wires, hoses, etc... none
- Made sure safety switch is electrically good and operating properly. (clutch pedals)
- This tractor does not have the safety switch under the seat
- Implements are down, PTO in neutral
- Replaced glow plugs. Verified getting voltage, I believe they should be getting 9-10V?
- When cranking, battery voltage drops significantly...to about 10V. Is this normal? The battery does show 13+ V when charged. I know a battery can show a full charge, but still be weak in the cranking department. Battery is about 3 years old
- Timer relay, checked by a senior electrical engineer, appeared to be sketchy. Replaced.
- I am putting in a new ignition switch because mine is OEM, loose, and seems to be a bit jumpy on actuating the fuel shut off solenoid, but GP gets power, starter has no problem spinning.
- Fuel shutoff solenoid operating properly
- Fuel filter is new, replaced a few of months ago. No sediment or clogs.
- Fuel tank is 1/3 full with fresh quality fuel.
- Fuel lines are bled per the WSM, fuel does flow out of the bleeder lines when opened. Jet cock not open.
- All lights on the EZ-checker instrument panel operate properly.

Next up, compression check. Compression gauge adapter is on the way. Recommendation for a source for a budget 600+PSI compression gauge would be much appreciated!
- Engine just will not 'catch' when cranking

Pulled off the valve cover and...

Does that amount of exhaust appear normal?

I also need to check fuel pressure, any tips on how to do this and what I should be seeing would also be greatly appreciated.

Thank you all!

Gern

I dont know that tractor at all but cranking speed seems slow. You seem to be getting fuel. Have you tried giving the battery some help with booster cables?

Dan

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Ok let me tell you one thing right off the bat... Your way over thinking / diagnosing this.
It cranks, and gets power to the glow plugs so electrically its fine.
Yes that's a bit of blow by but if compression is up then it will be fine.

You said it ran a week ago now it doesn't well everything your checking wouldn't just go belly up in a week.

One thing I noticed right off from the video is that you have not cracked the fuel injection lines at the injectors, so how do you know it's getting fuel to the injectors?
And please put the valve cover back on and get out of it.

Has the manual fuel stop lever under the dash been inadvertently pulled?

You can get a compression tester at Harbor Freight or Amazon, / eBay, but compression doesn't go south overnight, its a fuel delivery issue.

The fuel stop solenoid only should engage for ~5 seconds when the key is turned off.
so if it's engaging while cranking disconnect the wire going to it and we can trouble shoot that after you get it to run.

 

[85Hokie]

Sounds and looks as if you have tremendous blowby - so much that the fuel/air cannot be compressed enough to fire.

If when you get you compression tester .......... that will tell the story.

ARE you glowing the plugs for 10-15 seconds?

 

[Gern Blanston]

Ok let me tell you one thing right off the bat... Your way over thinking / diagnosing this.
It cranks, and gets power to the glow plugs so electrically its fine.
Yes that's a bit of blow by but if compression is up then it will be fine.

You said it ran a week ago now it doesn't well everything your checking wouldn't just go belly up in a week. My thoughts as well!

One thing I noticed right off from the video is that you have not cracked the fuel injection lines at the injectors, so how do you know it's getting fuel to the injectors? Will be doing the fuel injector crack test today.
And please put the valve cover back on and get out of it. More than happy to do this!

Has the manual fuel stop lever under the dash been inadvertently pulled? This has been verified to be functioning properly.

You can get a compression tester at Harbor Freight or Amazon, / eBay, but compression doesn't go south overnight, its a fuel delivery issue. I will check out these sources

The fuel stop solenoid only should engage for ~5 seconds when the key is turned off.
so if it's engaging while cranking disconnect the wire going to it and we can trouble shoot that after you get it to run. Lever moves away from the STOP position (marked on engine casting) when turning the key to Glow, cranking, moves back to I did try disconnecting the solenoid, and cranking with the arm retracted and extended. No joy.

A couple of details I forgot:
- The fusible link was melted and replaced. (first item replaced)
- All fuses verified to be functional

Key off Key on and cranking:
North Idaho Wolfman...thank you for you quick reply...I'm jealous of your location, I visited Sandpoint a year ago, and fell in love with ID. maybe someday I'll escape where I am...

 

[Gern Blanston]

Sounds and looks as if you have tremendous blowby - so much that the fuel/air cannot be compressed enough to fire.

If when you get you compression tester .......... that will tell the story.

ARE you glowing the plugs for 10-15 seconds?

Yeah...mentally preparing for this...a couple more things to verify, such as fuel pressure.

Tools needed for this are on the way.

Yes, for the duration the timer relay will allow.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Go to the injectors and crack the lines at the injectors and see if your getting fuel there.

 

[Gern Blanston]

Go to the injectors and crack the lines at the injectors and see if your getting fuel there.

Yep, top of the list for today.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Yeah...mentally preparing for this...a couple more things to verify, such as fuel pressure.

Tools needed for this are on the way.

Yes, for the duration the timer relay will allow.

Don't put your replies inside of quotes, it makes it impossible for the next reply to work.

There is NO timer controlling the Glow plugs it's all manual.
The only timer is for shut down.
You need to turn the key backwards to pre heat the glow plugs before cranking.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

You also do not need to check pressure of the fuel system, it either works or it doesn't.
Cracking the lines at the injectors and getting clean bubble free diesel is key to it starting and running.

 

[Gern Blanston]

Don't put your replies inside of quotes, it makes it impossible for the next reply to work.

There is NO timer controlling the Glow plugs it's all manual.
The only timer is for shut down.
You need to turn the key backwards to pre heat the glow plugs before cranking.

Ahhh...Good to know, both replying and about the timer relay. Yes glow is the third position in the switch, and I typically hold it there 15 seconds, longer if it's colder.

 

[Gern Blanston]

You also do not need to check pressure of the fuel system, it either works or it doesn't.
Cracking the lines at the injectors and getting clean bubble free diesel is key to it starting and running.

NICE. If I am getting the bubble-free diesel...how do I check the injectors? Although, sort of like you said in the beginning...they wouldn't all clog up at once....

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

NICE. If I am getting the bubble-free diesel...how do I check the injectors? Although, sort of like you said in the beginning...they wouldn't all clog up at once....

Yes if it ran a week ago, the most likely candidate is that you have trapped air in the injector lines and they are not popping.

Fuel filters clog, lift pumps fail, but Injection pumps and injectors don't normally just fail.

 

[Gern Blanston]

I dont know that tractor at all but cranking speed seems slow. You seem to be getting fuel. Have you tried giving the battery some help with booster cables?

Dan

I agree with you, it does seem slow

I dont know that tractor at all but cranking speed seems slow. You seem to be getting fuel. Have you tried giving the battery some help with booster cables?

Dan

Hi OldHokie...it does seem slow, but yes I did hook up a jumper battery/vehicle. I still may have to replace the battery...

 

[Russell King]

I don’t think I saw any mention of the air filter. You may want to check that there is nothing in the air intake or the filter itself.

Does the tractor have any decompression knob of any sort? it could be used during startup to get engine spinning faster and also makes bleeding much faster and is easier on the starter. Don’t overheat the starter during bleeding process. Let it cool off for long periods of time when you can.

 

[PaulL]

You could use booster cables to eliminate weak battery as a cause, and tow start (if it's not HST) to eliminate aged starter as a cause.

Seems to me it's either not cranking fast enough, or it's not getting fuel as NIW says. NIW is usually right, so start with his ideas.

 

[Gern Blanston]

I don’t think I saw any mention of the air filter. You may want to check that there is nothing in the air intake or the filter itself.

Does the tractor have any decompression knob of any sort? it could be used during startup to get engine spinning faster and also makes bleeding much faster and is easier on the starter. Don’t overheat the starter during bleeding process. Let it cool off for long periods of time when you can.

Hello Russell King,

Air filter is in good shape, no critters or leaves etc.
No decompression knob that I've ever seen.
Just discovered new surprises...

 

[Gern Blanston]

Yes if it ran a week ago, the most likely candidate is that you have trapped air in the injector lines and they are not popping.

Fuel filters clog, lift pumps fail, but Injection pumps and injectors don't normally just fail.

Today's discoveries...

While bleeding the lines to the injectors as advised...three lines bled out a little air, was getting excited, then...one line was loose at the pump end. Removed the loose fitting and the o-ring is cracked/broken. Might as well replace all 4, and the copper washer as well. (one-time use parts)

I am open to any advice for things to check before re-assembly, tips and tricks. Torque value for the delivery valve holder, Item 1?

Thanks to all in advance!

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

I've never found a listed torque valve for the delivery valve holders.
Really you're supposed to have them rebuilt when you have issues like you are.

I just go snug and a little more.

 

[Gern Blanston]

Good day Forum,

B2150...do these fuel flows look appropriate for starting? (if they were connected, of course!)

lift pump, injection pump

Thank you