Are we experiencing the death of the Diesel engine (small non commercial diesels)

MapleLeafFarmer

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What do OTT experts think??

So sitting around the morning coffee shop table, our group consists of retired and semi retired farmers and commercial farm business owners/operators/employees. Combined we joke that soon we could have 1,000 years of farming experience between us. Enough of us are hoping to live long enough to achieve this milestone. I think we will make it.

Today's conversation was about buying small diesels. Hands down a decade or two ago we would all agree we would have bought diesel powered zero turn mowers, UTV's, sub compact and compact tractors etc.... As well as powering our woodlots and small gravel pits with diesels.

Today though we are very mixed with most saying no to smaller hp diesels. Combines, wheel loaders, highway tractors, rock crushers, etc... 100% diesel as advantages are clear.

What we were arguing about were the smaller ones that say get less than 200 - 500 hours use per year (less than a days use per week). The very low use stuff like a lot of BX's and B's Kubota sells

Why the death of the diesel for low use stuff around our farms versus say choosing gas options?
- the need for very specialized computerized software for re-sets, diagnostics, etc..
- the ever increasing extra cost to buy
- gas doesn't have dpf/regen/def concerns
- the increasing need to call out the dealership tech's for stuff we would have historically done ourselves.
- the risk of the greater use of computer components and their failing and trouble getting such specialized parts in the future and diagnostic
- the ever increasing complicated diagnostic / trouble shooting techniques and tools required
- diesel being priced > gas in a lot of cases
- etc....
the list was very long.

now don't get me wrong we are all BIG fans of diesels and burn thousands of gallons annually but where our go to would always be diesels for say zero turn mowers, our utility sxs's, our small tractors to muck out stalls, clear driveways, etc.... motors on equipment say under 50hp, our collective belief going forward this is likely not going to be the case unless we are putting on 1,000 hours annually.

For low use, gas engines getting to be attractive again.

Kubota makes many many commercial gas engines. Here is a pic of their 75hp gas engine one of our guys considering for his log processor. Yanmar also has many gas options.

So what say you about the choice of diesel being better for non commercial / smaller hp uses?

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jimh406

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I don't think so. I have a gasoline lawn tractor because they are cheap. I have a gasoline UTV because the diesels are really slow.

I don't have a speed issue with my tractor though. I might have bought a gasoline one if that was an option.
 
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GrassLakeRon

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I may be preaching to the choir but, the difference in gas vs diesel is massive in a small engine. Torque to start with. My 20hp Kohler in my simplicity legacy could not do what my 19.5hp d950 in my b8200 does, not even close. My 26hp Kohler in my other pos grass cutter could either. Small diesel is also more fuel efficient. 2 gallons of gas compared to 1/3 gallon of diesel. The question is what happens after 2047?
 
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North Idaho Wolfman

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Any engine that is in a class that needs emissions equipment (over 25HP) will not be easily replaced by a gasoline engine.

Also Gasoline engines are just as complicated with add ons and electronic controls as a diesel so I don't think that's a factor.

Sorry you old farmers, And bless you, but it's progress like it or not it's going to happen!
 
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Scm

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My opinion is: They, don't want us having diesel engines because we can make diesel easily.

"At 40 plus acres of sunflowers, flax, mustard, and canola John averages 75 gallons of biodiesel per acre."


 

GrassLakeRon

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I bet the conversation started around John Deere and their service by technical staff only. I know a farmer who got rid of all his green and switched to case. Millions of dollars of equipment. His brother now has a case and picked up a second Oliver......ya Oliver. I could have bought new, I went for old school. I run it 60 hours a year. That's means in 75 years I might need something else.....:ROFLMAO:
 
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The Evil Twin

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The work (torque) per dollar is much better with diesel. Despite the EPA trying to make diesel power less appealing, it is the better choice.
 
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MapleLeafFarmer

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I bet the conversation started around John Deere and their service by technical staff only. I know a farmer who got rid of all his green and switched to case. Millions of dollars of equipment. His brother now has a case and picked up a second Oliver......ya Oliver. I could have bought new, I went for old school. I run it 60 hours a year. That's means in 75 years I might need something else.....:ROFLMAO:
Your right that one of the guys is true blue Greener.... he is from a nearby Colony and they run 3 (yes 3) JD X9 1100's and even with a buyers discount of 3 units at a time with a header its costing them almost $1.5 million each!! diesel for sure for torque, fuel saving, longevity etc.... Uptime is critical.

my starting this thread is targeted at the very infrequent user of say less than 250 hrs per year. The infrequent but passionate B's or BX's owners and how longevity - torque argument plays out in the mind versus cost of buying / cost and ease of maintenance (or lack thereof) / need for proprietary software to make repairs / etc... that the little diesels still need.

Our daily coffee mornings are fantastic. We cover wide range of stuff. The diesel / gas discussion was very somber as gosh managing our equipment is no where near as easy / inexpensive as it used to be. Just changing a ruddy fan on a BX diesel is way harder than it should be. The pain in the arse factor on the little stuff can be more painful than the bigger stuff for sure.

cheers

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GrassLakeRon

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I run less then 60 hrs per year. I used to be a gas person on my equipment. Now my equipment is a diesel tractor and all electric equipment. My trimmers and such run better with zero problems compared to gas. My tractor is nothing less then amazing in my application. Snow was a problem, optimum word WAS. Now my driveway, my neighbors driveways and road,about quarter mile in 20 minutes. I took over an hour with a gas powered tractor. The idea of higher costs is true of everything. My last gas tractor went up $500 a year and came with less stuff, cheaper transaxle, cheaper everything. I love steal tractors. Not much plastic on my b8200. In all honesty the plastic fantastic tractors just don't do it for me. If I could find a deck to pull behind an Allis Chalmers 180 I would.
 
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GreensvilleJay

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re: Just changing a ruddy fan on a BX diesel is way harder than it should be. That was by design by bean counters NOT 'as requested by users'. Have a kid with 3D printer design/print a 2 piece fan that 'wraps' around the shaft, 10 minute job. It'd take me longer to crawl under and out than do the upgrade.

as far as 'computers' go, every 'fault' should pinpoint the problem ( fuel injector #3,bad ) type reporting on display OR a 'connected' laptop. EASY to do, same as replacing injectors should not have to go to dealer.

gas vs diesel ? I spend more on diesel for my BX23S than I do gas for my F150. If you want torque, go long stroke, speed ? more RPMs.
 

Sidekick

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Why compare only gas and diesel. Electric is starting to be the way to go for low hp / use items. A couple solar panels and no more fuel cost. No oil changes, problems from sitting like old fuel issues or emissions. Instant torque and no belts and gears for mower decks. I think Electric tractor sales will overtake the under 40hp machines in the not to distant future.
 
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mcmxi

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Why compare only gas and diesel. Electric is starting to be the way to go for low hp / use items. A couple solar panels and no more fuel cost. No oil changes, problems from sitting like old fuel issues or emissions. Instant torque and no belts and gears for mower decks. I think Electric tractor sales will overtake the under 40hp machines in the not to distant future.
Solectrac didn't have much success in this market.

 
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RCW

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Why compare only gas and diesel. Electric is starting to be the way to go for low hp / use items. A couple solar panels and no more fuel cost. No oil changes, problems from sitting like old fuel issues or emissions. Instant torque and no belts and gears for mower decks. I think Electric tractor sales will overtake the under 40hp machines in the not to distant future.
I just recently read this thread, and agree with @Sidekick.

There seems to be so much effort put into electrifying consumer products of lower HP.

I’ve wondered if the diesel could be safe, but we may see less gasoline options and more electric options?
 
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rc51stierhoff

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Your right that one of the guys is true blue Greener.... he is from a nearby Colony and they run 3 (yes 3) JD X9 1100's and even with a buyers discount of 3 units at a time with a header its costing them almost $1.5 million each!! diesel for sure for torque, fuel saving, longevity etc.... Uptime is critical.

my starting this thread is targeted at the very infrequent user of say less than 250 hrs per year. The infrequent but passionate B's or BX's owners and how longevity - torque argument plays out in the mind versus cost of buying / cost and ease of maintenance (or lack thereof) / need for proprietary software to make repairs / etc... that the little diesels still need.

Our daily coffee mornings are fantastic. We cover wide range of stuff. The diesel / gas discussion was very somber as gosh managing our equipment is no where near as easy / inexpensive as it used to be. Just changing a ruddy fan on a BX diesel is way harder than it should be. The pain in the arse factor on the little stuff can be more painful than the bigger stuff for sure.

cheers

View attachment 147166
Kenny Chesney was right about that!😉
 

skeets

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I was very anti diesel for a long time, and when my yellow tractor went tits up, I got a good deal on my BX, and brother I never looked back, What took 5 gallons of gas to do now takes less the 2. ANd that little BX will do things those yellow ones could only dream of. Once upon a time diesel was hard to find not any more and even though it does cost more than gas, if you factor in the use per gallon say just mowing, the cost saving on fuel is pretty good. Now big tractor thats a different story, they made some pretty impressive gas tractors on the old days. Though I do think the fuel cost savings is really good on one that runs 600 hours or more a year, torque, longevity, and durability , I think out weigh a gas motor. And not to get political, all the stuff they put on the big tractors ( over 26 hp) was politically driven, just MHO. And big green saw a chance to make beaucoup bucks, and it back fired I think
 
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jimh406

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I don't think electric off-road vehicles have worked out well so far. It's the same problem as towing. They don't have very good range, and it takes too long to recharge.
 
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Sidekick

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Solectrac didn't have much success in this market.

They will be back. https://www.prnewswire.com/news-rel...-us-ev-tractor-maker-solectrac-301311207.html
Technology has come a long way in the last 10 years and people are starting to accept running OPE and Small equipment on batteries as the normal for low maintenance. I think they will be back and this time grab a big share of the market. I see small electric excavators starting to pop up now and if it wasn't so expensive I would have bought that Stihl electric commercial zero turn instead of my Kubota. It was soo quiet and peaceful to drive. Next generation batteries will get the prices down.
 
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Henro

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I love hypotheticals, but (for me, I certainly don't hope to expire before them) my tractors hopefully will be good for another 40 years. I hope to out live them...but not counting on it...two of the best purchases I have made in life...of course, I always told the better half she bought me...LOL
 

The Evil Twin

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I see enough people here using tractors un environments that are not suitable for EV drivetrains- cold weather. I also see many folks here with 20+ year old tractors. EV batteries would need to be swapped by then. That's a lot if coin for a 20 year old machine.
 
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Runs With Scissors

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My personal opinion regarding "small engine choices" it is not really about what "We the people" want as much as it is what ".GOV" shoves down our collective throats,.......through regulations and taxes.

And since I no longer believe that we live in a "free market" , these companies have a vested interest in making things so that we can't work on or modify them.

Money = Power, so ALWAYS follow the money......

(I also do not believe in Santa, the Tooth Fairy, Unicorns, nor "Politicians that have Our best interest's in mind" ......but that is a topic for another thread.....just sayin ;) )
 
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