Any Wizards of Smarts...besides Wolfman, of course ;-)

OlTrailDog

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L345DT w/ loader backhoe
Dec 4, 2014
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Bozeman, MT
Here is where I currently am at on my L345DT TLB project. Symptoms: tractor is difficult to start at temps below 40F even with multiple extended glowplug activation (replaced all glowplugs) and an oil pan heater (the hose heater didn't work even though a multimeter indicated its should. However, when I got it out of the tractor it worked and I now suspect the previous owner had a 100% antifreeze solution). A dry compression test gave results running between 290-300 per cylinder. a wet compression test gave the same results. a leak down test averaged around 70% with most of the escaping air evident in the air intake and the exhaust.

When starting there is abundant black and white smoke until it fires up. After it starts there is NO noticable smoke out the exhaust and NO noticeable blow by at the oil fill port. My attempt to build a homemade blowby manometer according to internet instructions was unsuccessful, so I abandoned the project and moved on.

When I test drove the tractor (1300 hours) the previous owner had me kill it with the compression test. Operator manuals, as well as the decal below the decomp knob, say DON"T kill the engine with the decomp knob except for runaways or you are likely to damage the exhaust valves. I called the previous owner and he said for the year he owned the tractor he always killed it with the decomp knob.

Therefore, I decided to pull the head after requesting that my wife pray that it is the valves and not rings, please, purty please. Attached are some piss poor pictures (620x230? whose bright idea is that) I poured some water in the intake and exhaust ports and both exhaust and intake valves on several cylinders leaked, not a stream, but stead drops.

My thoughts: It is time for to have a valve job. No indication of a head gasket leak. Waiting on a cylinder bore gauge to arrive. I was surprised by the gunky deposits in the cylinders, around the valve edges, and mostly in the intake port side prior to the valves. I am wondering if the injectors are not functioning to spec and due to be replaced, i.e. dribbling fuel or bad pattern? I also am wondering if they are the primary cause of the gunky deposits, the black/white smoke while cranking starting, and the oily intake ports and valves???

I have not removed the injectors because I want to find a new ones prior to removing the old ones. The local kubota dealer does not have testing equipment nor do they send them out...they just replace them because cost wise it make the most sense. Any good sources for L345 injectors?

What do the wizards of smarts think about the pics and deposits. Especially note the intake valve on cylinder #4 is actually leaving an impression in the piston build up deposit ( and to a lesser extent on #1). Finally, I would note that when I changed fuel filter I was amazed at the sludge in the filter. I guessed it was most likely water from tanks condensation over a long time. I drained the tank, added new fuel with Power Service, new filter, and bled the system. Any comments?
 

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MagKarl

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L245DT
Aug 2, 2010
663
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Olympia, WA
What does "multiple extended glow plug activation" mean?

What kind of ambient temps are we talking about?

How long are you firing them and do you know if they are working?

Have you verified that the decompression lever is not making any valve contact?
 

kuboman

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Dec 6, 2009
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Canada
I would get the head overhauled with new injectors and new head gasket. what do the cylinder walls look like? Are the smooth and shinny or can you still see crosshatch marks?
If the cylinders are not worn too bad put it back together with the new head and it should be good.
 

Diydave

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L2202 tractor, L185f tractor
Oct 31, 2013
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With that valve imprint on the piston top, of pic#2, I would say at least, it needs the valve lash checked...:eek:
 

OlTrailDog

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L345DT w/ loader backhoe
Dec 4, 2014
61
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Bozeman, MT
"Am I supposed to keep quiet?? " Nope, it seems you often have been the one who takes the initiative to provide answers. Greatly appreciated, and I hoped simply to stir up some other involvement ;) It is sort of like talking to the local Kubota dealer, i.e. not much interest in "old" tractors...but would certainly would like to interest you in a new one. Right, sure thing. I got a little hot with the local "service" guy when he expressed reluctance to even look at the tractor, and finally told him that I would be foolish not to at least take the head off and check out my suspicions that the low compression was due to the valves versus spending $15K for a different used TLB. $1K versus $15K...go figure.

What does "multiple extended glow plug activation" mean? : With ambient temperature less than 35F it typically takes glowplugs activation for 1 minute/pull decomp/ getting cranking speed up/close decomp/sputter cough cough/spew black and white smoke/ repeat for six or more times before I am feeling lucky and it actually starts. Then it is like music to my ears, no smoke, and the engine purrs with no difference in sound when I crack injectors one at a time.

The glowplugs are new (I had one bad one and replaced all with a new set that I tested prior to installing) The glowplug indicator works and I am assuming the GPs work because I'm confident it would not start otherwise.

The cylinder walls are smooth with a little ring lip that I can feel only on one side of all four cylinders. I am waiting on an inexpensive cylinder bore gauge to measure the wear since I am at this point.

I checked the valves after I got the tractor and they were all in spec between .007-.009. I did not set the decompression assembly, but I was reading today in an aperators manual for the M40 (V1502) marine engine that they should be reset whenever the rocker cover is removed or tightened. This is something that I have not readjusted, but this will be a mandatory step when the head goes back on, as will resetting all the valve lash.

Have you verified that the decompression lever is not making any valve contact?: It is definitely not making contact when off because the decomp bolts rotate way out of the way of the valve stems. There is a possibility that if one was screwed down too far it would hold the exhaust valve too far when engaged. But, unless I am mistaken the decomp hold the exhaust valves open and not the intake...and the impression in the deposit is from the intact valve and not the exhaust valve.

Frankly, because it seems such a hassle to pull the front axle to get access to the lower block I am highly inclined to have the head/valves done install new injectors, like kuboman suggested. I am having one female dog of a time finding the injector part number for this tractor! Any clues? Also, I would like opinions on going for new liners/pistons/rings versus boring and trying to find oversize parts? Seems like the liners/pistons/rings is the simplest and probably cost effective since I would need to purchase oversized pistons/rings anyway.

Thanks for the replies, comments, insights, and suggestions!
 

North Idaho Wolfman

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It definitely needs the head rebuilt!
The oily residue could be from fuel not being burnt well or sucking oil in the valve guides , or yes bad rings.
It needs new or rebuild the injectors (just replace them on a unit that old)!

It's possible that the cylinders are worn and it would be smart to pull it, sleeve it, and rebuild it, But I don't think it's 100% imperative to it operation.
Could you rebuild the head and still have a lower end problem, yes it's possible, but if the blow-by was low, had good oil pressure, and didn't have any knocks then your odds are good that the lower end has a lot of life left in it.

Injectors are P/N 70000-65209 $63.80
http://www.colemanequip.com/Parts_Detail.asp?partID=16504
 
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ShaunRH

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L3200
May 14, 2014
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That looks like a lot of carbon build up so I'm not sure the unit is running properly or it just needs a good cleaning.

My guess is that the valve seats also have carbon build up and that is where your leaks are coming from. You can have a new valve job done but you might get the same results if you just took out each valve, cleaned it up and the seat up (inspecting each for damage of course) and re-installed.

When you kill the engine with decompression, the injectors still happily push fuel into the cylinder but there's no compression to ignite it so you get wet fuel around your piston, exhaust and possibly even intake valves. The next time you start it up (especially under cold conditions) that wet fuel no longer wants to ignite and you have a lot of unburned fuel that turns into carbon when you finally DO get it to ignite, thus the motor ends up looking and performing like you see.

Diesels need to be shut off by fuel starvation, not loss of compression. Doing it with compression loss once in a great while won't hurt the motor, but repeatedly will make a mess of it.

So, cleaning the valves, the pistons, and the fuel system might resolve your problems entirely. I'd also keep running a diesel additive for a while just to make sure it remains clean.
 

OlTrailDog

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L345DT w/ loader backhoe
Dec 4, 2014
61
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Bozeman, MT
Hallelujah! Thus you understand the thread title :)

OMG, you don't know how many hours I've poured over the internet looking at Universal 5432, V1501, and V1502 info trying to come up with a valid part number for the injectors that will end up finding one for sale. Until now the only option has been the Universal 5432, aka Kubota V1501, marine injector, a mere $349 for one, no way Jose!

And thus, It appears that good ol' Kubota has changed the numbers again. Coleman's said this is the pup I need for the L345. Albeit, I am rather disappointed that it is only $65 versus the $349, must be the gold universal 5432 marine paint job, eh? Guess I'll have to live with that.

I am in accord with kuboman and wolfman that I'll do the valves, injectors, reassemble and hope that there is enough life to meet my construction needs for the next couple of seasons. If everything else runs well, like it has been, I will look at scrounging up the parts for an overhaul. I have been warned that the power steering pump for these critters is scarer than Jane Fonda at a veteran's day parade, so I must take it easy.
 

CaveCreekRay

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Leaky valves = lower compression = lower heat upon combustion = incomplete combustion, especially after what Shaun said about dumping raw gas in upon shutdown. Surprising the old thing ran at all. That carbon will glow like a glow plug and that may have been just enough to keep it running, especially at idle.

Unless the oil was never changed, 1300 hours doesn't sound like enough to wear any lower "bits" out.

Keep us tuned on the progress.
 

Tooljunkie

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Well that is some of the best advice i have seen regarding decompression and poor compression.
Carbon buildup, and using decompressor could possibly mean bent valves. Not 100% this would bend them, but whacking the carbon on piston cant be good under any conditions.

I also got more knowed up on decompressor. Thanks guys.
 

CaveCreekRay

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TJ,

That was AWESOME!

We ought to make that the Orange Forum motto: "Get Knowed-up On All things Orange!!!"

:D
 

OlTrailDog

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L345DT w/ loader backhoe
Dec 4, 2014
61
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Bozeman, MT
Well the head is off to the machine shop for a valve job. I took the injectors out and every one was black with soot. New injectors will be ordered tomorrow. Those injectors were in majorly tight, i.e. the worst one took a three foot cheater on a 1 1/16 box end after pulling the fuel return barbs off to get the box end over it. I just ordered a 27 mm flare nut crowfoot for installation and torqueing the new ones in. Inexpensive bore gauge on the way too.

One thing I really would like to ask Mr. Wizard. I pulled the lower radiator hose off expecting to drain the block and replace the hose heater at the same time. Much to my chagrin when I pulled the head off there was still plenty of coolant left to spill all over the block and down in the pistons wells (thankfully 1 and 4 were TDC since I had barred #1 to TDC before removing the head) and a tad bit into the lifter cups. Hmmmm, I thought that wasn't a whole lot of coolant even for such a small engine, eh? Too late now. SO WHERE THE HECK DO YOU DRAIN THE BLOCK???

Time for another oil change. Reminded me of when the timing chain on my 83 toyota tacoma wore through the case and dumped coolant into the crankcase while driving up to Mammoth, Yellowstone Park one fine -15F winter morning. Fried the bearings. On the bright side, I will say is that toyota was a dream to rebuild after that untimely event; well layed out design, plenty of room, and easy to work on.

Last thing, I certainly can't imagine what it would be like to have to tackle a project tractor without the internet, google searches, youtube, ebay, and forums like this. Guess I'd be left to the tender mercies of the local Kubota dealer jonsing to sell me a new or newer TLB, eh?
 

ShaunRH

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NIWolfman is the wizard. My dad and grandpa are old wrenchers. I only learn from them or the school of bleeding knuckles.
 

Tooljunkie

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School of hard knocks is the tried and true method of learning. Self taught everything. Mr wolfman stands above many of the knowledgeable people i know, we are very fortunate to have him here.
 

pendoreille

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School of hard knocks is the tried and true method of learning. Self taught everything. Mr wolfman stands above many of the knowledgeable people i know, we are very fortunate to have him here.
A big thank-you to NIWolfman and the other genius minds here on OTT. I know what happens when I turn the key, dump and curl...float, engage, the importance of maintenance, what a wealth of information! Thanks again.
 

North Idaho Wolfman

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One thing I really would like to ask Mr. Wizard. I pulled the lower radiator hose off expecting to drain the block and replace the hose heater at the same time. Much to my chagrin when I pulled the head off there was still plenty of coolant left to spill all over the block and down in the pistons wells (thankfully 1 and 4 were TDC since I had barred #1 to TDC before removing the head) and a tad bit into the lifter cups. Hmmmm, I thought that wasn't a whole lot of coolant even for such a small engine, eh? Too late now. SO WHERE THE HECK DO YOU DRAIN THE BLOCK???
The design of the front gear case cover does allow it to trap water in the engine, hence the real need for a block drain.
Can I suggest spraying some WD40 on and around The block drain should be just under the Injection pump.
 

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OlTrailDog

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L345DT w/ loader backhoe
Dec 4, 2014
61
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Bozeman, MT
Thanks Wolfman. I saw that petcock just below the pump. I thought it must be to drain the pump because of the location. Since I have a healthy respect for doing anything that involves messing with the fuel pumps I didn't even crack it just to see.

In retrospect I wish I'd have seen ShaunRH's post and at least disassembled the valves to see if that would have been a good way to go. But at least this way I'll know the head is up to specs and I can consider it a $367 lesson learned.

Speaking of lessons, I've seen some posts where folks have hooked the injectors up outside of the engine, turned over the engine to check the spray pattern and for dribble. Sort of a shade tree injector testing, eh? What are thought on this. Or does advice lean toward not messing with it and ordering new injectors. The best price I've found is $56 + $10 core out of Oregon Fuel Injection for new Denso Injectors. This is about $8 to $10 less than elsewhere. Any experience with these folks?

I thought I'd tag along a couple of pics of the beast I'm working on and why I so jacked about getting it up and running.
 

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North Idaho Wolfman

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L3450DT-GST, Woods FEL, B7100 HSD, FEL, 60" SB, 743 Bobcat with V2203, and more
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Sandpoint, ID
I do want to clarify that it's not the valve that is directly off the side of the injection pump, that valve is a fuel bleeder valve, the block drain is below that on the side of the block.

Yes you could hook up the injectors on the side and see how the pattern is looking, but if your going through the trouble to do the Head do the top end a favor and give it new or good rebuilt injectors. :D

I have not personally had any dealings with, Oregon Fuel Injection, but others I know have and no bad comments from them.
They also have a huge stock of parts and have been doing it for quite a long time so I would say they are a safe bet.

That is a nice looking unit, and it should serve you well! :cool: