M7060,.. Are wheel weights a must & a creeper gear?

[McMXi]

Whether 2 or 3 cast weights will extend outside of the wheel/tire will depend upon how rims are mounted. Yes, set of 3 will extend outside of wheel/tire in most cases.

With regards to the M6060/M7060, three wheel weights will not extend beyond the tire in two of the four configurations i.e. configurations 3 & 4 shown in the chart below. My tractor is set up like #3 and looking at the photo below the factory wheels weights clearly do not extend beyond the tire.

 

[MapleLeafFarmer]

OK ... so is the consensus that creep range is intended for situations where going slow is desired without much load on the tractor? If that's the case, it's counter to my understanding of low range in every truck and Jeep that I've owned over the years where maximum torque at the drive wheels is the objective.

you are 100% correct that using when tractor loads are less than moderate.
Low range on trucks and creeper gears on small tractors like the M's can be two very different animals.

In the Kubota tractor world creeper is only for precision work when there is low or at most moderate loads on the transmission and drive train. They warn that in high torque situations bad things can and will happen wickedly quick. Its just not for very HD uses when traction is strong.

YMMV

 

[McMXi]

you are 100% correct that using when tractor loads are less than moderate.
Low range on trucks and creeper gears on small tractors like the M's can be two very different animals.

In the Kubota tractor world creeper is only for precision work when there is low or at most moderate loads on the transmission and drive train. They warn that in high torque situations bad things can and will happen wickedly quick.

YMMV

So is loading/unloading onto a truck or trailer, or entering/leaving a field considered to be placing high loads on the transmission and drivetrain?

 

[MapleLeafFarmer]

So is loading/unloading onto a truck or trailer, or entering/leaving a field considered to be placing high loads on the transmission and drivetrain?

Absolutely in the Ag. world!!

we were taught in grade school its both high load and high danger.

driving out / into fields and onto / off of trailer causes big stresses on the tractor frames and other components. These are extreme take care type of things so personal saftey and saftey of equipment important.

Adding extra stress on precision gear set (vs max. strength gear set) like how Kubota designs their creeper gear is considered a bad thing so they give lots of warnings in their literature about this. We get to choose to follow or not.

I guess they had two choices. They could have gone with a bigger / stronger / heavier creeper design like semi trucks do or our first crawler had. But instead they went with a more precision approach of lighter / more precise over land speed control for detailed work. As a farmer we thank them for giving us what we need.

here is an example, our target tractor ground speed for planting lettuce is .7 mph. lettuce needs to be planted at 1/8" depth so a very consistent speed control is key to get this critical depth control. We need precision speed gear sets not max. strength designs. A semi on the other hand does not need a creeper gear as precise so they go for strength. Our first cat crawler would have sucked planting lettuce but great for breaking virgin ground. I guess they can't do both?? I guess we caulk this up to right tool for the intended job??

 

[McMXi]

Absolutely in the Ag. world!!

we were taught in grade school its both high load and high danger.

driving out / into fields and onto / off of trailer causes big stresses on the tractor frames and other components. These are extreme take care type of things so personal saftey and saftey of equipment important.

Adding extra stress on precision gear set (vs max. strength gear set) like how Kubota designs their creeper gear is considered a bad thing so they give lots of warnings in their literature about this. We get to choose to follow or not.

I guess they had two choices. They could have gone with a bigger / stronger / heavier creeper design like semi trucks do or our first crawler had. But instead they went with a more precision approach of lighter / more precise over land speed control for detailed work. As a farmer we thank them for giving us what we need.

here is an example, our target tractor ground speed for planting lettuce is .7 mph. lettuce needs to be planted at 1/8" depth so a very consistent speed control is key to get this critical depth control. We need precision speed gear sets not max. strength designs. A semi on the other hand does not need a creeper gear as precise so they go for strength. Our first cat crawler would have sucked planting lettuce but great for breaking virgin ground. I guess they can't do both?? I guess we caulk this up to right tool for the intended job??

I'm on vacation today so looking at the WSM for the M6060/M7060 and trying to understand how it all works. Good stuff and thanks for the explanations.

 

[McMXi]

So this creep range thing has sent me down a rabbit hole. I've been looking at the WSM and now have a much better understanding of how the Creep range works. I've done the math too and the numbers check out i.e. the gear reductions. I made this schematic to help myself see what's going on with the three shafts in the transmission related to moving the tractor.

The 44T gear on the third shaft isn't as wide as the 24T-44T gear on the third shaft and in Creep Range it's being driven by the 14T gear on the creep gear shaft. It looks like the 45T gear on the creep gear shaft mirrors the 44T on the the third shaft in terms of thickness.

This does help to convince me that Creep Range might not be as robust as I thought it was. Good discussion I think, and fortunately I haven't done any stressful work in Creep Range. Just driving on/off trailers and hooking up to implements, and driving through deep snow of course.

 

[McMXi]

I would think it’s how small/weak the creep range gear itself is. The small gear is a thin gear maybe 2” in diameter.

I'm not convinced that this is the case based upon the schematic that I made above. I think the thickness of the 45T gear and mating 44T gear on the third shaft might be the limiting factor. But if being wrong means that I learn something then I'm all for it. That's the true scientific method right.

 

[SDT]

OK ... so is the consensus that creep range is intended for situations where going slow is desired without much load on the tractor? If that's the case, it's counter to my understanding of low range in every truck and Jeep that I've owned over the years where maximum torque at the drive wheels is the objective.

you are 100% correct that using when tractor loads are less than moderate.
Low range on trucks and creeper gears on small tractors like the M's can be two very different animals.

In the Kubota tractor world creeper is only for precision work when there is low or at most moderate loads on the transmission and drive train. They warn that in high torque situations bad things can and will happen wickedly quick. Its just not for very HD uses when traction is strong.

YMMV

Bingo.

 

[SDT]

The manual says use creep for "harrowing" but I had no trouble pulling this disc harrow around in L2 and L3. This was a hilly property too and the harrow weighs 2,000 lb or more.

View attachment 172339

Absolutely no idea why anyone would need or even want to use creep range when pulling a disc harrow???

 

[McMXi]

Absolutely no idea why anyone would need or even want to use creep range when pulling a disc harrow???

I'm not a farmer so perhaps I misunderstand what they mean by "harrowing". Also, what does "turf work" cover. Spraying perhaps?

Truthfully, I do 99% of my work with the M6060 in low range and mostly L1, L2 or L3.

 

[JasonW]

I'm not a farmer so perhaps I misunderstand what they mean by "harrowing". Also, what does "turf work" cover. Spraying perhaps?

Truthfully, I do 99% of my work with the M6060 in low range and mostly L1, L2 or L3.

I think that wording in the manual might be a translation error or different names for equipment around the world.
As a “harrow” can be anything that is used to break down soil.

 

[Stitchit1]

@JasonW .... here you go.

View attachment 172333

Wow!! Thank you so much!

 

[GrumpyFarmer]

So this creep range thing has sent me down a rabbit hole. I've been looking at the WSM and now have a much better understanding of how the Creep range works. I've done the math too and the numbers check out i.e. the gear reductions. I made this schematic to help myself see what's going on with the three shafts in the transmission related to moving the tractor.

The 44T gear on the third shaft isn't as wide as the 24T-44T gear on the third shaft and in Creep Range it's being driven by the 14T gear on the creep gear shaft. It looks like the 45T gear on the creep gear shaft mirrors the 44T on the the third shaft in terms of thickness.

This does help to convince me that Creep Range might not be as robust as I thought it was. Good discussion I think, and fortunately I haven't done any stressful work in Creep Range. Just driving on/off trailers and hooking up to implements, and driving through deep snow of course.

View attachment 172344

This is very interesting to me as I have not purchased a utility tractor, yet. (There is a strong rumor my spousal unit has mentioned buying one recently though) I am also not familiar with the transmission and pedal set up on a M. On equipment I have been around, that have a creeper gear, they use a clutch/pedal, and my understanding is that the reason for the creeper gear is low speed (sometimes high rpms) and don’t want to constantly be usually by the clutch pedal (more control without using the clutch pedal).

that being said, I’m not sure why one wouldn’t want the extra gears? I’d certainly rather have more gears on the low end than the high end. (I would want them on a geared machine if I were ordering)

I am not sure I understand the relation to some of the applications… almost wonder that is a translation error in the service publications….or maybe it’s just a recommendation.

 

[McMXi]

@MapleLeafFarmer made an interesting point about planting lettuce at 0.7 mph. Without creep range the slowest I could go in the M6060 (at rated engine rpm) is 1.6 mph. Of course I could reduce rpm to get 0.7 mph but that's not great if you're climbing a hill or generally lugging the engine. With creep range I can reduce the ground speed while maintaining rpm and/or torque for hills, but also it's better for the engine to be running closer to 2,000 rpm than 1,000 rpm.

 

[Russell King]

Perhaps they mean a power harrow that is trying to break the soil clods down, or a power rake like this one where slow ground speed would certainly help the implement.

Power Rake Attachment • Virnig Mfg

Grade, rake, level and remove debris all with one attachment.

www.virnigmfg.com

 

[Runs With Scissors]

I have "no dog in this race” because I only have a “toy tractor”.

However, this whole concept/discussion of not using “low gear” for "high stress” situations is utterly and completely “counter-intuitive" to me.

Now that it has been pointed out, I guess I get it (kinda?), but for the life of me, I still can’t wrap my small mind around why they didn't just make that gear wider, hence tougher?

I NEVER would have thunk it, and if I had a "real tractor” I would have busted something for sure.

Carry on gentlemen.

 

[JasonW]

I have "no dog in this race” because I only have a “toy tractor”.

However, this whole concept/discussion of not using “low gear” for "high stress” situations is utterly and completely “counter-intuitive" to me.

Now that it has been pointed out, I guess I get it (kinda?), but for the life of me, I still can’t wrap my small mind around why they didn't just make that gear wider, hence tougher?

I NEVER would have thunk it, and if I had a "real tractor” I would have busted something for sure.

Carry on gentlemen.

It’s about using PTO implements at very low speeds. At PTO engine speed. I have seen some people say their tractor is slow enough at idle but that’s not what it’s for. Like what was mentioned earlier like a lettuce planter. PTO sprayers in orchards. Tilling, etc. I can use my tiller in 1st low but it works better in 3rd or 4th creep range especially only making one pass over turf.

Plowing and discing requires more speed. Most recommend 3-5 MPH or faster to be effective. Larger tractors are able to travel faster due to larger tire sizes and even larger tractors (150hp and more) have suspensions.

 

[MapleLeafFarmer]

I'm not a farmer so perhaps I misunderstand what they mean by "harrowing". Also, what does "turf work" cover. Spraying perhaps?

Truthfully, I do 99% of my work with the M6060 in low range and mostly L1, L2 or L3.

Harrowing: is the work I make to smooth out my fields in preparation for putting in my seed or plants. To make this work I can use different implements or harrows. To be most cost effective I need as much of my seed to germinate as possible. A big part of this is to get the planting depth correct. Generally the smaller the seed the more precise / consistent I need to get my seed.

Carrots: have target depth 1/4" with variance 1/8" so my harrow work needs to be pretty precise.
Corn: have target depth of 2" with variance of 1" so my harrow work can be less precise.

so to make my seed bed I need to first decide what i am going to plant then before I start my harrowing work I pick the harrow (tool) I need to get the job done.

Carrots: If I need a very smooth seed bed for my carrots I hook up my power harrow. Dang that makes a beautifully smooth seed bed. But its slow and per acre very expensive to run as my ground speed is so low and width of run small leading to high fuel, equipment and labour cost.

Sweet Corn: I can plant in much rougher ground as depth control at time of planting I can be pretty sloppy and corn planters make easier work at placing seed at correct depth then a carrot planter. Commercial guys growing for silage or seed corn often don't bother harrowing (smoothing the seed bed) at all. Me in a self pick sweet corn field I couldn't have city folk walking through rough fields they would break ankles and never come back is clumpy so I harrow with a disk harrow cause its what was handed down to me. Sure I could use a tine harrow but mine is narrow so more expensive per acre to use. I don't own a working toothed harrow and my chain harrow is so small its basically for pathway maintenance.

Anyways... long winded after my 4 cups of morning coffee. Harrowing is making the work and the harrow is the tool used. I own 4 different types of harrows of various sizes. Harrowing is a good job for the newbies and grand kids to make. Jump on and have at it kinda work around here. Save the more precision seeding / spraying to the more experienced.

If John Deere can get their TruSet working well their full autonomy add on cost is about $40k for the install and $10k for annual license won't need to find a operator for tillage work again. Crap its impossible to find a good farm worker anymore unless you live on a Hutterite Colony it seems so this technology could save use $50k / year in salary awith a lot related to Harrowing with a Harrow.

Cheers and thanks for listening from a guy with hands on experience but 0 specialized training/expertise.

 

[McMXi]

I have "no dog in this race” because I only have a “toy tractor”.

However, this whole concept/discussion of not using “low gear” for "high stress” situations is utterly and completely “counter-intuitive" to me.

Now that it has been pointed out, I guess I get it (kinda?), but for the life of me, I still can’t wrap my small mind around why they didn't just make that gear wider, hence tougher?

I NEVER would have thunk it, and if I had a "real tractor” I would have busted something for sure.

Carry on gentlemen.

I think it's obvious from my posts that I was/am in the same boat and I agree that for many of us it's counter-intuitive. Many HST tractors have low, mid and high ranges and we hear that with an HST tractor we should use low range for loader (hard) work, mid range for mowing and high range for highway use.

It's no surprise that our intuition is wrong given the HST experience and the fact that we probably have similar backgrounds with off-road vehicles and trucks where low range has two primary functions, . One is to obtain a controlled descent down a steep grade, and the other (trucks typically) is for pulling a heavy load up a steep grade. I've done this many times on my driveway at different times of the year, and 4WD in low range is the way to do it. By using low range (gear reduction) you're reducing the amount of power needed to get the load from A to B because you're increasing the time it takes to do the same amount of work. Kind of a block and tackle trick.

I enjoy these discussions because they get me thinking and learning. What I'm learning with regards to my tractor, and geared tractors in general, is that there's a completely different motivation for using gear reduction via creep range. I assumed a tractor was using further gear reduction as a way to improve the ability to pull heavier loads, but now it seems the motivation is entirely about ground speed relative to engine speed, a problem that HST tractors don't have since they're independent variables.

 

[SDT]

It’s about using PTO implements at very low speeds. At PTO engine speed. I have seen some people say their tractor is slow enough at idle but that’s not what it’s for. Like what was mentioned earlier like a lettuce planter. PTO sprayers in orchards. Tilling, etc. I can use my tiller in 1st low but it works better in 3rd or 4th creep range especially only making one pass over turf.

Plowing and discing requires more speed. Most recommend 3-5 MPH or faster to be effective. Larger tractors are able to travel faster due to larger tire sizes and even larger tractors (150hp and more) have suspensions.

Tobacco was once the cash crop on small hill farms in the Ohio River valley (and elsewhere).

Tobacco plants were/are germinated in a seed bed and subsequently transplanted into the fields where they are cultivated.

In decades past, farmers would use a tobacco "setter" (transplanter) to set the plants. Fragile tobacco plants were manually transferred from the plant boxes to the setter wheel(s) by workers riding on the setter. It was necessary for the ground speed of the setter to be quite low for the workers to keep up.

In decades past, many/most farm tractors were not geared slowly enough to operate tobacco setters so small tobacco farmers searched for small tractors that were suitable for such work. Some of these small tractors were also suitable to operate the mechanical cultivators and side dressers then used to cultivate and fertilize the expensive plants during the growing season. Ford tractors with Select-O-Speed transmissions were ideal for setting but, absent the 571 offset model, not for cultivation.

Perfect application for tractors with so-called creeper gears, although very few offered such gearing at the time.