In search of a better truck for towing the M6060 and folding cutter.

[lugbolt]

That's a pretty simplistic and elitist view of the diesel vs. gas engine choice. There's a lot more nuance here, and if you need or want to tow heavy trailer loads around there's little doubt that diesel is the way to go. The difference in torque is huge in the chart that @Botamon posted, not to mention where the peak torque is in the rpm range.

I won't be parting with my '02 F-250 7.3L diesel. It's a good truck, and a great truck if used within it's intended operating parameters.

and that 7.3 diesel is gutless compared to the newer ones. I'm about done with mine. Gutless, costs $200 to change oil every so often, it's old and things are breaking. I have to put injectors and cups in it sooner or later and that's another big expense. I won't replace it with another diesel for sure. Go drive one of the new gas burners. They pull a LOT better than these old 7.3 diesels do. Trust me, I have driven them and I'm actually impressed with them.

Only reason I bought mine was because it was there, it was low mileage, and the price was right (even trade, well almost). I couldn't not buy it. I didn't want it but I couldn't not do it. Wanted the 6.8 gas. I had driven those and they are impressive too. at the time my boss had the exact same truck I do (2003 F250 CCSB 7.3 4x4 lariat) which we used for pulling tractors around (deliveries) so I was familiar with it. Dad had a 95 PSD at the same time as well. He even said the same things. I should have never bought that diesel; and later on he got rid of it for a gas burner.

 

[jyoutz]

and that 7.3 diesel is gutless compared to the newer ones. I'm about done with mine. Gutless, costs $200 to change oil every so often, it's old and things are breaking. I have to put injectors and cups in it sooner or later and that's another big expense. I won't replace it with another diesel for sure. Go drive one of the new gas burners. They pull a LOT better than these old 7.3 diesels do. Trust me, I have driven them and I'm actually impressed with them.

Only reason I bought mine was because it was there, it was low mileage, and the price was right (even trade, well almost). I couldn't not buy it. I didn't want it but I couldn't not do it. Wanted the 6.8 gas. I had driven those and they are impressive too. at the time my boss had the exact same truck I do (2003 F250 CCSB 7.3 4x4 lariat) which we used for pulling tractors around (deliveries) so I was familiar with it. Dad had a 95 PSD at the same time as well. He even said the same things. I should have never bought that diesel; and later on he got rid of it for a gas burner.

A 7.3 is the most reliable powerstroke ever built and it’s not unusual to get 500k miles out of that engine. You talk gutless but my father in law always used his to pull his stock trailer with 6-8 steers to the sale barn. At 6000’ elevation.

 

[lugbolt]

upper shock bushing....... They claimed it's all one piece, bushing pressed in, can't change it, BS, BS, BS..
After expounding on their monumental level of stupidity & dishonesty, I drove down the road to an O'Reilly's, bought a bushing & a socket, and changed it myself in about 3 minutes.
It is still there.

I could go on & on, but suffice to say I hate dealerships.

Dealers don't sell parts from oreilly's. They sell OEM parts. Polaris is same way, you have to get the whole shock assembly to get the end bushings. Aftermarket, you can get the bushings. Why? Because most of the time when the shock bushings are gone, the shocks are long past worn out too; so OEM you have to get the whole thing. Same for Ford. And GM. Many OEM's are like that. And, the OEM may not even make the bushings, they probably buy the shocks from a supplier as an assembly. Vendor issue there of which the manufacturer may not have anything to do with. Polaris uses Sachs on a lot of them. Good stuff but Polaris doesn't make bushings for them. Sachs may not even make then, they may source them elsewhere and install them as part of "manufacturing". Vendor issue....

far as dealerships in general, the general consensus is that they all suck. But they dont' suck when you need them. Pretty much the way it is. I watch groups and forums pretty often and sometimes I see the exact same type of things you've described but then maybe a month or three later, the same people "had to get warranty work done". Well if you hate dealers that bad, maybe you outta pay for it and do it yourself??

So why are dealers "that bad"? Because dealer techs are people. Imperfect, people. I will challenge any person outside the dealership that thinks that they can do a better job to apply. There is a LOT more to being a dealer tech than just working on stuff....

 

[lugbolt]

A 7.3 is the most reliable powerstroke ever built and it’s not unusual to get 500k miles out of that engine. You talk gutless but my father in law always used his to pull his stock trailer with 6-8 steers to the sale barn. At 6000’ elevation.

They are GUTLESS by comparison to a bone stock 6.7. 275hp (mine) and 450 lb-ft. New 6.7 is closer to 500hp/1000 lb ft as I recall. Twice the power, and with a MUCH better geared transmission. As time goes on, they do in fact get better. Just a LOT more expensive.

mine's tuned and makes up to 140hp over stock, but guess what? It's still a slug compared to the newer ones. The 6.0's were faster. A lot faster. I liked them, but only if they'd stay running. Some do, some don't.

 

[jyoutz]

They are GUTLESS by comparison to a bone stock 6.7. 275hp (mine) and 450 lb-ft. New 6.7 is closer to 500hp/1000 lb ft as I recall. Twice the power, and with a MUCH better geared transmission. As time goes on, they do in fact get better. Just a LOT more expensive.

mine's tuned and makes up to 140hp over stock, but guess what? It's still a slug compared to the newer ones. The 6.0's were faster. A lot faster. I liked them, but only if they'd stay running. Some do, some don't.

Not too many of those with 500k miles like the 7.3 powerstrokes and 5.9 Cummins.

 

[Lil Foot]

Dealers don't sell parts from oreilly's. They sell OEM parts. Polaris is same way, you have to get the whole shock assembly to get the end bushings. Aftermarket, you can get the bushings. Why? Because most of the time when the shock bushings are gone, the shocks are long past worn out too; so OEM you have to get the whole thing. Same for Ford. And GM. Many OEM's are like that. And, the OEM may not even make the bushings, they probably buy the shocks from a supplier as an assembly. Vendor issue there of which the manufacturer may not have anything to do with. Polaris uses Sachs on a lot of them. Good stuff but Polaris doesn't make bushings for them. Sachs may not even make then, they may source them elsewhere and install them as part of "manufacturing". Vendor issue....

far as dealerships in general, the general consensus is that they all suck. But they dont' suck when you need them. Pretty much the way it is. I watch groups and forums pretty often and sometimes I see the exact same type of things you've described but then maybe a month or three later, the same people "had to get warranty work done". Well if you hate dealers that bad, maybe you outta pay for it and do it yourself??

So why are dealers "that bad"? Because dealer techs are people. Imperfect, people. I will challenge any person outside the dealership that thinks that they can do a better job to apply. There is a LOT more to being a dealer tech than just working on stuff....

Shocks were not worn out, we had hit a huge deep chuckhole earlier that day.
Even if that were the case, $2200 for 4 shocks, 15 years ago?
They saw an out of state truck on vacation and thought they could make some easy money by ripping me off.

As for techs outside the dealership, my independent diesel mechanic started out working for the same dealership that overfilled my engine by twice its capacity.
He quit because he didn't like ripping people off, and knew he could do better, and he has.
That dealership spent 6+ weeks trying to re-seal my engine, and it started leaking 13 days out of warranty, at about 4500 miles.
My guy re-sealed it in 4 days time, and it hasn't leaked a drop since, after 190K more miles.

Dealerships (at least out here) are only in it for maximum money.... customer service, reliability, and reputation have all gone by the wayside.
They hire the cheapest labor, (high school kids in the case of my disastrous oil change) the most dishonest
service writers, and high pressure sales & finance people.
No matter how badly they treat people, there are always more suckers to fleece, so they don't care about repeat customers.
I doubt I will ever buy a new vehicle again.

My Lincoln dealer has been the exception, and has been awesome, except that they treat people so well, they are incredibly popular, and can't find enough quality people to work there, so lead times can be long.
For example, they have 110+ late model, low mileage, loaded Lincoln SUVs as loaners....

 

[McMXi]

I won't replace it with another diesel for sure. Go drive one of the new gas burners. They pull a LOT better than these old 7.3 diesels do. Trust me, I have driven them and I'm actually impressed with them.

They are GUTLESS by comparison to a bone stock 6.7. 275hp (mine) and 450 lb-ft. New 6.7 is closer to 500hp/1000 lb ft as I recall. Twice the power, and with a MUCH better geared transmission. As time goes on, they do in fact get better. Just a LOT more expensive.

mine's tuned and makes up to 140hp over stock, but guess what? It's still a slug compared to the newer ones. The 6.0's were faster. A lot faster. I liked them, but only if they'd stay running. Some do, some don't.

I have no interest in a gas powdered pick up truck, and of course the newer trucks are better performers. It's been 25 years since the 7.3L was introduced! The 6.7L H.O. engine is rated at 500hp and 1,200 lb-ft which is almost 3x the torque available in the bigger 7.3L gas engine!! I have a friend who spent $25k upgrading his '02 Excursion with injectors, HPOP, turbo, transmission etc., and that would be a fun thing to do with a project truck, but only if there's something else to do the work.

The factory numbers for my '02 F-250 are 250hp and 505 lb-ft but I typically run the +80hp/+120 lb-ft daily driver tune or the +80hp tow tune. The programmer has 16 or more tunes with one that's +140hp but I don't run that one. My truck is limited by the four-speed automatic transmission, TC lockup only in 3rd gear and the 3.73 rear end, but like I said, it was adequate pulling a 10,000 lb trailer over for mountain passes, just not capable to pull a trailer that weighs 16,000 lb or more.

I've been going down the F-350 vs F-450 rabbit hole, and the F-450 only beats the F-350 in one area which is conventional tow rating with 30,000 lb (4.30 ratio) vs. 28,000 lb (4.10 ratio) respectively. An F-350 can pull more on the gooseneck and carry more in the bed compared to the F-450. That's surprising, but most likely due to the F-450 only being available with the 4.30 rear end which must be a lot heavier than the 4.10 option available in the F-350.

So for me, diesel vs. gas is an easy decision, but F-350 vs. F-450 is not so obvious.

https://www.vdm.ford.com/content/dam/brand_ford/en_us/brand/towing/pdf/2024-Ford-Super-Duty-Pickup-Towing-Guide.pdf

 

[Lil Foot]

I have probably towed with my SRW F350 something near 100K miles, both 5th wheel & conventional.
My only and admittedly small experience with F350 vs F450 was a 340 mile 36' 5th wheel pull, over flat ground, and the DRW F450 felt more stable in crosswinds, but rode noticeably rougher.
My 1.2 cents.

 

[McMXi]

I have probably towed with my SRW F350 something near 100K miles, both 5th wheel & conventional.
My only and admittedly small experience with F350 vs F450 was a 340 mile 36' 5th wheel pull, over flat ground, and the DRW F450 felt more stable in crosswinds, but rode noticeably rougher.
My 1.2 cents.

It's always interesting why someone chooses A rather than B or C and we see this play out almost daily on this forum with tractors and implements. Sometimes numbers in spec sheets can be misleading, either intentionally or unintentionally, and again, we see this in the world of tractors.

It's not clear to me at the moment why someone would choose an F-450 over an F-350 but there are subtleties that I'm probably missing. All I am fairly confident in is that either is capable of towing a heavy trailer without needing to have the hazzard lights flashing when pulling over MacDonald Pass outside Helena, or Homestake Pass near Butte.

 

[Siesta Sundance]

It's always interesting why someone chooses A rather than B or C and we see this play out almost daily on this forum with tractors and implements. Sometimes numbers in spec sheets can be misleading, either intentionally or unintentionally, and again, we see this in the world of tractors.

It's not clear to me at the moment why someone would choose an F-450 over an F-350 but there are subtleties that I'm probably missing. All I am fairly confident in is that either is capable of towing a heavy trailer without needing to have the hazzard lights flashing when pulling over MacDonald Pass outside Helena, or Homestake Pass near Butte.

F450, 10 lug wheels, much tighter turning radius than F350, beefier built truck, that 430 rear end is much bigger than 410, look at them side by side in person... not on paper.
All the beefier parts in a F450, larger frame, brakes etc is why it has smaller payload capacity, but not on their towing capacity.

 

[dirtydeed]

Typical GVWR in Cab/Chassis -

F350/3500 - 14K
F450/4500 - 16K
F550/5500 - 19.5K

 

[biketopia]

F450, 10 lug wheels, much tighter turning radius than F350, beefier built truck, that 430 rear end is much bigger than 410, look at them side by side in person... not on paper.
All the beefier parts in a F450, larger frame, brakes etc is why it has smaller payload capacity, but not on their towing capacity.

This is exactly why. The F-450 is essentially a de-rated 550 to help fill a space as a more capable pickup without requiring a cab & chassis of a 550. I deal with all this when specing out trucks for our various departments.

@McMXi look up the actual 30+ page PDF order guide for the year truck you're looking at and it will do a decent job of explaining all the options and various weight ratings, standard equipment, etc. I can pull them back to 23' and e-mail them over. I can also de-code a vin and it should show the options the truck was originally equipped with, feel free to shoot me a DM with any you'd like.

 

[McMXi]

This is exactly why. The F-450 is essentially a de-rated 550 to help fill a space as a more capable pickup without requiring a cab & chassis of a 550. I deal with all this when specing out trucks for our various departments.

@McMXi look up the actual 30+ page PDF order guide for the year truck you're looking at and it will do a decent job of explaining all the options and various weight ratings, standard equipment, etc. I can pull them back to 23' and e-mail them over. I can also de-code a vin and it should show the options the truck was originally equipped with, feel free to shoot me a DM with any you'd like.

Thanks very much. I sent you a PM.

I'm looking at a 2024 F-450 Lariat 4x4 tomorrow that has less than $10k miles on it. It has the 6.7L H.O. engine but also some features that I don't really care about such as the giant double moonroof and chrome package which all add to the cost. But it's worth looking and taking for a test drive as a data point if nothing else.

 

[McMXi]

F450, 10 lug wheels, much tighter turning radius than F350, beefier built truck, that 430 rear end is much bigger than 410, look at them side by side in person... not on paper.
All the beefier parts in a F450, larger frame, brakes etc is why it has smaller payload capacity, but not on their towing capacity.

I can't find data on the turning radius (see link below), but the F-350 with 4.10 rear end is rated higher than the F-450 with the 4.30 rear end in terms of gooseneck towing. The difference is 35,800lb vs. 33,000lb in favor of the F-350. This isn't a deal breaker by any means given that I want/need to be able to tow a little under 20,000lb on a gooseneck.

https://www.ford.com/trucks/super-duty/2024/models/f450-xlt/

 

[biketopia]

Thanks very much. I sent you a PM.

I'm looking at a 2024 F-450 Lariat 4x4 tomorrow that has less than $10k miles on it. It has the 6.7L H.O. engine but also some features that I don't really care about such as the giant double moonroof and chrome package which all add to the cost. But it's worth looking and taking for a test drive as a data point if nothing else.

Just forwarded over a bunch of attachments. The actual rear that's used in the 450 & 550's is a very stout (heavy) setup, much larger bearings, 19'5's standard, etc. The truck can handle the weight better if someone is going to be hauling with it on the regular. It's a stepping stone for the hauling guys since it's available as a pick-up, thus registered as one for taxes, insurance, homeowners association, etc...

 

[McMXi]

Just forwarded over a bunch of attachments. The actual rear that's used in the 450 & 550's is a very stout (heavy) setup, much larger bearings, 19'5's standard, etc. The truck can handle the weight better if someone is going to be hauling with it on the regular. It's a stepping stone for the hauling guys since it's available as a pick-up, thus registered as one for taxes, insurance, homeowners association, etc...

Much appreciated. Yes, the 19.5" wheels did stand out as being standard on the F-450. I'm looking forward to driving one of the newer trucks, since up to this point I've never even sat in one of the 3rd generation 6.7L models.

 

[biketopia]

Much appreciated. Yes, the 19.5" wheels did stand out as being standard on the F-450. I'm looking forward to driving one of the newer trucks, since up to this point I've never even sat in one of the 3rd generation 6.7L models.

Be careful...you'll really like it comparing it to the 7.3's interior. Some of the bells and whistles are a little extra, and I'm never a fan of a sunroof, too much potential for damage, water intrusion, etc. And once it ever has an issue, it's never right again, although my current car has one that has been just fine. As far as the XL/XLT trim level trucks we buy, the interiors hold up decently well with only the very occasional failure of the door lock or window motor. The door latches have been an ongoing thing with Ford forever, but I believe by 24' they figured out how to install the deflector correctly to not fill with moisture and freeze.

 

[Siesta Sundance]

Just forwarded over a bunch of attachments. The actual rear that's used in the 450 & 550's is a very stout (heavy) setup, much larger bearings, 19'5's standard, etc. The truck can handle the weight better if someone is going to be hauling with it on the regular. It's a stepping stone for the hauling guys since it's available as a pick-up, thus registered as one for taxes, insurance, homeowners association, etc...

Yup. I witnessed two F450's leaving a ranch yesterday, both had 40' or plus in length livestock trailers, completely packed with adult size cattle.

I guarantee the weight of those trailers & cows were close to 36k to 40k lbs. Not uncommon here for the farmers and ranchers to overload the towing capacity of those trucks, and its not illegal to be overweight if the trucks/trailers are registered farm use and remain primarily on the FM roads(farm to market) within ~ 150 miles of Ag operation.

 

[hedgerow]

A friend of mine and his son down in Kansas have ran F-450 for years. They have two just a like both white four doors with aluminum flat beds on them and both run gas engines. They pull 40 FT three axle aluminum Wilson stock trailers with them They run a lot of gravel roads and think the 19.5 tires hold up a lot better. They pretty much stay with in 100 miles of home with those trucks as they also run semi's with ground load stock trailers and some pots also. There are like a lot of us that have had enough of diesel problem pickups and probably won't have another. For me the next round of new pickups I will probably buy another half ton V/8 and get rid of my gas one ton that only has thirty thousand miles on it. I don't do a lot of towing and hauling any more and if its a heavy load I just get the semi out of the shed. Even hauling my 100 HP skid steer the twenty miles between farms I had done that a number of times with a half ton truck with no issues. The skid loader trailer is a three axle 21,000 GVW pintel hitch so weight is not a issue on a half ton and plenty of brakes sure I wouldn't haul it hundreds of miles with the half ton but it works if the one ton is at a another farm.

 

[GrassLakeRon]

I pull using a 21' F350 7.3 Godzilla with 4.30's. 4741 lbs bed capacity and 20k+ towing. 10 speed is pure awesomeness.