B3300SU Fluid Change Confusion

[rlawrence]

Dang these manuals could use some rewriting. I thought I was changing the fluid for the HST transmission and filter like the manual says, but now wondering if I'm changing the hydraulic fluid! Yeah, it's really the same fluid right? But the manual never says that. It lists two different filters for each and different interval change outs. But if they are the same fluid, why are they not changed at the same time, and why do they even have two separate filters? Crazy and confusing, as the manual uses "hydraulic" and "Transmission" interchangeably, yet calls out filter to be one hydraulic and one transmission. Confusing.

Also, manual recommends draining rear only when changing out "transmission" filter, but removing all oil when changing out "hydraulic" filter. AND it has a heading to Change Transmission Fluid and Hydraulic Filter.... not both filters. Nuts. And don't see a reason to ever drain rear fluid when changing out transmission filter every 50 hrs.

So.... if my fluid is black, I should be changing both filters and draining front and back transmissions right? Also, what bolt size is the strainer? Nothing in manual and not one I keep. Is it 26 or 27 ml?? my 1 1/16 is just too big for it so guessing.

Thanks.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Dang these manuals could use some rewriting. I thought I was changing the fluid for the HST transmission and filter like the manual says, but now wondering if I'm changing the hydraulic fluid! Yeah, it's really the same fluid right? But the manual never says that. It lists two different filters for each and different interval change outs. But if they are the same fluid, why are they not changed at the same time, and why do they even have two separate filters? Crazy and confusing, as the manual uses "hydraulic" and "Transmission" interchangeably, yet calls out filter to be one hydraulic and one transmission. Confusing.

Also, manual recommends draining rear only when changing out "transmission" filter, but removing all oil when changing out "hydraulic" filter. AND it has a heading to Change Transmission Fluid and Hydraulic Filter.... not both filters. Nuts. And don't see a reason to ever drain rear fluid when changing out transmission filter every 50 hrs.

So.... if my fluid is black, I should be changing both filters and draining front and back transmissions right? Also, what bolt size is the strainer? Nothing in manual and not one I keep. Is it 26 or 27 ml?? my 1 1/16 is just too big for it so guessing.

Thanks.

If your fluid is BLACK your in deep trouble, Hydraulic fluid should NEVER be black.
If you fluid is BLACK, load it on a trailer and take it to a dealer and have it fixed, or better yet trade it in on a new tractor, because it's in bad shape.

The hydraulic/transmission filters do different jobs.
While they share the same sump (fluid tank) they deliver to different components.
The HST (transmission) filter is a much finer element thus needs to be changed more often and also has a second filter screen that works in connection with the spin on filter.
The hydraulic filter is a much courser filter, and that fluid out of it goes to everything except the HST.

 

[nbryan]

So.... if my fluid is black,
...

1. You've drained the engine, not the tranny/hydraulics
2. The previous tranny/hydraulics fluid fill was the wrong fluid, auto tranny fluid maybe?
3. The hydraulic pump and/or transmission is fried. Burnt.
4. 2. + 3.


I hope it's 1. Otherwise BIG trouble.

 

[rlawrence]

1. You've drained the engine, not the tranny/hydraulics
2. The previous tranny/hydraulics fluid fill was the wrong fluid, auto tranny fluid maybe?
3. The hydraulic pump and/or transmission is fried. Burnt.
4. 2. + 3.


I hope it's 1. Otherwise BIG trouble.

I wish. I did engine first and all was normal.
Fluid was either original or done by a Kubota dealer. It had 99 hrs on on when they "serviced" it. Either way, it was done per specs.
"black" may be overstated. More like gray, but obviously not clear.

 

[rlawrence]

If your fluid is BLACK your in deep trouble, Hydraulic fluid should NEVER be black.
If you fluid is BLACK, load it on a trailer and take it to a dealer and have it fixed, or better yet trade it in on a new tractor, because it's in bad shape.

The hydraulic/transmission filters do different jobs.
While they share the same sump (fluid tank) they deliver to different components.
The HST (transmission) filter is a much finer element thus needs to be changed more often and also has a second filter screen that works in connection with the spin on filter.
The hydraulic filter is a much courser filter, and that fluid out of it goes to everything except the HST.

Well, "black" is subjective. Not clear. As a diver I'd say low visibility. Like maybe 1" of visibility in a bucket. On the dip stick it still looked clear. But when in my palm or bucket it showed how dirty. It was actually when I changed filter I noticed it. Was going to wait for the 400 hr change as recommended, but wasn't clear in my hand so figured I had to do it now. Now I'm thinking change now and change again in 50 hrs and see what's happening. But then the question of the post, should I change the other filter too or wait.

Figured they were separated using the same sump. But.. seems odd, as if one filter is changed and not the other, then that unchanged filter is just potentially contaminating the fluid.

Also, need to know what size is bolt on screen if anyone knows. I don't have that large mm socket, so have to go out and buy to see if I have loaded metal in the screen. I'm guessing that'll tell me just how bad the situation is.

Interestingly, I've not had any issues with the HST drive or hydraulic bucket. Maybe more noise on drive, but only noticed in high gear, and it was similar at 99 hrs when purchased. And it was clear when purchased. And not other than UDT2 has been used in it. Or actually since it is a 2014 model, it may have had UDT only in it.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Figured they were separated using the same sump. But.. seems odd, as if one filter is changed and not the other, then that unchanged filter is just potentially contaminating the fluid.

Also, need to know what size is bolt on screen if anyone knows. I don't have that large mm socket, so have to go out and buy to see if I have loaded metal in the screen. I'm guessing that'll tell me just how bad the situation is.

Interestingly, I've not had any issues with the HST drive or hydraulic bucket. Maybe more noise on drive, but only noticed in high gear, and it was similar at 99 hrs when purchased. And it was clear when purchased. And not other than UDT2 has been used in it. Or actually since it is a 2014 model, it may have had UDT only in it.

Filters don't contaminate the fluid, they just quit allowing the proper amount of fluid to pass though it.

Sounds like you need to change all the fluid and filters at one time to get a good starting baseline.
Make sure you pull all the drains, there will be 4 or 5 of them.
I would also drain and refill the front axle while I was at it.

Sorry can't tell you the size of that screen, I tend to use a really good pipe wrench to pull them out.

 

[rlawrence]

Filters don't contaminate the fluid, they just quit allowing the proper amount of fluid to pass though it.

Sounds like you need to change all the fluid and filters at one time to get a good starting baseline.
Make sure you pull all the drains, there will be 4 or 5 of them.
I would also drain and refill the front axle while I was at it.

Sorry can't tell you the size of that screen, I tend to use a really good pipe wrench to pull them out.

So I was wondering about the performance of the filter and more particularly what has caused the hyd oil to go dark. I do not do a lot of heavy work, mostly mowing pastures and some dirt/gravel/mulch spreading. I'm wondering now if age had anything to do with it. There is no time interval recommended in the manual.

Oil was changed at 100 hrs when I bought it, because it'd been sitting for a few years and didn't know if first owner did the trans filter change. At that time the oil was clear, so the dealer said. Filter was changed then, and presumably also at 50 hrs by first owner, as he was so particular he even touched up the paint scuffs on the bucket. Manual says change oil only at 400 hrs with 200 hrs after second filter change. So thus why I had planned to change oil and filter at 300 hrs. So essentially I'm doing 400 hr service now at 300 hrs, 10 years of service.

Summary:
50hrs.... filter change (unconfirmed)
100 hrs... filter and oil change by Kubota dealer service (assume per specs)
300 hrs today and completing 400 hr service.

Seems my biggest mistake was thinking the fluid was clear by looking at the dipstick only. In the future, I'll remove the filter and let some drain to check condition of fluid, starting at 350 hrs in 50 hr intervals. Or should I do more often? Any other diagnosis and/or preventative going forward will be much appreciated.

P.S. I'm in GA so totally different weather down here if that makes any differences.
...also ordered test kit from Blackstone Labs just to get more data, though I didn't use totally clean bucket, as it was an afterthought.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

So I was wondering about the performance of the filter and more particularly what has caused the hyd oil to go dark. I do not do a lot of heavy work, mostly mowing pastures and some dirt/gravel/mulch spreading. I'm wondering now if age had anything to do with it. There is no time interval recommended in the manual.

Oil was changed at 100 hrs when I bought it, because it'd been sitting for a few years and didn't know if first owner did the trans filter change. At that time the oil was clear, so the dealer said. Filter was changed then, and presumably also at 50 hrs by first owner, as he was so particular he even touched up the paint scuffs on the bucket. Manual says change oil only at 400 hrs with 200 hrs after second filter change. So thus why I had planned to change oil and filter at 300 hrs. So essentially I'm doing 400 hr service now at 300 hrs, 10 years of service.

Summary:
50hrs.... filter change (unconfirmed)
100 hrs... filter and oil change by Kubota dealer service (assume per specs)
300 hrs today and completing 400 hr service.

Seems my biggest mistake was thinking the fluid was clear by looking at the dipstick only. In the future, I'll remove the filter and let some drain to check condition of fluid, starting at 350 hrs in 50 hr intervals. Or should I do more often? Any other diagnosis and/or preventative going forward will be much appreciated.

P.S. I'm in GA so totally different weather down here if that makes any differences.
...also ordered test kit from Blackstone Labs just to get more data, though I didn't use totally clean bucket, as it was an afterthought.

Your issue is not hours of use, your issue is time that the fluid is in the tractor.
Your humidity plays a major role in the degrading of your fluid.
I tend to use an hourly or time when I decide to change fluids.

Hydraulic fluid gets dark from oxidation interacting with the metals and other materials.
If the fluid was not the proper or high quality fluid, it will turn acidic and break down quicker than high quality fluid.

 

[rlawrence]

Your issue is not hours of use, your issue is time that the fluid is in the tractor.
Your humidity plays a major role in the degrading of your fluid.
I tend to use an hourly or time when I decide to change fluids.

Hydraulic fluid gets dark from oxidation interacting with the metals and other materials.
If the fluid was not the proper or high quality fluid, it will turn acidic and break down quicker than high quality fluid.

yeah, figured maybe time. But kubota has no comment about time to change, just hours. and how does moisture get into a closed system?

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

yeah, figured maybe time. But kubota has no comment about time to change, just hours. and how does moisture get into a closed system?

It's not a closed system, there are vents in the system, they are under the seat on most models.

 

[MOOTS]

Did one of your filters have a magnet in it? What’d it look like?

I live in Canton and work in Woodstock. Where in Acworth are you?

 

[rlawrence]

Did one of your filters have a magnet in it? What’d it look like?

I live in Canton and work in Woodstock. Where in Acworth are you?

A magnet? I pulled the screen and there was no metal on it. Rubbed it with a magnet to verify. No gunk either. I guess I'm ok.

Turns out that UDT2 is not really clear. If you pour it in a white bucket, you'll see it is actually quite opaque. Not black, but definitely not clear either. I'm guessing the dark fluid is caused mostly by age breakdown. After buttoning everything back up and new filters and inspecting screen, it seems to be running fine and not noisy. Interestingly it was a bit whiny after start up. I'm guessing it takes a while for the oil to get circulating properly? Overall not a bad situation as of today. We'll see how it looks in 50 hrs after mowing the next couple months. I think I'll be changing fluid no more than 100 hrs and/or annually now though. Cheap and easy thing to prevent costly issues.

 

[rlawrence]

It's not a closed system, there are vents in the system, they are under the seat on most models.

I'll have to look for that. Don't readily see it yet.
So how much time should the fluid sit in the tractor? Does it need to be an annual change? One would think Kubota would say so, if so.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

A magnet? I pulled the screen and there was no metal on it. Rubbed it with a magnet to verify. No gunk either. I guess I'm ok.

Turns out that UDT2 is not really clear. If you pour it in a white bucket, you'll see it is actually quite opaque. Not black, but definitely not clear either. I'm guessing the dark fluid is caused mostly by age breakdown. After buttoning everything back up and new filters and inspecting screen, it seems to be running fine and not noisy. Interestingly it was a bit whiny after start up. I'm guessing it takes a while for the oil to get circulating properly? Overall not a bad situation as of today. We'll see how it looks in 50 hrs after mowing the next couple months. I think I'll be changing fluid no more than 100 hrs and/or annually now though. Cheap and easy thing to prevent costly issues.

Are you using SUDT2 or UDT as UDT2 has been obsolete for 10+ years.

Kubota doesn't state when fluid needs to be changed when not used, I'm a two year kind of guy.

Here is the vent:

 

[rlawrence]

Your issue is not hours of use, your issue is time that the fluid is in the tractor.
Your humidity plays a major role in the degrading of your fluid.
I tend to use an hourly or time when I decide to change fluids.

Hydraulic fluid gets dark from oxidation interacting with the metals and other materials.
If the fluid was not the proper or high quality fluid, it will turn acidic and break down quicker than high quality fluid.

So a friend says I missed including and important fact about this situation. He claims I cooked the fluid when my radiator failed. Ooops? More likely the reason for the dark oil?

It ran hot for ...don't know how long. Lost the radiator. Luckily I had been stopping every 10-15 min to cut wood, then startup to push the brush. It never ran rough or faulted in any way during that time. One of the limbs was pushed up in under the radiator and pushed that flimsy aluminum plate up and broke off the drain hose. All the fluid went out the bottom, so I never smelled anything; and who looks at the temp gauge all the time when working? I will from now on for sure. Replaced radiator and changed all fluids; 400 hr service at 300 instead. After starting up and running, everything seems to working properly and no noises. Damn good Kubota engine!

 

[rlawrence]

Are you using SUDT2 or UDT as UDT2 has been obsolete for 10+ years.

Kubota doesn't state when fluid needs to be changed when not used, I'm a two year kind of guy.

Here is the vent:

View attachment 148320

Yes "Super"UDT2. too many acronyms now a days. Thanks on the vent.

 

[MOOTS]

A magnet? I pulled the screen and there was no metal on it. Rubbed it with a magnet to verify. No gunk either. I guess I'm ok.

Yes, a magnet. This is from my MX.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Yes, a magnet. This is from my MX.
View attachment 148337

I don't think the B3300 has a magnet on the filter.

 

[MOOTS]

I don't think the B3300 has a magnet on the filter.

Strange. Thought that was common across the whole line with Kubota.

 

[rlawrence]

Yes, a magnet. This is from my MX.
View attachment 148337

My filters showed no sign of metal, including the screen. I wonder, does your old unit have a screen? Maybe that's why the used a magnet in the filter?