Wintertime hydraulics not working and related maintenance question

[Hman0217]

Did you use UDT or UDT2?

It sounds like the first thing to do is get the tractor in a warm place (aka shop), get it thawed out by running the tractor for a while and see if things start moving. If there is a lot of water in the system, this is not ideal, so I would only do it enough to test. For larger hydraulic systems, I would pull a sample and have it tested for % water. Based on testing after things warm up, yours is likely small enough to just go ahead and fully drain and reservice with New or fluid and filter. Yes, if it was my tractor I would do a flush with a cheaper hydraulic fluid that meets the API first. Definitely a 'pay now or pay mor later' scenario.

No offense intended, but it astonishes me how many small tractor owners try to do things on the cheap then get upset when things go sideways.

No offense taken. And I did use udt2. The cheap stuff would just be for the flush

 

[Hman0217]

It takes a long time to thaw out any ice inside a tractor. A few hours at 35 degrees is not going to be enough to completely thaw out all the inside of your tractor and get it all drained out properly.

That's reasonable. I was thinking I would supplement that by blowing heat on it but actually they moved the forecast down again and I don't see any thaw happening in the next two weeks. (This is more like what our winters uses to be once upon a time and it's strangely refreshing.)

Does anybody see any issues in just leaving this parked until it thaws out? I can't imagine we won't have a break in the cold in the next month or so.

 

[WI_Hedgehog]

...I don't have a warm garage but Sunday it's supposed to hit 35. Tomorrow I'm getting fluid and extra filters and...

I'm in Wisconsin where some days -10F is the high...

1. Get 12-mil vapor barrier plastic at the home store, or at least a big plastic tarp that covers the whole tractor with room to spare. Plastic lets light in, tarps last longer.
2. Get a milkroom space heater or two (on-sale during Summer is the best time to buy them, they're durable steel and generally cheap).
3. Get a 12-gauge extension cord long enough to go from a 15-amp outdoor outlet or indoor if you have to, though preferably two 20-amp circuits.
4. Get some bricks or rocks or round steel rods, or... just something to hold the plastic (or tarp) down.
5. Put the ROPS up and drape the tarp over the ROPS. Secure it to the ground to make it "air tight."
6. Point the space heater(s) so they swirl air somewhat under but more "around" the tractor. This avoids hot-spots in the "tractor tent." Turn on the space heaters.
7. Plan to take what you need inside the "tent" quickly, because getting in/out sucks.
8. You might need a bit of framing for convenience, poplar branches are strong, light, and easily tied together with parachute cord. 2"x3"s are used between sheets of steel and given away for free at steel service centers.

There are ways of making this work where there's not electricity, but you need clear plastic instead of a tarp to make a tent, and on the windblown side put a "solar blanket" inside the plastic so it doesn't blow off. Then build a fire on the other side with just the plastic about 6-8' away from the "tent." The fire radiates heat into the tent, the solar blanket reflects the heat on the windy side so the radiant heat isn't "lost," and the wind keeps the fire from blowing onto the plastic (hopefully, sometimes the wind direction changes and you're screwed).

Generally someone who's good at this can sometimes get the temperature up to about 85°F inside if it's 15F outside (within an hour), but at 0°F things are a lot harder to get right--however 65F is still really nice. The humidity builds up though, so there's no "free lunch."

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

That's reasonable. I was thinking I would supplement that by blowing heat on it but actually they moved the forecast down again and I don't see any thaw happening in the next two weeks. (This is more like what our winters uses to be once upon a time and it's strangely refreshing.)

Does anybody see any issues in just leaving this parked until it thaws out? I can't imagine we won't have a break in the cold in the next month or so.

No if it's already frozen a little while longer frozen is not going to change anything.

 

[Hman0217]

Well here is what the hat filter looks like. I'm not seeing ice crystals. It's 30 degrees today so maybe I waited too long as it was a lot colder yesterday and most of the week for that matter

That said, I fired it up and...the pedal still ain't moving the tractor and the stick still ain't moving the bucket. What are the odds that both pumps failed simultaneously on a tractor with 200 hours on it? How do I test that?

Also, could there be an ice crystals clog upstream of the filter somewhere?

 

[Hman0217]

Well here is what the hat filter looks like. I'm not seeing ice crystals. It's 30 degrees today so maybe I waited too long as it was a lot colder yesterday and most of the week for that matter

That said, I fired it up and...the pedal still ain't moving the tractor and the stick still ain't moving the bucket. What are the odds that both pumps failed simultaneously on a tractor with 200 hours on it? How do I test that?

Also, could there be an ice crystals clog upstream of the filter somewhere?
View attachment 146962

Attached is a picture of the oil that dropped out after I shut the machine back off and pulled the filter off a second time

 

[GreensvilleJay]

that 'oil' sure looks like it's mixed with water, to me....
hopefully you can get it into a garage, get tractor real warm, drain all oil.
It'll day a day or 2 ,as 'internal' will be frozen even though 'shell' is warm.

 

[#40Fan]

Yep, plenty of water mixed in there. I'd pull the plug where it sits and let it drain into a bucket for weeks on end, if needed, until it warms up.

 

[ayak]

Well here is what the hat filter looks like. I'm not seeing ice crystals. It's 30 degrees today so maybe I waited too long as it was a lot colder yesterday and most of the week for that matter

That said, I fired it up and...the pedal still ain't moving the tractor and the stick still ain't moving the bucket. What are the odds that both pumps failed simultaneously on a tractor with 200 hours on it? How do I test that?

Also, could there be an ice crystals clog upstream of the filter somewhere?
View attachment 146962

Pure speculation here but just pushing that type of viscosity (icy water-flavored SUDT2) is likely every bit the issue as an ice crystal in a tight nook or cranny. The resulting backpressure from that goo must be tremendous.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

I guess you missed where I said DO NOT run it.
All your going to do is damage things if you haven't already.
If the HST filter did not pull all the water out, the HST being damaged is very likely.
If you have damaged both hydraulic systems, start looking at new tractors because repairs are going to run you approximately $15K at minimum.

Like others have said the fluid looks packed with water.
If you want validation drain into a container and warm it up and look for separation of the fluid.

 

[Hman0217]

I guess you missed where I said DO NOT run it.
All your going to do is damage things if you haven't already.
If the HST filter did not pull all the water out, the HST being damaged is very likely.
If you have damaged both hydraulic systems, start looking at new tractors because repairs are going to run you approximately $15K at minimum.

Like others have said the fluid looks packed with water.
If you want validation drain into a container and warm it up and look for separation of the fluid.

I did hear you but the reason I turned it on was that the tractor mechanic at the dealership where I got the tractor advised me to lift the bucket and the rear, unplug and then lower after I start draining in order to purge what's in the cylinders front and rear. So I was hoping To do exactly that.

Also...should I even bother to start draining while the temps are still below freezing?

 

[The Evil Twin]

Also...should I even bother to start draining while the temps are still below freezing?

In my opinion- yes. It certainly won't hurt anything. It can only help get more out.
I saw someone suggest "tenting" the tractor with plastic and putting heaters under it. Not a bad idea. Harbor Freight has inexpensive portable garages that would be more than 1 time use. Combined with a diesel heater (web search them) it would speed up the process if you are stuck below freezing.

 

[Hugo Habicht]

Also...should I even bother to start draining while the temps are still below freezing?

How is the water getting into the hydraulic oil the first place? That system should be fully sealed. Does this tractor have an oil cooler with a heat exchanger to the water side perhaps?

 

[Hman0217]

How is the water getting into the hydraulic oil the first place? That system should be fully sealed. Does this tractor have an oil cooler with a heat exchanger to the water side perhaps?

Per my opening post, I made the horrific mistake a year ago of adding hydraulic oil that had been sitting outside in a Five gallon pail and SOMEHOW got water in it. I drained it immediately, left it open overnight and refilled it.

I can only conclude that this was inadequate.

So this time, I am going to do that process twice but also make sure I can purge any fluid in the front and back ends. I currently have the backhoe detached so I'm hoping it has its own separate drain plug Incase it has its own water in it.

I do feel like an ass doing this to this beautiful tractor but anyway, here we are...

 

[TheOldHokie]

The loader valve on my old B7200 is prone to freezing. Takes a considerable time for it to thaw on its own but a construction torpedo heater aimed af it will do it in just a couplw minutes.

Dan

 

[nbryan]

In SE Manitoba here. -30C winter nights are not unusual.
So for a COLD morning start, this is my B2650HSD startup routine:
(note - I now use 5w-40 Rotella T6 synth engine oil year round. Makes cold starts better than 10W oils)

1. First, when I park the tractor after use I set the rpm to around 1250 rpm before shutting it off.

2. Plug in B2650 block heater for about an hour for winter cold starts. That's helping the coolant/block warm a bit, not the engine or hydraulics oils. More than an hour is useless, it's a very small engine.

3. 10-15 seconds glow plug before cranking over to start.

4. Fire up and wait until engine rpm stabilizes in a minute or 2. Maintain about 1200-1300rpm warmup rpm.

5. Put HST trans in neutral. Press down slowly forward on HST pedal and the hydraulic oil will start pumping through without transmission back pressure, note small rpm drop and engine sound change as cold oil gets circulated and warmed a bit. 2-3 minutes. Release pedal.

6. Then I GENTLY and slowly engage the loader hydraulics and operate it through a couple of cylinder in-out cycles.

7. Put the transmission into LOW range and begin slowly moving around for a minute or two to wake up the rest of the moving parts, in 2wd at first if 4wd not needed.

8. Then operate under load at about half power until that temp gauge shows a few bars at least, then:

GIVE 'ER.

 

[Hugo Habicht]

I do feel like an ass doing this to this beautiful tractor but anyway, here we are...

Ok, sorry must have missed that part with the water in the drum. Doesn't matter, you habe to deal with it now.

I did not read everything but since you have a water oil emulsion now the water is basically everywhere, in the pump, drive, cylinders....

I have to admit I do not have a clue about hydraulics but you have to drain all the oil, pump, drive, valves, cylinders, hoses. And I know you don't have a heated shed, but as far as I can see this is what you need. With frozen water in parts you only make the task more difficult, if not impossible.

In order to remove all water you have to drain the cylinders too. If you only drain parts of the system it leaves a proportion of water in only increasing the number of oil changes required.

Very unfortunate that this happened and I wish you good luck with the operation and that you get your tractor back into action soon !

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

I did hear you but the reason I turned it on was that the tractor mechanic at the dealership where I got the tractor advised me to lift the bucket and the rear, unplug and then lower after I start draining in order to purge what's in the cylinders front and rear. So I was hoping To do exactly that.

Also...should I even bother to start draining while the temps are still below freezing?

Your dealership is feeding you some very possible expensive advice.
That advice about draining the cylinders is pretty worth less!
If you really want to get fluid out of the cylinders you would need to disconnect the lines at the cylinder and cycle them to get the fluid out.
The cylinders will get purged in plenty of time when you get it working properly.

Yes get it to a place where you can drain it, open the drains with pans under them and let them drain.
Tenting and heating it if you can't get it in a shop is a really good idea, I've done it.

 

[Hman0217]

Update: today is started draining the fluid. Man is it goopy. Nice smooth stream and then a few pasty white chunks. I can only assume those are ice chunks. We're right around 32 today and below freezIng nights but we've got a stretch of several days of high 30s to low 40s coming at the end of this next week so I'm leaving this open for the next ten days or so.

More to follow then

 

[rudder35]

I think I would cover it with an electric blanket and layers of visqueen.