Creep / Leak? down. B1630 loader on B7100HST-B

[TheOldHokie]

OK, I'm understanding more. SS shipped me plugs and I will test to confirm the (Very Likely) problem is the control valve leaking.

Today I moved 6 logs from a big maple that came down: about 24" by 48" pieces moved to buck up and split. I used a chain on the hook on top of the bucket and then picked them up into the bucket, one by one. Put 3 on a trailer and ferried 3 down the road to the yard and woodsplitter near the woodpile. The creep down was much more pronounced with the load. Had to keep blipping it back up.

So I'm looking at valves. The Summit valve looks good. HERE . My valve has two pressure hoses from the tractor side block, and one return line. Looks like:
View attachment 136714 View attachment 136715


Might I reuse fittings from the OLD valve on the new one?? Hmmmm..

Thanks for all the help!!

I am pretty dure the ports on the Summit valve are all a different size than the OEM valve:

Summit Valve:

P, T, and N are SAE-10.
Work ports are SAE-08

IIRC the ports on the OEM valve are one size smaller

My bet is bucket droop is a bad cylinder not the valve

If you are getting boom leakdown it is probably the valve.

Test and verify before replacing anything.

Dan

 

[TerryKing]

Hi Dan and the group,
Received the plugs from SS and I will do that test today...

ASSuming the valve is the likely culprit, I need to better understand connections.
I understand the 2 work connections for cylinder groups. But there are 3 more...

One is return to main fluid reservoir/transmission etc.

TWO come from the block on side of engine.. ?Are those both pressure? Basically the same?

If I were to get a valve like this (PS: Anything bad about this one??)
https://www.amazon.com/marddpair-Hydraulic-Directional-Control-Tractors/dp/B098JXNLCP/ref=sr_1_4

? Where would the return come from??

And Acronym Challenge: "BSPP Double Acting?? and from previous post: " P, T, and N are SAE-10. "

Thanks! Terry

 

[TheOldHokie]

Hi Dan and the group,
Received the plugs from SS and I will do that test today...

ASSuming the valve is the likely culprit, I need to better understand connections.
I understand the 2 work connections for cylinder groups. But there are 3 more...

One is return to main fluid reservoir/transmission etc.

TWO come from the block on side of engine.. ?Are those both pressure? Basically the same?

If I were to get a valve like this (PS: Anything bad about this one??)
https://www.amazon.com/marddpair-Hydraulic-Directional-Control-Tractors/dp/B098JXNLCP/ref=sr_1_4

? Where would the return come from??

And Acronym Challenge: "BSPP Double Acting?? and from previous post: " P, T, and N are SAE-10. "

Thanks! Terry

BSPP = British Standard Pipe Parallel

This is the thread type used for the ports. BSPP is the world's most common standard except in the US where we have our own national standard. You can purchase BSPP port adapters so it's not a problem but they cost considerably more than the corresponding SAE port adapters so it adds considerably to that low price. Its also confusing to anyone working on the machine. It's actually cheaper and less confusing to buy that same valve with SAE ports.

DOUBLE ACTING = controls two way cylinders

That is what you have and need.

The three connections to the tractor are:

PUMP

That is the rightmost hose on the outlet block and it delivers pressure out to the P port on the valve

POWER BEYOND (PB)

Also known as High Pressure Carry Over (HPCO) this is the leftmost hose on the outlet block. It carries return pressure from the N port on the valve back to the tractor to power the three point. You must install a power beyond conversion sleecve in the N port to use this function.

TANK

This is the hose going to the top of the transmission. It carries low pressure return oil from the cylinders back to the reservoir. It connects to the T port on the valve.

Dan

 

[TheOldHokie]

Hi Dan and the group,
Received the plugs from SS and I will do that test today...

ASSuming the valve is the likely culprit, I need to better understand connections.
I understand the 2 work connections for cylinder groups. But there are 3 more...

One is return to main fluid reservoir/transmission etc.

TWO come from the block on side of engine.. ?Are those both pressure? Basically the same?

If I were to get a valve like this (PS: Anything bad about this one??)
https://www.amazon.com/marddpair-Hydraulic-Directional-Control-Tractors/dp/B098JXNLCP/ref=sr_1_4

? Where would the return come from??

And Acronym Challenge: "BSPP Double Acting?? and from previous post: " P, T, and N are SAE-10. "

Thanks! Terry

Here is a European made version of your Chinese made valve. It has North American (SAE) ports.

Monoblock Hydraulic Directional Control Valve, 2 Spool, 11 GPM

FREE SHIPPING Monoblock Hydraulic Directional Control Valve, 2 Spool, 11 GPM

summit-hydraulics.com

Your OEM loader valve has a fourth float position on the boom spool and the Chinese valve does not. Here is the European valve with float

Monoblock Hydraulic Directional Control Valve, 2 Spool w/ Single Float Detent, 11 GPM

This Monoblock Hydraulic Directional Control Valve uses 1 Float & 1 "A" Spool. It has a capacity of 11 GPM. Free Shipping

summit-hydraulics.com

The OEM valve has a joystick handle.that is not going to work with any of those valves. Here is the European valve with integral joystick and a fourth float position - $249.

Hydraulic Directional Control Valve for Tractor Loader w/ Joystick, 2 Spool (Single Float Spool Optional), 11 GPM

FREE SHIPPING This Monoblock Hydraulic Directional Control Valve uses a Joystick, 2 Spools and has a capacity of 11 GPM. These valves are used to start and stop fluid flow into hydraulic cylinders or hydraulic motors.

summit-hydraulics.com

Finally, all of those valves require a power beyond sleeve that goes in the N port

Power Beyond Adapter Sleeve for P40G Series Summit Monoblock Valves

FREE SHIPPING Power Beyond Adapter Sleeve for P40G Series Summit Monoblock Valves

summit-hydraulics.com

Thats about as cheap as you are going to find .

Dan

 

[TerryKing]

Thanks, Dan! I did the test: Results here.. I'll be back about valves next...

Blocked up before plugs

Port to lift extend

(Trying to be sure I did this right!! Heres line to the lift cylinders "Extend")

valve port to Bucket "Retract"

Line on bucket cylinder "Retract"

Lines Plugged

OK, removed the support. Results:

LIFT cyclinders leaked down 1 inch of cylinder rod travel in 30 minutes !

BUCKET cylinders didn't move much initially, until I put my 170 pounds on the blade. After pulling bucket down to center of travel they leaked down 1 inch in 60 seconds.

* Don't ever bet on Dan being wrong, at least with Hydraulics.

SO I'm in the market for a valve, and Sometime 2 bucket cylinders. I'll be back next, when I look at all the lines again. Re: "Market" - Not absolute, but I'd prefer some Amazon valve because I have some credit there and not a lot of floating cash... SS does have adapters.

Thanks!





zz

 

[TheOldHokie]

Thanks, Dan! I did the test: Results here.. I'll be back about valves next...

Blocked up before plugs
View attachment 137115

Port to lift extend
View attachment 137116
(Trying to be sure I did this right!! Heres line to the lift cylinders "Extend")
View attachment 137117
valve port to Bucket "Retract"
View attachment 137118
Line on bucket cylinder "Retract"
View attachment 137119
Lines Plugged
View attachment 137120

OK, removed the support. Results:

LIFT cyclinders leaked down 1 inch of cylinder rod travel in 30 minutes !

BUCKET cylinders didn't move much initially, until I put my 170 pounds on the blade. After pulling bucket down to center of travel they leaked down 1 inch in 60 seconds.

* Don't ever bet on Dan being wrong, at least with Hydraulics.

SO I'm in the market for a valve, and Sometime 2 bucket cylinders. I'll be back next, when I look at all the lines again. Re: "Market" - Not absolute, but I'd prefer some Amazon valve because I have some credit there and not a lot of floating cash... SS does have adapters.

Thanks!

A new valve is not going to do much for the boom leak down but:

Summit does Amazon

Amazon.com

Dan has all the adapters you will need and shipping is a lot lower than SC. Also makes custom hoses.....

Dan

 

[TerryKing]

A new valve is not going to do much for the boom leak down but:

Summit does Amazon

Amazon.com

Dan has all the adapters you will need and shipping is a lot lower than SC. Also makes custom hoses.....

Dan

Dan, Thanks for your patience with all this..

Looking at that Summit valve.. connections:
----

No code has to be inserted here.
----
What is the G connector?

Would I need a power-beyond valve?

BTW, what connectors would my OEM casting have used ?

This is like explaining ENUM to a newbie

Regards, Terry

 

[TheOldHokie]

Dan, Thanks for your patience with all this..

Looking at that Summit valve.. connections:
----

No code has to be inserted here.
----
What is the G connector?

Would I need a power-beyond valve?

BTW, what connectors would my OEM casting have used ?

This is like explaining ENUM to a newbie

Regards, Terry

G is just the current ISO designation for BSPP. G1/2 and 1/2 BSPP mean the same thing.

Your OEM loader valve has a power beyond outlet port and the replacement must have we one as well. Thats the N port on the valves we have we discussed. For the N port to function as power beyond you need the power beyond conversion sleeve.

The OEM valve has SAE ports. Pretty sure the work ports are -6 size. Not sure about P, T, and PB (N) but my guess is -8.

Dan

 

[TerryKing]

Your OEM loader valve

Hmmm. My OEM valve does not have a FLOAT position for the lift.

Is it possible to connect a cross valve between the two connections to the lift cylinders to optionally Float those cylinders? Is this ever done?? Might be good for snow plowing? Hmmm...

 

[TheOldHokie]

Hmmm. My OEM valve does not have a FLOAT position for the lift.

Is it possible to connect a cross valve between the two connections to the lift cylinders to optionally Float those cylinders? Is this ever done?? Might be good for snow plowing? Hmmm...

If the valve is OEM it should have float. Post a picture of your valve.

Edit - pictures earlier in the thread. That valve looks like OEM and should have float. Move joystick to lower position and then push hard.

Dan

 

[TerryKing]

Move joystick to lower position and then push hard.

Hi Dan, pushed real hard and didnt travel differently... (Photo)

BUT: The joystick is worn. I'll ty to move the spool manually...

I DID find some interesting stuff. Seems it IS OEM,, HERE (post 13)

 

[TheOldHokie]

Hi Dan, pushed real hard and didnt travel differently... (Photo)

View attachment 139042

BUT: The joystick is worn. I'll ty to move the spool manually...

I DID find some interesting stuff. Seems it IS OEM,, HERE

Post a picture of the other end of the spool. Here is mine. Last two pictures show position of spool in pressure down and float.

Dan

 

[TerryKing]

... position of spool in pressure down and float.

THANKS for taking photos and taking the time to discuss this.

I will take photos but I think my valve looks just like yours. I will test the possible positions but it looks like my total spool travel is same as yours. Does yours FEEL different in those two active positions? IS there some kind of detent?
Regards, Terry

 

[TheOldHokie]

THANKS for taking photos and taking the time to discuss this.

I will take photos but I think my valve looks just like yours. I will test the possible positions but it looks like my total spool travel is same as yours. Does yours FEEL different in those two active positions? IS there some kind of detent?
Regards, Terry

The spool in mine is clearly further in.
There is a detent between pressure down and float.
Post a picture showing the backside like I did and we will know for sure.

Dan

 

[TheOldHokie]

Found one of your earler pics that clearly shows your valve has a fourth position (float detent) end cap.

Dan

 

[TerryKing]

your valve has a fourth position (float detent) end cap.

Sure does... Have a good photo from morning light that shows it..

AND testing in the driveway, there IS a difference between holding a smaller-movement down and an all-the-way ' FLOAT.. NO Detent though..

Saw some post about detent stuff that included small ball bearings escaping in the dirt :-( Have you had those things apart (taking bets)..??

And to try to never post without a photo, here's todays Logging work. I could barely lift/move one end of those maple logs myself. Trailer is back up to the house and log splitter. Just want to sharpen the saw first..

Thanks!

 

[TheOldHokie]

Sure does... Have a good photo from morning light that shows it..

AND testing in the driveway, there IS a difference between holding a smaller-movement down and an all-the-way ' FLOAT.. NO Detent though..

Saw some post about detent stuff that included small ball bearings escaping in the dirt :-( Have you had those things apart (taking bets)..??

And to try to never post without a photo, here's todays Logging work. I could barely lift/move one end of those maple logs myself. Trailer is back up to the house and log splitter. Just want to sharpen the saw first..

View attachment 139090

Thanks!

My valve has a noticeable "detent" but it no longer holds on its own. In fact in the 30 years I have owned it it has never held and I figured that was the way it was supposed to wotk.

Dan

 

[TerryKing]

My valve has a noticeable "detent" but it no longer holds on its own.

Hmm... I really would like to be able to hold Float for snowplowing. Guess there's always Bungees, able to override manually.

 

[TheOldHokie]

Hmm... I really would like to be able to hold Float for snowplowing. Guess there's always Bungees, able to override manually.

I plowed snow using the bucket for three decades holding it in float with one hand and steering with the other. It became second nature.

If you are feeling ambitious you could take the detent mechanism apart and "fix" it.

Dan

 

[TerryKing]

I plowed snow using the bucket for three decades holding it in float

Oh good, now I can ask an expert about snowplowing with the bucket!

Can you quickly talk about how you managed the bucket, what problems you saw etc,?? How about long passes vs shorter passes?

Most typical snow plows have some mechanism to keep from hitting the actual ground / gravel / concrete etc. Some are skid-like, some are round mushroom shape. I'm thinking of adding 1.5" thick (2x4 pressure treated) skids in the bucket holes after the snow flies. What surface were you on? I'm on gravel/dirt.

Thanks Again..