Electric Cars - 12 minutes worth watching

Daferris

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I remembered reading about this last year but just had a press release hit one of my news feeds today.
It's a short 1/4 mile demonstration/test project next to Ford's Michigan Central building.
Is it efficient or practical who knows that's the idea behind the test project so the kinks can be worked out and make the charging more efficient.
It does not go into detail of what the current delivered to the car is but in the case of my car. I get about 4 miles per kWh so if it just delivers enough to hold the battery level that alone may be all that's necessary. As the charge in the battery would be extended as long as your on a roadway with a system like this.
 

lynnmor

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I remembered reading about this last year but just had a press release hit one of my news feeds today.
It's a short 1/4 mile demonstration/test project next to Ford's Michigan Central building.
Is it efficient or practical who knows that's the idea behind the test project so the kinks can be worked out and make the charging more efficient.
It does not go into detail of what the current delivered to the car is but in the case of my car. I get about 4 miles per kWh so if it just delivers enough to hold the battery level that alone may be all that's necessary. As the charge in the battery would be extended as long as your on a roadway with a system like this.
A hundred years ago we had electric trolleys, I guess we are in a time warp.
 

GreensvilleJay

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60 years ago I rode in an battery powered milk delivery van
50 years ago I rode a LOT of electric trolleys
in 1967 the electric trains were decommissioned at the local quarry
One of the major problems with 'personal' BEVs is having to 'tweak' every part of the 'system' to get over 99.44% efficiency. I get nearly daily updates and reports of improvements where 0.05% is deemed GREAT but realistically ,a BEV in every garage ?, it ain't going to happen.
 

DustyRusty

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Let us not forget the electric trucks that picked up dirty diapers and dropped off clean ones. Those trucks were slow-moving and made frequent stops. The batteries in the rear were huge in size and extremely heavy. I often wondered back then why they had electric vehicles instead of gasoline-powered ones. Here I am 70 years later asking the same question wondering if I will ever get an answer.
 

lugbolt

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i have said it before, and i'll say it again

for those of you who are on the fence about such a big purchase, go buy yourself an electric golf cart. Use it a while. You'll quickly find out that the principles are identical. If you can put up with the challenges, maybe EV is for you. it is not for me, and I work on them.
 

wp6529

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i have said it before, and i'll say it again

for those of you who are on the fence about such a big purchase, go buy yourself an electric golf cart. Use it a while. You'll quickly find out that the principles are identical. If you can put up with the challenges, maybe EV is for you. it is not for me, and I work on them.
Or just rent a few different EVs for long weekends and see how they perform in your use.

I could use an EV for a portion of our transportation needs, but it could never replace my truck. An EV might save me $1,000/yr in fuel, so over 10 years that $10k savings in fuel sounds nice, but certainly doesn't come close to justifying the cost of an EV that is not capable of handling all my needs.
 

GreensvilleJay

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when you upgrade the 'panel' in your house for the charger, you'll probably spend more than the $10K in 'savings'..
and.. that $10K in savings,if not used above, will be used up replacing the battery AND then some more out of your wallet !

While 'your mileage may vary', NONE of the batteries in EVs 'like' cold weather',most lose 20% of 'range' Sadly no real world testing has been done. Simulations do NOT count.
 

wp6529

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when you upgrade the 'panel' in your house for the charger, you'll probably spend more than the $10K in 'savings'..
and.. that $10K in savings,if not used above, will be used up replacing the battery AND then some more out of your wallet !

While 'your mileage may vary', NONE of the batteries in EVs 'like' cold weather',most lose 20% of 'range' Sadly no real world testing has been done. Simulations do NOT count.
The electrical upgrade for a super duper charger is really misrepresented and over hyped by the anti EV folks. The reality is that a majority of EV users *do not need* a fast charger, and indeed fast chargers should only be used when absolutely necessary since the reduce battery life. Also your lower rate home charger will frequently be plenty to get you enough range to go somewhere with a high rate charger where you can complete your "fill up" for that longer than usual trip.

The cold weather is definitely an issue and you need to consider your climate and the real world range under your cold weather conditions to see if it will meet your needs. It is pretty much like sizing a backup generator for your home, you have to do a proper analysis of your needs first and not just blindly buy something.
 

GreensvilleJay

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There is no way the basic 'free' 120v 'plug in the wall' charger will recharge an EV overnight. It's limited to 15 amps. Everyone I know that have EVs(3 withing walking distance) have the 240 volt charger,so think 'electric dryer' 30A power, which is 4x the basic unit.
Either charger will not reduce battery life as the builtin computer optimizes charging rates,essentially to get as many electrons into the batteries as fast as they can,but as slow as they must. I've been 'energy harvesting' since the '60s, understand what's 'inside the box', and have done the 'math'.

I'm not antiEV, just fed up that 'they' don't yell the whole truth about EVs from mining lithium, real mileage, battery disposal fees, required power upgrades. If EVs are so good, why aren't don't you see in local delivery companies using them, city hall types, buses, etc.?
 

wp6529

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There is no way the basic 'free' 120v 'plug in the wall' charger will recharge an EV overnight. It's limited to 15 amps. Everyone I know that have EVs(3 withing walking distance) have the 240 volt charger,so think 'electric dryer' 30A power, which is 4x the basic unit.
Either charger will not reduce battery life as the builtin computer optimizes charging rates,essentially to get as many electrons into the batteries as fast as they can,but as slow as they must. I've been 'energy harvesting' since the '60s, understand what's 'inside the box', and have done the 'math'.

I'm not antiEV, just fed up that 'they' don't yell the whole truth about EVs from mining lithium, real mileage, battery disposal fees, required power upgrades. If EVs are so good, why aren't don't you see in local delivery companies using them, city hall types, buses, etc.?
Yes, the common, inexpensive 30A dryer receptacle is just fine for a majority of EV users. I never said a 15A or even 20A 120V receptacle was good for anything beyond a cordless drill charger. The very high speed chargers do indeed shorten battery life and should be avoided unless really needed for a particular trip.

I've long been a proponent of standardized pack change technology for EVs, something some other countries are deploying. Changing battery packs in electric forklifts has been quite common for decades, no reason it won't work well for on-road EVs. Standardized packs also eliminate much of the concern over battery replacement cost as that cost gets baked into the pack change "fill up" cost. This can work just like welding gas cylinders where you own a cylinder and can do whatever you want with it, and can also just exchange it for a full one and not deal with fill up times, periodic hydro testing, etc.

Not sure where you are, but I have seen EVs entering both municipal and private fleets. Plenty of rental EVs available as well.

The biggest obstacle to wide scale EV use is actually the anti-science anti-nuke minions and small distributed nukes are pretty much essential if we want to shift away from fossil fuels. Solar, wind, hydro and tidal are all great where applicable, but aren't going to be enough, especially when you include the electric demand from shifting cooking and heating away from gas and oil as well.
 

GreensvilleJay

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We'll never,ever see 'standardized' battery packs for EVs , for the same reason Dewalt won't fit Ryobi won't power Makita won't power Dewalt. Same as Ford rims don't fit Chevy or Nissan or dodge or.......
Heck TESLA have TWO different power connectors, so even they can't 'standardize'.

As for how to recharge them,none of the alternate sources have the capacity, small nukes could work but the 'grid' has to be upgraded at a HUGE cost,something Canada nor the USA can afford.
 

wp6529

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We'll never,ever see 'standardized' battery packs for EVs , for the same reason Dewalt won't fit Ryobi won't power Makita won't power Dewalt. Same as Ford rims don't fit Chevy or Nissan or dodge or.......
Heck TESLA have TWO different power connectors, so even they can't 'standardize'.

As for how to recharge them,none of the alternate sources have the capacity, small nukes could work but the 'grid' has to be upgraded at a HUGE cost,something Canada nor the USA can afford.
Yea, and we'll never see gov mandated standardized diagnostic ports on cars either. As I noted, there are other countries going the pack change route *now*, we're just behind the curve.

Small nukes are how you avoid having to rebuild the whole grid, it's called distributed generation. When you generate the power close to the point of consumption the grid is far less stressed.
 

GreensvilleJay

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but you still have to increase the wire size of the conductors to carry the current, and the transformers.
Already know from Ontario Hydro that if 3 of us decide to install 240V chargers, the common transformer has to be replaced. If all on my road installs along with proposed subdivision, 3ph power feeds have to be replaced to handle the amps.'Domino' effect. Sure put a nuke in Hamilton, feed from Sir Adam Beck is OK, but local grids need to be upgraded.

As for standard packs..several EVsnowblowers on the market, and while you can have 1-4 packs per machine, still can't 'mix and match' between machines.

Heck can't get car makers to use the same 12V battery, unlike semitractors....

Problem with 'packs' is when it's used up(disposal time) who pays for that ? Should be based on how much energy was used per vehicle, which is simple to do...but.man, that opens another 'can of worms'.
 

wp6529

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but you still have to increase the wire size of the conductors to carry the current, and the transformers.
Already know from Ontario Hydro that if 3 of us decide to install 240V chargers, the common transformer has to be replaced. If all on my road installs along with proposed subdivision, 3ph power feeds have to be replaced to handle the amps.'Domino' effect. Sure put a nuke in Hamilton, feed from Sir Adam Beck is OK, but local grids need to be upgraded.

As for standard packs..several EVsnowblowers on the market, and while you can have 1-4 packs per machine, still can't 'mix and match' between machines.

Heck can't get car makers to use the same 12V battery, unlike semitractors....

Problem with 'packs' is when it's used up(disposal time) who pays for that ? Should be based on how much energy was used per vehicle, which is simple to do...but.man, that opens another 'can of worms'.
In my rural area the small local coop utility recently did a rebuild with a big increase in capacity, they doubled the voltage, ran 3ph in areas that had been single phase and the conductor size increased substantially. Probably at least a 10X increase in capacity. Other utilities are doing similar.

Again, regulation makes short work of standardization, just like it did for OBD and OBD-II.

With welding gas cylinders we have long used a "pack swap" structure where you own a cylinder, but you can swap it for a full cylinder at any supplier with no fuss. The costs of the periodic hydro testing and the odd scrapped cylinder that fails testing are "baked in" to the cost for the exchange so no individual is ever hit with a big unexpected expense. This system has worked well for many decades and there is no reason it won't work equally well for standard EV battery packs.
 

lugbolt

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The electrical upgrade for a super duper charger is really misrepresented and over hyped by the anti EV folks. The reality is that a majority of EV users *do not need* a fast charger

The rate of charge is based on charger input, which is based on KW available from the source (the house usually). Rate of charge is expressed in the increase of available driving range per hour of charging. RPH. Range per hour.

So, on one of the EV's I'm dealing with, the RPH (amount of miles of range per hour of charge) is approx 1.2. 1.2 miles per hour of charging with your standard 110v charge input (normal 15A house receptacle). Note that they're all different, so do your research! And do not trust the manfuacturers, or the media because they are giving you inflated numbers that may or may not be truth-like always.

That means if you drive 20 miles it should take a little over 16 hours to replenish that 20 mile range.

If one were to install a L2 charge (which is 220/240v 50A, aka NEMA 650 as I remember), that rate drops in about 70% faster charge rate, so about 7 hours to replenish 20 miles' charge.

People who don't know ev, think of it this way. You drive a truck that gets 10mpg. You can typically go 200 miles on a tank of fuel if your vehicle holds 20 gallons. You run low on fuel and stop somewhere to get fuel (note I didn't say gas, because some of us drive oil burners). It takes, 10 minutes to put 20 gal of fuel into the tank. Then you can drive another 200 miles. Numbers used for examples only.

Now compare that to EV charge rates. Every EV has a different rate of miles per hour of charge. If you're shopping, you better research that. That rate is dependent on the KWh input (standard 110v is low KWh), the size of the battery pack, and the ambient temperature.

ambient temps play a big role as well. I have a chart that I use for work, was supplied by manufacturer but I am not sure I can share it publicly. Basically your driving range drops off significantly below 30 deg F. At 0-20 deg F, the "power" is significantly reduced. From -20-0, it will not go until the batteries warm up, which takes battery power. From -30 to -10 as I remember, charging time is drastically extended, because the charger is also powering the battery heaters. LUCKILY in this area we don't have temps like that, so most of our customers don't have to worry about it. However for all you yankees, y'all might have some considerations for EV's and extremely cold temps. I'd hate for you to buy one and then in the dead of winter (like right now), go out to your brand new EV and it won't go anywhere for hours until the batteries is warmed up enough for it to pull itself. No, I mean that the machine will stop you from going, the pedal does nothing but make the dash light up with all kinds of lights. So then you can be late for work, soccer practice, baseball practice, basketball games, late to school, late getting the kids to school 1 block away, etc.

So if you pull more out of the battery than you can put back in before you go to work the next day, which is certainly possible if you are on a 110v charge, then in a few days you'll be "out of gas". This is where range anxiety sets in. OMG my SOC "gauge" (SOC=state of charge) says I have 4 miles left and I need to get to work which is 35 miles away. Or, like this time of year, you might get into a traffic jam and SIT in your car for a few hours, then the battery is already low because your 110v charger won't recharge fast enough, you your car goes dead. Then what? You're not gonna run down to the corner store and buy a bucket of electricity to put back in your dead car. So EV owners, and potential owners will need to do a lot more planning.

that's where you really need a level 2 charger. It charges a lot faster, fast enough to replenish your lost charge for the most part, with today's battery tech. It'll get better with time but if they're gonna force it on us, it better get better sooner than later. This includes the reduction of power and charging with low temps--as said you'ns in the north is gonna hate these EV's if you don't already, unless things change. Soon.

Neighbor's got some kind of tesla, says "my range is 500 miles". LOL. No it's not. That 500 miles is under ideal conditions that really do not exist but maybe in mexifornia. Note that every day when he gets home, he plugs it in before he goes in the house to get dinner, then 30 minutes later he leaves in his gas powered pickup truck with the kids, to take em to soccer practice and whatever else they're into. He is usually back in 10 minutes, without the kids. Couple hours later goes & picks em up in the truck. Go to bed, get up eat breakfast, drop em off at school with the truck, come home get in tesla after unplugging and go to work. Repeat 5 days a week.

You see, I think your leaders are genius. They know that current ev technology can't totally replace gas burners. But they're gonna force it on everyone anyway. In doing so, (A) they're forcing people to spend money on another car, which carries sales taxes, registrations, fuel taxes, etc.....and (B) they're lining the pockets of stockholders and big corporations that make cars. That's a win-win situation for.....the government; while WE, the taxpayers and consumers, get duped. My apologies for getting political but that's my view.
 
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GreensvilleJay

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LB, you're NOT 'political', you're being a BUSINESSMAN ! 'Running' a country is no different than running a business, well shouldn't be. You have income( tax money) and expenses(programs,payroll). Any normal business KNOWS that 'sales' has be be greater than 'expenses', else you go broke and out of business. Governments ,for the most part ,don't operate that way. No such thing as a balanced budget,let alone PROFIT. Somehow, somewhere THAT got lost in 'how to run a country'.

Yes, people need a real good swift education on TRUE EV costs and operations as there is no way we'll ever see BEVs replace ICE on the roads. It'd be interesting to see how many EVs are in peoples driveways out west during this cold spell, some utilities are asking to REDUCE your electricity usage !
 

GreensvilleJay

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One big issue for Hertz was the 'turn around' time to rerent a car. Gas takes 10 minutes to refill if customer already didn't, BEV could take HOURS, so not rented out, not making any money for Hertz.
Another problem was repair costs as ANY damage 'near' the battery pack is $$$$$ to deal with.There's special jack mount 'rubbers' to start off........aluminum panels.....
 

fried1765

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i have said it before, and i'll say it again

for those of you who are on the fence about such a big purchase, go buy yourself an electric golf cart. Use it a while. You'll quickly find out that the principles are identical. If you can put up with the challenges, maybe EV is for you. it is not for me, and I work on them.
I do have a electric golf cart.
It carries me around my 11 acres.
I would not expect much more!